Yes, Jesus meant TODAY in his message to the thief on the cross

[AdHoc]

Here are some facts to help get to the bottom of this.

The context of the discussion was the sign nailed to the cross that Pilate ordered. It declared Jesus "KING of the Jews". The Kingdom the thief spoke of must therefore be Israel

The result of the FAITH of the malefactor would entitle him to rebirth and so make him fit for the Kingdom of heaven on earth (Jn.3:3). But he had no Baptism so he could not ENTER the Kingdom of God (Jn.3:5)

Paradise is NOT the Kingdom of God. Paradise is in Hades under the earth. Matthew 12:40 has Jesus spending 3 days "in the heart of the earth" and Ephesians 4:9-10 has Him "descending FIRST". John 20:17 has Him NOT ascended YET when He met Mary. Acts 2 has Jesus released from HADES after three days. Paradise is under the earth. God's Kingdom is heavenly and COMES to earth).

Except for John 3:3-5, every mention of ENTERING the Kingdom of God (heaven) is attached to WORKS. E.g Matthew 7:21-23, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc. The malefactor admitted that his works required his DEATH - not the Kingdom.

There is no record of Jesus preaching to anybody after death. The grammar of of 1st Peter 3:18-19 concerns what the Spirit did. It means; "Jesus, raised by the Spirit BY which (Spirit) Noah THEN was inspired to preach to the spirits who are NOW in prison". Haded might be a prison but it is a prison of the SOULS of men - not spirits. Tartarus is a prison for ANGELS which are spirits. That is, Noah preached to the angels who mixed with women, but who kept not their estate and are NOW in prison.

In death there is NO WORK (Heb.4:10)

Hope this helps.

[kwikphilly]

On 3/9/2025 at 10:43 PM, Marston said:

Most people argue about where that comma in the verse is supposed to be. Let's forget about the comma. 

If it was Jesus's intention to communicate that the thief would be in his kingdom eventually in the future, he likely would have said "You will be with me in paradise", which of course, doesn't designate when.

However, Jesus used "TODAY" because that is exactly what he meant. Jesus told him "You'll be with me in paradise TODAY"!

I guess everyone is just going to have to wait and see what happens after the physical body dies and when we Rise up in spirit......will we even notice or remember those things,I doubt it coming from the confines of space and time and on to Eternity

I don't think there's much importance in where commas are though it's the simplest way to explain without getting into the complexities in translating the Ancient languages grammar with,for example,the different declensions( or absence of)- which of course affect the I,me & mine and conjugation which would indicate tense and what that " tense" relates to......it's what Jesus Spoke at that very moment ,it could've been translated as " I'm telling you right now" but that was not Written that way in Koine Greek.

What is most important about that Ancient Greek phrase " Truly ,I tell you today" is the affirmation,the promise that there is a Place with Jesus,Life after death is sure for the Forgiven

 

 

 

[Daniel whalen]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Here are some facts to help get to the bottom of this.

The context of the discussion was the sign nailed to the cross that Pilate ordered. It declared Jesus "KING of the Jews". The Kingdom the thief spoke of must therefore be Israel

The result of the FAITH of the malefactor would entitle him to rebirth and so make him fit for the Kingdom of heaven on earth (Jn.3:3). But he had no Baptism so he could not ENTER the Kingdom of God (Jn.3:5)

Paradise is NOT the Kingdom of God. Paradise is in Hades under the earth. Matthew 12:40 has Jesus spending 3 days "in the heart of the earth" and Ephesians 4:9-10 has Him "descending FIRST". John 20:17 has Him NOT ascended YET when He met Mary. Acts 2 has Jesus released from HADES after three days. Paradise is under the earth. God's Kingdom is heavenly and COMES to earth).

Except for John 3:3-5, every mention of ENTERING the Kingdom of God (heaven) is attached to WORKS. E.g Matthew 7:21-23, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc. The malefactor admitted that his works required his DEATH - not the Kingdom.

There is no record of Jesus preaching to anybody after death. The grammar of of 1st Peter 3:18-19 concerns what the Spirit did. It means; "Jesus, raised by the Spirit BY which (Spirit) Noah THEN was inspired to preach to the spirits who are NOW in prison". Haded might be a prison but it is a prison of the SOULS of men - not spirits. Tartarus is a prison for ANGELS which are spirits. That is, Noah preached to the angels who mixed with women, but who kept not their estate and are NOW in prison.

In death there is NO WORK (Heb.4:10)

Hope this helps.

OH yes

It explains a lot of my questions I had

Thank you so much!

[Frits]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Those verses don't comport to the context and tense of  "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,"

My comments are about the first sentence of your notes @Michael37, not about 1Pe 3:18-20.

The Lord Jesus Christ always preached to people who were in death because of their sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1), for repentance and faith in Him, that they might live through Him. (John 6:47, 11:25) Even when these people had not yet died, they were already miserable, just like the rich man in Luke 16, but they only found out about that after they died!

And also to all the spirits of people in Hades, who died in their sins before the birth of the Lord Jesus, and also to those from the time of Noah, to all of them the Lord Jesus preached His everlasting Gospel according to 1Peter 3:18. Even in Hades Christ preached what He has always preached:

'Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' (Matt 11:28 KJV)

Those people who then heard and accepted Him as the Holy God, were freed by the Lord Jesus Christ as "captives of war" from the realm of the dead, and carried along on high. (Eph. 4:8)

[Frits]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

That is, Noah preached to the angels who mixed with women, but who kept not their estate and are NOW in prison.

That Noah or the Lord Jesus Christ would have preached to the fallen evil angels is absolutely absurd and incorrect!

Because angels who have become disobedient and hostile to the true Holy God, will never receive or experience restoration! They cannot convert to the Lord Jesus Christ, simply because He does not invite them to do so! (Heb.2:16)

The Holy God does not accept evil angels but He accepts the seed of Abraham, who are people who love Him and believe in Him; therefore people who are of Christ. (Gal.3:29)

Edited Friday at 04:52 PM by Frits

[Locust]

26 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The moment Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise" both him and the "thief were on their Cros on the hill of Golgotha. In a little while Jesus will die and he died before the thief.

Jesus with the words "today you will be with me to the same place as I". And Jesus identified that place as Paradise  

In other words Jesus said, this is  not the last time we will be together.

Jesus foretold that He will be the first one to die and the thief will die later afrer him, as it happened.

But they will not be seperated for too long because in the same day as today the thief will die also. 

As it happened. 

Jesus said that the thief will follow him after his death and be in the same place where Jesus went after his death. "Today" as it happened that both of them died the same day. Jesus first and the thief after. 

If someone understands the inheritance of the righteous children of Abraham after their death then it can be understood that the thief at his death, forgiven by Jesus who had said that he came for the lost sheep of Israel and God had given him authority to forgive the sins of the lost sheep of Israel as he was often doing. 

And Jesus said that to the thief "that dodgy you will be with me in paradise because he had forgiven the thief sins and the thief stand righteous and at his death was gathered to his father Abraham.  

Jesus said that to the thief who believed that Jesus was a righteous person to tell him that he has forgiven his sins and he will be gathered to their Father Abraham and that he will find him "will find Jesus in that place with Abraham when he will go there at the time of his death. 

Because Jesus knew that will die  first before him and the thief after him and this is why Jesus said that "you will ve with me in Paradise, the Paradise of Abraham in the place God gave to Abraham for his Inheritance after death and for his children. 

Jesus did not say that I will come to where you will be. 

But you will meet me to where you are going in the Place where Abraham gathers his children after their death. Another name is "to the Bossom of Abraham" 

Jesus Christ raised from the dead in three days. The today found him in the place of the dead. Abraham knew that day and he rejoiced waiting for him.

Jesus was telling the people that he will die as a righteous man. Punishment was not waiting for him after death. AMEN 

and yet the thief is still dead, and will be for a bit more time. scripture does not say exactly  when the resurrection of the dead begins after the kingdom is fully established here on earth . there should be order to it.  the last to die to be the first resurrected . we also don't know how many to expect at any resurrection event.  U's should expect to be teachers/informers as to the many ,many things that happened since their death, and what will be expected of them hence forth.  

after all that are resurrected ,that are going to be resurrected , and the 1000 years are fulfilled satan is let loose for a time .he apparently will be able to cause some damage as many will ignore what the kingdom has done for mankind only to be destroyed . gone and forgotten.

those that are not destroyed receive  some thing similar to what the 144000 received 1000 years previous. forever life

 

[kwikphilly]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Here are some facts to help get to the bottom of this.

The context of the discussion was the sign nailed to the cross that Pilate ordered. It declared Jesus "KING of the Jews". The Kingdom the thief spoke of must therefore be Israel

The result of the FAITH of the malefactor would entitle him to rebirth and so make him fit for the Kingdom of heaven on earth (Jn.3:3). But he had no Baptism so he could not ENTER the Kingdom of God (Jn.3:5)

Paradise is NOT the Kingdom of God. Paradise is in Hades under the earth. Matthew 12:40 has Jesus spending 3 days "in the heart of the earth" and Ephesians 4:9-10 has Him "descending FIRST". John 20:17 has Him NOT ascended YET when He met Mary. Acts 2 has Jesus released from HADES after three days. Paradise is under the earth. God's Kingdom is heavenly and COMES to earth).

Except for John 3:3-5, every mention of ENTERING the Kingdom of God (heaven) is attached to WORKS. E.g Matthew 7:21-23, Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 etc. The malefactor admitted that his works required his DEATH - not the Kingdom.

There is no record of Jesus preaching to anybody after death. The grammar of of 1st Peter 3:18-19 concerns what the Spirit did. It means; "Jesus, raised by the Spirit BY which (Spirit) Noah THEN was inspired to preach to the spirits who are NOW in prison". Haded might be a prison but it is a prison of the SOULS of men - not spirits. Tartarus is a prison for ANGELS which are spirits. That is, Noah preached to the angels who mixed with women, but who kept not their estate and are NOW in prison.

In death there is NO WORK (Heb.4:10)

Hope this helps.

Blessings Adhoc

Nice to see you,been quite awhile..greetings!

Not so sure these are ' facts' but many would agree on your interpretation,it's likely more a probability than a possibility that Jesus Preached to the Old Testament Believers who were disobedient & held captive somewhere' below"since He Descended but I'm not sure what or where that would be and that it be called  ' Paradise',I'd have to lean more towards NOT..... In any interpretation there leaves many questions as there is nothing very clear about this place or realm

There just seems a lot of speculation despite the Story of ' Lazarus " depicting a great chasm dividing two regions in Hades- one side torment and the other side at Abraham's Bosom ..... Interesting,but Paradise? And no ,Paradise is not " Heaven" but I Believe Paradise in whatever realm it has been sealed off in will be on earth with the Tree of Life available when God's Heavenly Kingdom Comes to earth.... I've always Believed the Garden of Eden is a literal place & still exactly where it was created to be,it's just in an unseen realm with those angels still guarding the entrance- it was Paradise.Some Interpret it symbolically,the state of perfection & bliss of the beautiful and pure Relationship with God  prior to the fall..... It's probably all of that and more than we can imagine

Interesting though,with every interpretation there seems speculation( mine as well,lol)

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Frits said:

That Noah or the Lord Jesus Christ would have preached to the fallen evil angels is absolutely absurd and incorrect!

Because angels who have become disobedient and hostile to the true Holy God, will never receive or experience restoration! They cannot convert to the Lord Jesus Christ, simply because He does not invite them to do so! (Heb.2:16)

The Holy God does not accept evil angels but He accepts the seed of Abraham, who are people who love Him and believe in Him; therefore people who are of Christ. (Gal.3:29)

Hi Frits and welcome to the Forum. My best answer is to ask you to read my posting again. I specially tried to make it clear that the preaching was before the crime. "The Holy Spirit inspired Noah to preach "righteousness" (2nd Pet.2:5)  The grammar says; "By which (Spirit) - that it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching by inspiring Noah. Noah did not preach to angels in prison. He was a preacher of "righteousness"-  What one should do and not why these spirits landed in prison. You probably missed Luke 20:35-36 which says that angels can't die. They could not be touched by the water. They are in prison because somebody more powerful put them there. The preaching would have taken place BEFORE they mixed with women. "Righteousness" is not "judgment".

Once you see my point you'll agree that the rest of your answer is based on a wrong reading/understanding of what I said. I don't blame you though because some of the cleverest men in renown Houses of Learning make this mistake. Tartaroo is probably adjacent to Hades as both the Beast (a man) and the supernatural creatures of Revelation 9 use the same "Abyss" The grammar reads "THE bottomless pit"

[Marilyn C]

.

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Adhoc

Nice to see you,been quite awhile..greetings!

Not so sure these are ' facts' but many would agree on your interpretation,it's likely more a probability than a possibility that Jesus Preached to the Old Testament Believers who were disobedient & held captive somewhere' below"since He Descended but I'm not sure what or where that would be and that it be called  ' Paradise',I'd have to lean more towards NOT..... In any interpretation there leaves many questions as there is nothing very clear about this place or realm

There just seems a lot of speculation despite the Story of ' Lazarus " depicting a great chasm dividing two regions in Hades- one side torment and the other side at Abraham's Bosom ..... Interesting,but Paradise? And no ,Paradise is not " Heaven" but I Believe Paradise in whatever realm it has been sealed off in will be on earth with the Tree of Life available when God's Heavenly Kingdom Comes to earth.... I've always Believed the Garden of Eden is a literal place & still exactly where it was created to be,it's just in an unseen realm with those angels still guarding the entrance- it was Paradise.Some Interpret it symbolically,the state of perfection & bliss of the beautiful and pure Relationship with God  prior to the fall..... It's probably all of that and more than we can imagine

Interesting though,with every interpretation there seems speculation( mine as well,lol)

You're always so courteous. Thanks for your answer.

My first answer is to ask you to read each point slowly again and then point out where I missed to the point. If each statement can be backed by scripture. If they are all correct, then I have a good argument. What often happens is that when one hears something for the first time and it is in conflict with what you have held for decades, you tend to fit it against what you believe and nt wat the scripture says.

But let me ask you three questons which you don't have to answer to me, but which will give you something to think about.
1. In your knowledge of grammar, is the Lord Jesus the subject or the Spirit that raised Him? Here it is in context;

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which (SPIRIT) also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1st Pet.3:18–20). ...

... 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to TARTAROO, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2nd Pet.2:4–5)

Does not the grammar of the end of verse 18 and the beginning of 19 make the Holy Spirit the subject and only explain that it is the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Rom.8)? Does not John 16:8 give this as the Holy Spirit's duty on the earth?

2. In the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man, would it not be a lie if our Lord Jesus said that Abraham did something that he actually did not do? Using proper names makes the narrative true. Our Lord is TRUTH. He would never misrepresent a situation. Now consider this. At death Lazarus would have put off his body. Gone would be his hunger and his pain. Why then did he need to be comforted in Abraham's bosom?

3. Would you agree with the following: If you read John 3:5 accurately, is ENTRY into the Kingdom based on faith or is it based on what you DO? I'll give you a hint. Read Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 and tell me if ENTRY is based on what you DO or what you believe. If you are not sure after these two witnesses, I recommend reading Mathew 19 and deciding if the rich young man could ENTER the Kingdom by faith or by selling all and giving it away? Note that Jesus uses "life" and the Kingdom interchangeably  and then his disciples used it to mean "be saved". Now consider ... honestly ... if the Thief next to Jesus could ENTER the Kingdom when he admits that he has only done evil?

If you are brutally honest you will come to the conclusion that there was not a chance for the thief to be found righteous IN HIS WORKS. Add the fact that he did not have time to be Baptized. And you will then notice that Jesus DID NOT PROMISE HIM ENTRY into the KINGDOM. Paradise has nothing to do with the Kingdom! Paradise is for "comforting" the dead in Christ.

There is more, but I'll have my brethren, who are not as gentle as you, on my neck. Think about it! Don't forget to read my posting again - critically.