Question regarding 2 Corinthians 12

[GentleGiant]

I completely agree with WhySoBlind on this one:

"Exactly. People make such a big deal about this, when it is really so simple. He said in plain text it was a "messenger of satan". That is, the Lord allowed an evil spirit to torment Paul in order to keep him humble."

It is right there in black-and-white. Here is an article that I pulled from my notes:

--------------- What About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh? ----------------------

Tradition has taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was some type of physical ailment or sickness. If you will take time to study the Word, you will find that this is not true. Paul clearly states in 2 Corinthians 12:7 that because of the abundance of revelations he had received, he was given a thorn in the flesh and the thorn was "a messenger of Satan." The Greek word translated as messenger always refers to someone who is sent and denotes a definite personality.

This same word for messenger is translated in other verses of the New Testament as "angel." Angels, as God's messengers, are created beings with personalites. Satan's messengers would be in the same category. In contrast, sickness is not a personality, nor a messenger.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a wicked spirit or angel sent by Satan to buffet him. Buffet means to strike repeatedly. God does not send wicked spirits against people in the Body of Christ for any reason (James 1:13). He sent the Holy Spirit and has given us His Word, which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness to discipline and guide us (see John 16:13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The phrase "thorn in the flesh" is a figure of speech or illustration. It is similar to calling someone who irritates us "a pain in the neck." Likewise, Paul's thorn was an evil angel who caused him great irritation, but not with sickness or disease. In 2 Corinthians 11:24-26, Paul lists what some of these "irritations" were - being imprisoned, stoned, beaten, shipwrecked and attacked by angry mobs.

Other examples of the persecutions Paul suffered are found in Acts 13:45, 50 and Acts 14:5-7, 19-20. The people in these verses were instruments used by the source of persecution - the messenger of Satan.

This evil angel was assigned to Paul for one reason - to stop the Word from being preached. Wherever Paul went, the messenger of Satan worked to incite the people against him. All the persecutions that Paul suffered were Satan's attempt to steal the Word from him (see Mark 4:14-20).

Satan will see to it that no believer is exalted above the measure of the Word that actually lives in him. The Word that is alive in your heart is the word on which you steadfastly act. You will have to stand in faith for every word of revelation knowledge you receive.

Many have used Galatians 4:13 to support their traditional teaching that Paul's thorn was sickness or disease: "You know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first." The Greek word for infirmities means "want of strength; weakness, indicating inability to produce results." This translation is used in 1 Corinthians 2:3: "And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling." Like many believers, when Paul first started ministering, he never felt he had the natural ability to do the job God called him to do.

But the next verse goes on to tell us he was obedient anyway and the Holy Spirit made up the difference with a demonstration of His power: "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). Paul's infirmity or weakness of the flesh provided an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do a mighty work.

That's why Paul could say, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities [lack of strength], that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities [weakness], in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). Our weakness is no longer a problem once we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit's power.

God had given Paul the revelation of the authority of the believer. Paul had authority over Satan in the Name of Jesus - just as you do. But he had to enforce his authority by directly commanding the evil spirit to desist in his maneuvers against him. However, in this instance, Paul sought deliverance from the Lord instead.

"For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me" (2 Corinthians 12:8). If you want results, do not ask God to deal with the devil for you. Just as God told Moses to drive out the inhabitants of the land (Numbers 33:52), He instructs you to drive out the demons or evil spirits (Mark 16:17). "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

When Paul asked the Lord to make this messenger of Satan depart from him, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9). He did not say that the messenger would not depart. He was saying to Paul, "My favor is enough. For when you do not have the ability to humanly overcome, you have My Name to stop Satan's attack and cast out the devil."

The Greek word dunamis, which is translated strength in this verse, can also be translated as power. We get our English words dynamite and dynamo from it. It is the same word Jesus used in Acts 1:8 when He said, "Ye shall receive power [dunamis], after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you." Weymouth's translation of 2 Corinthians 12:9 reads, "My grace suffices for you, for power is perfected in weakness" (The New Testament in Modern Speech). This is the opposite of the traditional teaching that Paul had no victory over the thorn in the flesh.

Paul lived to be an old man and then said that he could not decide whether to stay here or to go be with the Lord (Philippians 1:22-24). He needed to stay here for the Church's sake, but he yearned to go be with Jesus. He did not leave this world until he and the Lord were ready. This is not the description of a man who lived with sickness and disease.

Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh, could gain no victory over Paul through adverse circumstances because the power of Christ rested on him. "I have learned in any and all circumstances, the secret of facing every situation..." (Philippians 4:12, The Amplified Bible). He revealed this secret in the next verse: "I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me - I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me."

When Paul in himself was weak, Paul in Christ was strong. Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh that we have heard so much about, never did overcome Paul and the power of God. Satan could do no more than irritate or annoy him like a thorn in his flesh - a temporary discomfort which could be removed. Paul was a covenant man; he ran the race and won. He knew his authority as a believer. He knew the shield of faith would quench all the fiery darts of the wicked (Ephesians 6:16). When he began using his faith, the Lord was able to deliver him out of all the afflictions and persecutions (2 Timothy 3:10-11).

Paul's thorn in the flesh is a tradition that Satan has used to deceive and rob many people. Using it as an excuse, tradition says that God gets glory from sickness because the world sees how marvelously the Christian bears pain and agony. Tradition never adds up to the right answer - anyone knows that the world has all the pain and agony it can stand. The world wants a way out of sickness, not another way into it.

If we allow the traditions of men to usurp authority over God's Word, we will be helpless in the face of sickness. God will be able to do nothing for us, because we have made the Word "of none effect" in our lives (Matthew 15:6).

------------------------------------------

[Openly Curious]

I completely agree with WhySoBlind on this one:

"Exactly. People make such a big deal about this, when it is really so simple. He said in plain text it was a "messenger of satan". That is, the Lord allowed an evil spirit to torment Paul in order to keep him humble."

It is right there in black-and-white. Here is an article that I pulled from my notes:

--------------- What About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh? ----------------------

Tradition has taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was some type of physical ailment or sickness. If you will take time to study the Word, you will find that this is not true. Paul clearly states in 2 Corinthians 12:7 that because of the abundance of revelations he had received, he was given a thorn in the flesh and the thorn was "a messenger of Satan." The Greek word translated as messenger always refers to someone who is sent and denotes a definite personality.

This same word for messenger is translated in other verses of the New Testament as "angel." Angels, as God's messengers, are created beings with personalites. Satan's messengers would be in the same category. In contrast, sickness is not a personality, nor a messenger.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a wicked spirit or angel sent by Satan to buffet him. Buffet means to strike repeatedly. God does not send wicked spirits against people in the Body of Christ for any reason (James 1:13). He sent the Holy Spirit and has given us His Word, which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness to discipline and guide us (see John 16:13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The phrase "thorn in the flesh" is a figure of speech or illustration. It is similar to calling someone who irritates us "a pain in the neck." Likewise, Paul's thorn was an evil angel who caused him great irritation, but not with sickness or disease. In 2 Corinthians 11:24-26, Paul lists what some of these "irritations" were - being imprisoned, stoned, beaten, shipwrecked and attacked by angry mobs.

Other examples of the persecutions Paul suffered are found in Acts 13:45, 50 and Acts 14:5-7, 19-20. The people in these verses were instruments used by the source of persecution - the messenger of Satan.

This evil angel was assigned to Paul for one reason - to stop the Word from being preached. Wherever Paul went, the messenger of Satan worked to incite the people against him. All the persecutions that Paul suffered were Satan's attempt to steal the Word from him (see Mark 4:14-20).

Satan will see to it that no believer is exalted above the measure of the Word that actually lives in him. The Word that is alive in your heart is the word on which you steadfastly act. You will have to stand in faith for every word of revelation knowledge you receive.

Many have used Galatians 4:13 to support their traditional teaching that Paul's thorn was sickness or disease: "You know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first." The Greek word for infirmities means "want of strength; weakness, indicating inability to produce results." This translation is used in 1 Corinthians 2:3: "And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling." Like many believers, when Paul first started ministering, he never felt he had the natural ability to do the job God called him to do.

But the next verse goes on to tell us he was obedient anyway and the Holy Spirit made up the difference with a demonstration of His power: "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). Paul's infirmity or weakness of the flesh provided an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do a mighty work.

That's why Paul could say, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities [lack of strength], that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities [weakness], in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). Our weakness is no longer a problem once we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit's power.

God had given Paul the revelation of the authority of the believer. Paul had authority over Satan in the Name of Jesus - just as you do. But he had to enforce his authority by directly commanding the evil spirit to desist in his maneuvers against him. However, in this instance, Paul sought deliverance from the Lord instead.

"For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me" (2 Corinthians 12:8). If you want results, do not ask God to deal with the devil for you. Just as God told Moses to drive out the inhabitants of the land (Numbers 33:52), He instructs you to drive out the demons or evil spirits (Mark 16:17). "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

When Paul asked the Lord to make this messenger of Satan depart from him, the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9). He did not say that the messenger would not depart. He was saying to Paul, "My favor is enough. For when you do not have the ability to humanly overcome, you have My Name to stop Satan's attack and cast out the devil."

The Greek word dunamis, which is translated strength in this verse, can also be translated as power. We get our English words dynamite and dynamo from it. It is the same word Jesus used in Acts 1:8 when He said, "Ye shall receive power [dunamis], after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you." Weymouth's translation of 2 Corinthians 12:9 reads, "My grace suffices for you, for power is perfected in weakness" (The New Testament in Modern Speech). This is the opposite of the traditional teaching that Paul had no victory over the thorn in the flesh.

Paul lived to be an old man and then said that he could not decide whether to stay here or to go be with the Lord (Philippians 1:22-24). He needed to stay here for the Church's sake, but he yearned to go be with Jesus. He did not leave this world until he and the Lord were ready. This is not the description of a man who lived with sickness and disease.

Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh, could gain no victory over Paul through adverse circumstances because the power of Christ rested on him. "I have learned in any and all circumstances, the secret of facing every situation..." (Philippians 4:12, The Amplified Bible). He revealed this secret in the next verse: "I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me - I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me."

When Paul in himself was weak, Paul in Christ was strong. Satan's angel, the thorn in the flesh that we have heard so much about, never did overcome Paul and the power of God. Satan could do no more than irritate or annoy him like a thorn in his flesh - a temporary discomfort which could be removed. Paul was a covenant man; he ran the race and won. He knew his authority as a believer. He knew the shield of faith would quench all the fiery darts of the wicked (Ephesians 6:16). When he began using his faith, the Lord was able to deliver him out of all the afflictions and persecutions (2 Timothy 3:10-11).

Paul's thorn in the flesh is a tradition that Satan has used to deceive and rob many people. Using it as an excuse, tradition says that God gets glory from sickness because the world sees how marvelously the Christian bears pain and agony. Tradition never adds up to the right answer - anyone knows that the world has all the pain and agony it can stand. The world wants a way out of sickness, not another way into it.

If we allow the traditions of men to usurp authority over God's Word, we will be helpless in the face of sickness. God will be able to do nothing for us, because we have made the Word "of none effect" in our lives (Matthew 15:6).

------------------------------------------

Right on GentleGiant,

Good Preaching Amen and Amen

This is the good stuff that makes me want to shout Hallelujah Glory to God for we are overcomers through Christ Jesus and more that a conqueror as nothing can seperate us from the love of God as he will work all things for the good to those that love him.

God Bless

Openly Curious

Edited March 16, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Christ's Free Servant]

My personal take is that it isn't important what the thorn is, else Paul would have said what it was.

The reason it isn't important, IMO, is that if it were written what it was, we would think that only that kind of suffering would be covered by God's grace (I've had enough experience with how people apply Scripture ).

So, I think it best we don't worry about it. That makes it more applicable to us, that we can find grace in our pain, no matter what the cause of it is - whether physical, mental, emotional or spiritual.

VERY WELL PUT!!! I agree!

[ayin jade]

[quote name='WhySoBlind' date='Mar 16 2006, 07:10 AM'

Paul could not have lost his eyesight, as some claim, because he WROTE the epistle. If he was blind, he could not have written this epistle and others. Further, in the book of Acts, he was clearly HEALED of his temporary blindness that he had from the road to Damascus.

[Triple Crown]

GentleGiant ,

Thank you so very much for posting the article

--------------- What About Paul's Thorn in the Flesh? ----------------------

Very thorough, concise, and well presented material.

God's Blessing to you my brother

in His service,

TC

[Christ's Free Servant]

My personal take is that it isn't important what the thorn is, else Paul would have said what it was.

The reason it isn't important, IMO, is that if it were written what it was, we would think that only that kind of suffering would be covered by God's grace (I've had enough experience with how people apply Scripture ).

So, I think it best we don't worry about it. That makes it more applicable to us, that we can find grace in our pain, no matter what the cause of it is - whether physical, mental, emotional or spiritual.

VERY WELL PUT!!! I agree!

I also agree, the whole point is that God's grace is sufficient.

It is not only that his grace is sufficient, but it is that his strength is made perfect IN our weakness. I can remember when I was in churches who judged people falsely based upon personality, emotions, etc. and would give that person the impression that only those who are really strong are somehow spiritually mature. I was going through an emotional healing process where God was surfacing some past painful memories, and the process of brining them to the surface and me crying them out to God is what brought about my healing. In the process, though, the church leaders and members criticized me and judged me falsely and would not even let me serve in any way in the church (other than the choir and nursery) because they said I was "spiritually immature." But, that was not true. I had a very close walk with the Lord. And, it was because of that closeness that he was able to reveal hidden memories and teach me what to do to receive his healing of those damaged emotions. The weird part of that is that the city where we lived before and the church where we lived before did the same, only they judged me because they thought I "had it all together." They said that "people identify with you in your weaknesses, not your strengths," and they thought I came across too strong. The Lord used that experience as a catalyst to show me an emotional wall of fear I had up that kept me from connecting with people, the Lord broke down that wall, and the floods came. But, the next place could not handle my "floods."

The point is that we don't have to be strong physically, emotionally, etc. in order for God to use us or as proof that we are "Spiritually mature." God allowed Paul to be afflicted in his flesh to prove that it was God working in him and through him and it was not Paul himself. God uses the weak things of this world to confound the wise and the despised things, etc. So, the point is that our weaknesses are God's opportunity to show himself to be God in our lives!

[apothanein kerdos]

...edothe moi skolops te sarki aggelos satan ina me kolaphize ina...

kolaphizo was a Greek boxing term, meaning to strike someone in the face, specifically the eye.

So, let's read this in actual context:

"I recieved a sharp pain (thorn) in my body (flesh) from a messenger of Satan...to strike me in the face..."

That's the literal translation.

[Triple Crown]

...edothe moi skolops te sarki aggelos satan ina me kolaphize ina...

kolaphizo was a Greek boxing term, meaning to strike someone in the face, specifically the eye.

So, let's read this in actual context:

"I recieved a sharp pain (thorn) in my body (flesh) from a messenger of Satan...to strike me in the face..."

That's the literal translation.

Hello AK,

Thank you so much for your post, it was very helpful.

Would you mind also doing the Greek translation (literal) of verses 9 & 10 here for me please?

( 2 Corinthians 12: 9,10)

I would truly appreciate it!

in His service

TC

[DInsights]

Grace and peace from God and from our Lord Jesus Christ to all!

Let's be careful applying literal meanings of some Greek words, knowing that the Greek language, like most languages, is dynamic and such words may have various other contextual and/or metaphorical meanings.

I don't see a messenger of Satan following Paul around to hit him in the face repeatedly, such that he'd plead with our Lord that the messenger might depart.

First, we must understand what Paul means by "flesh" and then "thorns" that are in the flesh.

The "flesh" in this context could be a defiled spirit "weighted" by sin. In the "flesh" are "motions of sin" (Rom. 7:5) that are thorns capable of pricking, buffeting or choking the word of God in the heart of a saint. "Motions of sin" are urges, suggestions or propositions of sin and in the case of Paul may have repeatedly buffeted (battered, pounded, pummeled) his heart to prevent him from being exalted beyond a measure of revelation he then had.

Let's remember that Paul was a minister of faith and, specifically, of the grace of God; he could have "fought" the messenger of Satan to submission and retain his measure (albeit much but not in full measure) of revelation, but he did not and with wisdom sought to gain from the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ a full measure of revelation that the messenger of Satan sought to prevent him (Paul) from getting.

To that end, Paul made THREE PLEAS (every word, phrase or number is not without importance or significance in scripture, why 3 pleas and not any other number?) to our Lord Jesus Christ and was exalted when our Lord gave him sufficient (enough, ample or adequate) grace, forcing the messenger to loose in bid against Paul's exaltation and depart.

Lesson for us: Rather than focus on the devil in a spiritual battle, it is best to strive for and obtain from God that thing which the adversary is fighting desparately and so hard to stop us from getting in order to win the battle against the adversary.

Therefore, Paul said he'd rather boast in his weakness (not physical but in context of a lesser measure of revelations he had) so that the complete/perfect (sufficient) grace (all that God is and has - including His power or strength) can be bestowed on him. Thenafter, scripture gives that Paul was able to supply what is lacking in the faith of saints in Thessalonica (1Thes 3:10).

Edited March 17, 2006 by DInsights

[apothanein kerdos]

...edothe moi skolops te sarki aggelos satan ina me kolaphize ina...

kolaphizo was a Greek boxing term, meaning to strike someone in the face, specifically the eye.

So, let's read this in actual context:

"I recieved a sharp pain (thorn) in my body (flesh) from a messenger of Satan...to strike me in the face..."

That's the literal translation.

Hello AK,

Thank you so much for your post, it was very helpful.

Would you mind also doing the Greek translation (literal) of verses 9 & 10 here for me please?

( 2 Corinthians 12: 9,10)

I would truly appreciate it!

in His service

TC

Not a problem. Do you want the entire verses translated, or just portions? I won't type out the Greek (unless you want me to), but I will type out how I would translate the verse and provide justification for changes.

Verse 9:

My favorable love is strong enough for you; for My power is is made perfect in physical weakness. Most gladly, therefore, will I boast in my physical weakness, that the power of CHrist will rest on me.

Bolded letters:

The reason I choose to interpet these words in the way I do is because:

1) From the previous verse we see Paul speaking about a physical affliction.

2) The Greek word used for both "weakness" and "infirmity" is almost always translated into a physical weakness. Excluding this passage, I count 19 times it is translated to be absolutely physical. The other 4 in question are up for debate, but could go either way and most likely refer to physical. In other words, it would be odd to refer to a spiritual sickness considering no other translation of the word does.

3) To add to this, if it is a spiritual problem, this means that God is refusing to remove a spiritual problem from Paul. The implications in this are very, very, very drastic.

4) In verse 10 when we read "when I am weak" we see a form of this Greek word, astheneo. What is interesting is that this refers solely to a physical weakness. In the 38 times it is translated, it always refers to physical weakness.

The context simply does not allow for this to be a spiritual problem.