Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

I can't vote, because the poll is biased and ill-informed.

"Daisy" is not a neutral term as TULIP is, but rather is almost always used in some pejorative fashion by Calvinists. Further, some of those apply only to the Wesleyan variant of Arminianism.

Why don't you just explain what it is about either position you hold to? There are a lot of posts here but if you take the time to read some of them you may find that there are many that do not fit the mold of the poll question. Try reading at least the last couple pages if you have not done so already.

And welcome to WB

LT

[Guest Norrin Radd]

I can't vote, because the poll is biased and ill-informed.

"Daisy" is not a neutral term as TULIP is, but rather is almost always used in some pejorative fashion by Calvinists. Further, some of those apply only to the Wesleyan variant of Arminianism.

Why don't you just explain what it is about either position you hold to? There are a lot of posts here but if you take the time to read some of them you may find that there are many that do not fit the mold of the poll question. Try reading at least the last couple pages if you have not done so already.

And welcome to WB

LT

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm generally Arminian, with a sprinkling of Semi-Pelagian, plus I agree with the East and the Pre-Augustine West in rejecting the notion that "original sin" includes "inherited guilt."

While I find that there are various Scriptures that are incompatible with Calvinism, the core of the matter for me is regeneration. It is clear to me that faith precedes and produces regeneration/rebirth, precisely the opposite of the Calvinist position. This is also something that keeps me from completely embracing an entirely Pelagius-free Arminianism. Arminius was still Augustinian enough to believe that Post-Fall man is so corrupted as to be unable to even respond to God, and so posited a universal "prevenient grace" that not only "enlightened" and "convicted," but also was almost-regenerative. I agree with both Calvin and Arminius that we do not take the initiative in salvation, nor do we contribute anything of merit (except in the John 6:29 sense that suggests "belief" can be meritorious), and so I agree that a prior action of God ("prevenient grace" in Arminian terms) is necessary. I believe this grace is extended to all, but that only those who hear the Gospel and respond in faith will be saved.

I currently identify more with "Classical" or "Reformation" Arminianism than with Wesleyan Arminianism. I've read Picirilli's book, Grace, Faith, and Free Will, and am just starting F. Leroy Forlines' book, Classical Arminianism. Since I noticed Roger Olsen recommends Tom Oden's book, The Transforming Power of Grace as the best systematic presentation of Arminianism, and since I know Oden is a Wesleyan, I hope to pick up that tome later in the year. (I'm inclined toward the "corporate election" concept, but I'll see if that changes after I work through Forlines' extensive treatment of Rom. 9.)

Regarding "Daisy" or "DAISY" -- gives one version. A careless reading could leave the impression that the Remonstrants themselves chose the label, but observation of the adversarial tone of most of the name of the "petals" of the DAISY later in the article shows that it was concocted by critics.

Another version is not an acronym, but merely a mockery of the Wesleyan view of apostasy: He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not..." It is based on the Wesleyan view that believers can abandon and regain their salvation over and over. This is contrary to Classical/Reformation Arminianism, which holds that believers are indeed free to abandon salvation, but such a choice is irreversible.

[His_disciple3]

there are scriptures that teach election and there are scriptures that teach free-will, to say that this is not true is simply denying scriptures, but t.u.l.i.p. is a man made doctrine that is not based on scriptures along, for as the great supper, three were asked into the supper which is like the Kingdom of God, and there was three that refused the invitation. And the master took their places and filled them with someone else and it is sumed up with "that these that were bidden will not partake of my supper(kingdom)" now In Isaiah 14:1 It says that God has yet to choose Israel, and this is between chapter 13 explaining the last days and before the rest of chapter 14 explaining the Judgement day, so it is Not God electing then judging, but rather God electing by the foreknowledge of the judgement, also if we could study election in detail one would see that it mostly refers to the Jews/Israelites, paul said that he went through all the he went through as far as beatings and stonings that the ELECT/ISRAEL might obtain salvation. when You have to say that the whole world that Jesus died for don't mean the whole world then you have just made a man made doctrine, and made scriptures fit your doctrine instead of making your doctrine fit scriptures, 1 John 2 that Jesus was Not just for our

(the Elect?) sins, but for the whole world!

Edited July 1, 2012 by His_disciple3

[larryt]

there are scriptures that teach election and there are scriptures that teach free-will, to say that this is not true is simply denying scriptures, but t.u.l.i.p. is a man made doctrine that is not based on scriptures along, for as the great supper, three were asked into the supper which is like the Kingdom of God, and there was three that refused the invitation. And the master took their places and filled them with someone else and it is sumed up with "that these that were bidden will not partake of my supper(kingdom)" now In Isaiah 14:1 It says that God has yet to choose Israel, and this is between chapter 13 explaining the last days and before the rest of chapter 14 explaining the Judgement day, so it is Not God electing then judging, but rather God electing by the foreknowledge of the judgement, also if we could study election in detail one would see that it mostly refers to the Jews/Israelites, paul said that he went through all the he went through as far as beatings and stonings that the ELECT/ISRAEL might obtain salvation. when You have to say that the whole world that Jesus died for don't mean the whole world then you have just made a man made doctrine, and made scriptures fit your doctrine instead of making your doctrine fit scriptures, 1 John 2 that Jesus was Not just for our

(the Elect?) sins, but for the whole world!

Could you please point out the verses that teach FREE-will? Man has a will but to say it is free is denying scripture as you say.

I have asked before and have not gotten an answer; what is man's will free to do, and what is it free from doing.

You say tulip is a man made doctrine not based on scripture.

I take it that you don't believe in total depravity as you believe in free will. There is a whole thread for this topic.

I take it that you do not believe in unlimited election as you indicate that is speaking about the Jews. In the NT scriptures that mention the elect, which ones of these are specifically speaking of the nation of Israel or the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and not the saints of God?

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect‘s sake those days shall be shortened.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect‘s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

With limited atonement why would Christ die for those He hates. 4 times it says God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Will Christ loose any that the Father gave to Him? If God chose us before the foundation of the world based on the fact that we would believe then God is a respecter of persons, those that are better than others at making the right choice.

Irresistible grace is probably the only one that is misnamed. I would say it is Invincible grace that really says that God will do everything that He sets out to do in the lives of His sheep.

As to the perseverance of the saints I am counting on Christ to do what He started to do and I am not counting on me. He is able to keep me from falling, He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him.

LT

[His_disciple3]

there are scriptures that teach election and there are scriptures that teach free-will, to say that this is not true is simply denying scriptures, but t.u.l.i.p. is a man made doctrine that is not based on scriptures along, for as the great supper, three were asked into the supper which is like the Kingdom of God, and there was three that refused the invitation. And the master took their places and filled them with someone else and it is sumed up with "that these that were bidden will not partake of my supper(kingdom)" now In Isaiah 14:1 It says that God has yet to choose Israel, and this is between chapter 13 explaining the last days and before the rest of chapter 14 explaining the Judgement day, so it is Not God electing then judging, but rather God electing by the foreknowledge of the judgement, also if we could study election in detail one would see that it mostly refers to the Jews/Israelites, paul said that he went through all the he went through as far as beatings and stonings that the ELECT/ISRAEL might obtain salvation. when You have to say that the whole world that Jesus died for don't mean the whole world then you have just made a man made doctrine, and made scriptures fit your doctrine instead of making your doctrine fit scriptures, 1 John 2 that Jesus was Not just for our

(the Elect?) sins, but for the whole world!

Could you please point out the verses that teach FREE-will? Man has a will but to say it is free is denying scripture as you say.

I have asked before and have not gotten an answer; what is man's will free to do, and what is it free from doing.

You say tulip is a man made doctrine not based on scripture.

I take it that you don't believe in total depravity as you believe in free will. There is a whole thread for this topic.

I take it that you do not believe in unlimited election as you indicate that is speaking about the Jews. In the NT scriptures that mention the elect, which ones of these are specifically speaking of the nation of Israel or the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and not the saints of God?

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect‘s sake those days shall be shortened.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect‘s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2Jo 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

With limited atonement why would Christ die for those He hates. 4 times it says God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Will Christ loose any that the Father gave to Him? If God chose us before the foundation of the world based on the fact that we would believe then God is a respecter of persons, those that are better than others at making the right choice.

Irresistible grace is probably the only one that is misnamed. I would say it is Invincible grace that really says that God will do everything that He sets out to do in the lives of His sheep.

As to the perseverance of the saints I am counting on Christ to do what He started to do and I am not counting on me. He is able to keep me from falling, He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him.

LT

I just showed in my first post that "T" in t.u.l.i.p. is shown from scriptures not to be true also "I"

is ruled out as scriptures in this one parable. free to do our will, even though that will may go against what God would have us to do. it does not raise us above God as calvinist would love to twist it, But a God given ability of choosing good over evil or to some to choose evil over good. would you say that God would always have His creation to do good? would You say that God would have His works to be evil? then why are the hearts of His creation and the hearts of His works evil?

Luke 14:15-23

15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

KJV

here in this parable of those eating in the Kingdom of God three were bidden and all three refused the calling/invitation of the master of the supper, they resisted they flat out refused and the Master said that evn though they were BIDDEN, they shall not come!

Luke 14:24

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

KJV

as far as Esua, you are not to condemn any man, so could you show me what scripture you are basing your theory that Esau is in Hell. cause God hated him? I can show scriptures where that the Jews/Israelites are the enemy of the cross,( no man cometh unto the Father except by the One that hung on that Cross) but concerning the elect/Jews they are the beloved, all through scriptures God due to the Israelites reactions(free-will to serve or not to serve) to obedience. God withdrew His Mercy from Israel, but yet we find scriptures that say "ALL" Israel shall be saved. Just because God withdrew His mercy from Israel for periods of time does not make a contradiction of "His Mercy endures forever". does not God hate evil and the hearts of men are evil, but yet He commended/gave His love toward us that we might be be saved, and Jesus was sent for the Whole World, not just the sins of the elect/Jews as Paul said for us but for the sind of the Whole Word. 1 john 2, make your doctrine fit that scripture, don't twist that scripture to fit your man made doctrine! please make note here two references to the "ELECT" paul was not talking about the redeemed but the Jews/ thus election is a choosen nation that God has kept and protected over all else, the Israelites His elected/choosen people.

[larryt]

I would like to address this one issue of the FREE WILL OF MAN for the time being as I believe that it is not taught in Scripture and it is linked to the doctrine of total depravity.

I just showed in my first post that "T" in t.u.l.i.p. is shown from scriptures not to be true also "I"

is ruled out as scriptures in this one parable. free to do our will, even though that will may go against what God would have us to do. it does not raise us above God as calvinist would love to twist it, But a God given ability of choosing good over evil or to some to choose evil over good. would you say that God would always have His creation to do good? would You say that God would have His works to be evil? then why are the hearts of His creation and the hearts of His works evil?

By the way I am not a Calvinist as you might label me. Most Calvinists preach a doctrine. I have a problem with that and that is one does not arrive at Christ through doctrine, one arrives at doctrine through Christ. With that said, I see you establish the idea of free will by quoting a parable. Parables are meant to explain doctrine not derive doctrine. There is a very important distinction that needs to be made. Man has the ability to choose, but to choose to do good over evil is not within the realm of man to do when it comes to God-good.

The most important thing that man must choose to do is believe on Jesus Christ. The pharisees could not as Jesus told them because they were not His sheep. His sheep in fact hear Him and follow Him.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

The will is subject to the mind. You do not will something until you think to do it. But:

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

By this the mind cannot even conceive of the idea to believe in Christ. The idea to believe, have faith in, is in itself a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

God created man perfect and good, capable of choosing between Good and Evil. The problem is that man chose Evil in that he disobeyed. Adam lost the spiritual nature to obey God and that was passed on to all men as all are the offspring of Adam. He became a carnal man and all mankind with him. Man needs to have his heart of stone replace with a heart of flesh. Only God can do this.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

[His_disciple3]

I would like to address this one issue of the FREE WILL OF MAN for the time being as I believe that it is not taught in Scripture and it is linked to the doctrine of total depravity.

I just showed in my first post that "T" in t.u.l.i.p. is shown from scriptures not to be true also "I"

is ruled out as scriptures in this one parable. free to do our will, even though that will may go against what God would have us to do. it does not raise us above God as calvinist would love to twist it, But a God given ability of choosing good over evil or to some to choose evil over good. would you say that God would always have His creation to do good? would You say that God would have His works to be evil? then why are the hearts of His creation and the hearts of His works evil?

By the way I am not a Calvinist as you might label me. Most Calvinists preach a doctrine. I have a problem with that and that is one does not arrive at Christ through doctrine, one arrives at doctrine through Christ. With that said, I see you establish the idea of free will by quoting a parable. Parables are meant to explain doctrine not derive doctrine. There is a very important distinction that needs to be made. Man has the ability to choose, but to choose to do good over evil is not within the realm of man to do when it comes to God-good.

The most important thing that man must choose to do is believe on Jesus Christ. The pharisees could not as Jesus told them because they were not His sheep. His sheep in fact hear Him and follow Him.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

The will is subject to the mind. You do not will something until you think to do it. But:

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

By this the mind cannot even conceive of the idea to believe in Christ. The idea to believe, have faith in, is in itself a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

God created man perfect and good, capable of choosing between Good and Evil. The problem is that man chose Evil in that he disobeyed. Adam lost the spiritual nature to obey God and that was passed on to all men as all are the offspring of Adam. He became a carnal man and all mankind with him. Man needs to have his heart of stone replace with a heart of flesh. Only God can do this.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

well Let me give it to you this way then, even though you don't want to be labeled A calvinist, if you preach John calvin's T.u.l.i.p. then a skunk by any other name will smell the same. as you say man can not choose good over evil and that goes along with calvinist doctrine also, then this is what that doctrine does for me; it takes one of the greatest examples of faith given in the Old Testament, the three Hebrew children, and tells me that that didn't choose to worship God over the King's gods. seeing you teach they had no say, then according to you, God made them choose Him over the king's gods. now seeing it your way this has nothing to do with faith( the as same as believing the Gospel)they had no choice God forced them to do what they did, seeing as you say they could not have done the righteous thing, now let's look at both sides of this and see how this doctrine Christ has brought you to, stacks up with scripture. first seeing that scriptures only tells us that three were throwed into the fire, there must have been some that fell down and worshipped the gods of the King, so my friend are you to say that God of scriptures that desires everything that has breathe to praise Him. allowed no wait according to you forced a whole kingdom other than three children to worship a false god? then This God of scriptures will later judge those that worshipped these false gods? and then one of the greatest quotes concerning faith is just spit upon with your doctrine, o king if our God does not deliver us out of your hands, we will still Serve our God, and even though God says in scriptures to serve whom we will, you go against the three children's faith in God and scriptures itself and say they "ALL' men can't choose good, and God goes beyond that and instead of God allowing men to choose to love Him, He fixed it where no one could love Him except those that He forces to. I have a God given ability through The measure of Faith, He dealt to "EVERY" man, now to deny me of this faith, is to say that a sovereign God can't do what He has said that He will do.

Edited July 1, 2012 by His_disciple3

[larryt]

well Let me give it to you this way then, even though you don't want to be labeled A calvinist, if you preach John calvin's T.u.l.i.p. then a skunk by any other name will smell the same.

I don't preach Calvinism, I preach Jesus Christ. I can discuss the 5 points of Calvinism as how they are derived from Knowing my Lord. And by the way Calvin never came up with the 5 points. I believe it was the Council of Dort in response to the spread of the teachings of Arminius.

as you say man can not choose good over evil and that goes along with calvinist doctrine also, then this is what that doctrine does for me; it takes one of the greatest examples of faith given in the Old Testament, the three Hebrew children, and tells me that that didn't choose to worship God over the King's gods.

I did not say they did not choose. In fact they did make a choice. They chose to serve the Living God. And as I pointed out faith is the gift of God which was given to them by the grace of God, giving them that which they did not deserve.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

seeing you teach they had no say, then according to you, God made them choose Him over the king's gods.

Why do you think I teach they had no say in the mater? You certainly do not understand my position and what Calvin truly taught. Why not try to find out what I truly believe before you accuse me of something? God does not make the blind man look at something. The blind man cannot see. When the blind man's sight is restored he will look at things naturally.

now seeing it your way this has nothing to do with faith( the as same as believing the Gospel)they had no choice God forced them to do what they did, seeing as you say they could not have done the righteous thing, now let's look at both sides of this and see how this doctrine Christ has brought you to, stacks up with scripture.

What specific scripture are you referring to?

first seeing that scriptures only tells us that three were throwed into the fire, there must have been some that fell down and worshipped the gods of the King, so my friend are you to say that God of scriptures that desires everything that has breathe to praise Him. allowed no wait according to you forced a whole kingdom other than three children to worship a false god?

Again you cannot see what I believe and what Calvin taught accurately. It appears all you can do is erect straw men and knock them down. Please try to proof read your post so we can try to understand what it is you are trying to say.

The total depravity of man explains this very well if what your are trying to say is what I think you are saying. Unless God stepped in no man would ever seek Him.God does not force men to worship false gods, they can do that all by themselves. God does give sight to the blind, life to the dead, He gives strength to those He chooses to and they are refreshed. If He does not give sight to the blind they won't be able to see.

then This God of scriptures will later judge those that worshipped these false gods? and then one of the greatest quotes concerning faith is just spit upon with your doctrine, o king if our God does not deliver us out of your hands, we will still Serve our God, and even though God says in scriptures to serve whom we will, you go against the three children's faith in God and scriptures itself and say they "ALL' men can't choose good, and God goes beyond that and instead of God allowing men to choose to love Him, He fixed it where no one could love Him except those that He forces to.

Blind men cannot see, dead men cannot live, lame men cannot walk and the carnal man cannot believe in Jesus Christ.

I have a God given ability through The measure of Faith, He dealt to "EVERY" man, now to deny me of this faith, is to say that a sovereign God can't do what He has said that He will do.

If your are talking about Rom. 12:3 you have taken that out of context. Paul is not talking about every man that ever lived. He is talking about and to believers in the body.

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

The main problem with Arminianism is that it does not lift up Jesus Christ and it exalts man. It makes God a respecter of persons which He says He is not.

[His_disciple3]

you know my friend I am not here to say you said, I said, the people here have access to your post as well as mine. this ain't about you or me being right. it is about the Gospel, if any man or angel comes with another gospel let them be accursed, and we can either call upon the name of the Lord and be saved by Grace through faith. and encourage people to seek the Lord, for it clearly says to seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened. The Lord said behold I stand at the door knocking, if any man will open I will come and sup with Them, it didn't say that He would bust the door down, and make you eat with Him. three were bidden and refused, and they didn't get in. the scriptures says that us being evil know how to give good gifts to our chilren ( sorta blows your theory that we being men can't choose good, now don't it?) but it says that our Father even more so knows how to give the gift of the Holy Spirit TO THOSE THAT ASK! this is the gospel That i see from scriptures, so this is the Gospel that I preach, if you want to preach what you preach contrary to to this, then My friend you had better pray that you are right, for this is not about you or me. this is about souls, and doesn't the Bible say that if we see danger and don't warn them then their blood is on our hands.

no. my friend calvinism makes God a respect of persons. all have sinned, but God won't give all the equal chance to be redeemed, from the curse of a sin nature!

Edited July 2, 2012 by His_disciple3

[larryt]

you know my friend I am not here to say you said, I said, the people here have access to your post as well as mine. this ain't about you or me being right. it is about the Gospel, if any man or angel comes with another gospel let them be accursed, and we can either call upon the name of the Lord and be saved by Grace through faith. and encourage people to seek the Lord, for it clearly says to seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened. The Lord said behold I stand at the door knocking, if any man will open I will come and sup with Them, it didn't say that He would bust the door down, and make you eat with Him. three were bidden and refused, and they didn't get in. the scriptures says that us being evil know how to give good gifts to our chilren ( sorta blows your theory that we being men can't choose good, now don't it?) but it says that our Father even more so knows how to give the gift of the Holy Spirit TO THOSE THAT ASK! this is the gospel That i see from scriptures, so this is the Gospel that I preach, if you want to preach what you preach contrary to to this, then My friend you had better pray that you are right, for this is not about you or me. this is about souls, and doesn't the Bible say that if we see danger and don't warn them then their blood is on our hands.

And the evidence that God chose them before the foundation of the world is that they knock, and seek and believe. And you are right about someone preaching another gospel they are accursed. I praise God that He chose me before the foundation of the earth to reveal His Son IN ME.

no. my friend calvinism makes God a respect of persons.

How so?

all have sinned, but God won't give all the equal chance to be redeemed, from the curse of a sin nature!

Why does He have to? He did not give the angels that fell a second chance.