Prisoner abuse

[kittyjo]

I just scanned this thread and was thinking of the question 'Were you shocked?' re: prisoner abuse. Honestly, I really wasn't. The first words/feelings to enter my mind were_ disgust and disappointment but not surprise. Why? Well, I guess because historicaly things like this and much worse has happened before in times of war... Human nature to it's rawest core is not a pretty thing; and is why we need to seek the Lord daily.

Another reason I was not shocked, would be the times in which we live in, where things like alterative sub-cultures [ie. S&M clubs, cutters, pornography etc.] have been given a place of almost normalcy in the media, music videos, movies, fashion and so on. Torture and pain is being sold as pleasure... making it 'acceptable'. There was an article recently about teens who inflict injury to themselves inorder to cope with the pain they feel in their souls or to just FEEL anything at all... How sad. It also reminds me of the incident last year where senior high school girls were violently/sadisitically hazing the younger girls... With all of this taking place in anytown USA, how can I be shocked?

Even with the murder of Nick Berg, I think that these recent 'allegations' against our troops may help to fan the fire of hate/propoganda against the western world, but it is not the cause. These extremists have hated the western world for centuries... Why? Maybe because of the sucess of our societies, or maybe just because we are not like them or of them. We are the infidels and they don't seem to know what tolerance is. I think they are dangerous to all of us and to the ideals our country was founded on. May God bless us all!

[Guest yod]

we are dealing with an ancient culture in the Arab world. We have only known democracy and freedom here...and that only for the last 250 years. Remember? We were the FIRST nation to know freedom in the history of the world?

These people have existed since Noah....and they have always solved their differences by one tribe utterly wiping out another. Entire civilizations have been brutally extinguished and they don't bat an eye to wonder who was "abused" along the way.

We better face our enemy and defeat him soundly!

This is really, really, really serious folks.

[Guest charlie]

Senehu, I'm not a democratic liberal and don't have any use for them, so stop using those two words toward me as if I am... okay. I a conservative but no longer a republican.

We were told we were going in to retreive WMD, since then it's been changed to humanitarian reasons, now we've lost the high ground there too.

As far as WMDs go, why didn't Saddam use them on us instead of allowing himself to be trapped in a hole like a groundhog.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but this whole thing stinks to high heaven and I think I was lied to. I don't like being lied to.

Honestly, what do you really think is going to become of us in Iraq? Will we "win" or will we waste years and American lives and come home "losers" like we did in Vietnam? You gotta pick your battles.

[Guest LadyC]

charlie, if you really believe they were lies, could you please tell me who you feel is responsible for lying to you?

as for why saddam didn't use them, well the answer may just be that he'd already gotten them hidden or transported to syria by the time he needed them. but if you believe he didn't have them, you are forgetting history... RECENT history. he had them, he used them, and then he refused to cooperate with the UN.

the reason for this war was never first and foremost about going in and retrieving the wmd, it was first and foremost about standing behind the 17 resolutions that we'd made with saddam that he'd never honored... those resolutions being to either disarm or show proof that he had.

remember?

[Guest yod]

As far as WMDs go, why didn't Saddam use them on us instead of allowing himself to be trapped in a hole like a groundhog.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but this whole thing stinks to high heaven and I think I was lied to. I don't like being lied to.

then blame the French and the Germans. They were buying Saddam time to get those weapons into Syria because they were bribing Iraq for cheap oil through the knowledge and complicity of Koffi Annan and the UN's "oil for food" program.

Saddam got all the weapons out and then dared us to come in thinking Bush wouldn't have the will to go against international pressure. He figured wrong.

But I specifically remember Bush saying that it didn't matter whether he still had them or not before going in. This was about shutting down a regime that supported terrorism and we ALL supported that. Now that the going has gotten tough almost 40% of Americans are ready to cut & run? That would be our last mistake.

Honestly, what do you really think is going to become of us in Iraq? Will we "win" or will we waste years and American lives and come home "losers" like we did in Vietnam? You gotta pick your battles.

It completely depends on our resolve to persevere. That is why I get upset with those who demoralize our troops with their over-reaction to Democratic Pary incitement, imbalance, and disinformation. (errr...LIES!)

but that sentence shows me that you really don't understand our enemy, Charlie. It's not like we can just say, "ok...we quit. Sorry about all that....we'll go home and be quiet now"

They want your head, charlie. Are you ready to surrender it?

[Guest charlie]

Kittyjo you make some excellent points. In light of some of the uncomfortable truths you mentioned about our society I don't think God is gonna bless us.

Yod, if they've existed since the days of Noah with brutality as part of their make-up what makes you think we can outlast them and gain a victory over them,,,,,on their own soil?

Seems to me they should stay there, in a culture that is theirs and we should stay here on our own continent in our own country among our own people. I'm still stunned that terrorists who hate us were allowed to roam about freely, and take pilot training IN OUR COUNTRY.

Yod, you're right, this is really, really serious. We need to bring our army home and battan down the hatches and think thru this carefully and decide what we should do, that will be most effective and beneficial for us. I don't think the President and his subordinates gave enough thought to what to do after ousting Saddam. We don't have enough patience and it hurts us and causes young people to die before their lives have barely begun.

[Guest yod]

Yod, if they've existed since the days of Noah with brutality as part of their make-up what makes you think we can outlast them and gain a victory over them,,,,,on their own soil?

you have totally missed the point, charlie.

That was our strategy until they came to OUR soil. Do you think that was an isolated one-time event and they are repentant about harming so many innocent people? (not all Americans, btw)

[Guest charlie]

charlie, if you really believe they were lies, could you please tell me who you feel is responsible for lying to you?

I think Bill Clinton and George Bush and both administrations are to blame. I do have to say in hindsight that I think our President was a little too eager to go back to Iraq. I was all gung-ho and patriotic after 9-11 and thought we should do something. I thought we were right, and still do, for going into Afghanistan that's where OsamaBinLaden was.,,, I was puzzled about Iraq at first but figured we "had the goods" on them. I don't believe that now. It seems pretty obvious that our president was bound and determined to go in there no matter what.

Why would Saddam ship those WMDs elsewhere, get captured, and lose his dictatorship if he had weapons to use on us, his enemy. Why wouldn't he think GWB would invade him, Bush Sr. did and Saddam tried to have him assinated later on.

I do think I understand our enemy to a point. I also think I have come to understand some things about our own government that some people don't want to face. Our government meddles too much in foreign affairs. Our forefathers warned against this, we should have listened.

Edited May 12, 2004 by charlie

[senerhu]

Senehu, I'm not a democratic liberal and don't have any use for them, so stop using those two words toward me as if I am... okay. I a conservative but no longer a republican.

Charlie, did you see my apology to you in the other thread? I mean it...brother..

I may be too angry to post now, maybe I should have my tongue cut out to keep me from sinning...you suppose? (or at least my fingers chopped off)

[senerhu]

Why would Saddam ship those WMDs elsewhere, get captured, and lose his dictatorship if he had weapons to use on us, his enemy. Why wouldn't he think GWB would invade him, Bush Sr. did and he did try to have him assinated later on.

my guess is, saddam had syria hold them for him (they're bathist also) with the idea he would out wait the americans, then regain power and continue there development...