Was Queen Vashti Honorable or Dishonorable when she rejected her husband's command to bring her in front of others who attended his celebration?

[bartmac123]

I've searched the internet for commentaries, and I've heard both sides of the argument.

The narrative is difficult to evaluate. ( Please continue to read my freewriting after the bible passage excerpt below )

Esther 1

New American Standard Bible 1995

The Banquets of the King

1 Now it took place in the days of Ahasuerus, the Ahasuerus who reigned from India to [a]Ethiopia over 127 provinces, 2 in those days as King Ahasuerus sat on his royal throne which was at the citadel in Susa, 3 in the third year of his reign he gave a banquet for all his princes and attendants, the army officers of Persia and Media, the nobles and the princes of his provinces being in his presence. 4 And he displayed the riches of his royal glory and the splendor of his great majesty for many days, 180 days.

5 When these days were completed, the king gave a banquet lasting seven days for all the people who were present at the citadel in Susa, from the greatest to the least, in the court of the garden of the king’s palace. 6 There were hangings of fine white and violet linen held by cords of fine purple linen on silver rings and marble columns, and couches of gold and silver on a mosaic pavement of porphyry, marble, mother-of-pearl and precious stones. 7 Drinks were served in golden vessels of various kinds, and the royal wine was plentiful according to the king’s [c]bounty. 8 The drinking was done according to the law, there was no compulsion, for so the king had given orders to each official of his household that he should do according to the desires of each person. 9 Queen Vashti also gave a banquet for the women in the [d]palace which belonged to King Ahasuerus.

Queen Vashti’s Refusal

10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king with her royal crown in order to display her beauty to the people and the princes, for she was beautiful. 12 But Queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command delivered by the eunuchs. Then the king became very angry and his wrath burned within him.

13 Then the king said to the wise men who understood the times—for it was the custom of the king so to speak before all who knew law and justice 14 and were close to him: Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media who [e]had access to the king’s presence and sat in the first place in the kingdom— 15 “According to law, what is to be done with Queen Vashti, because she did not [f]obey the command of King Ahasuerus delivered by the eunuchs?” 16 In the presence of the king and the princes, Memucan said, “Queen Vashti has wronged not only the king but also all the princes and all the peoples who are in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus. 17 For the queen’s conduct will [g]become known to all the women causing them [h]to look with contempt on their husbands by saying, ‘King Ahasuerus commanded Queen Vashti to be brought in to his presence, but she did not come.’ 18 This day the ladies of Persia and Media who have heard of the queen’s conduct will speak in the same way to all the king’s princes, and there will be plenty of contempt and anger. 19 If it pleases the king, let a royal edict be issued by him and let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media so that it cannot [j]be repealed, that Vashti may no longer come into the presence of King Ahasuerus, and let the king give her royal position to [k]another who is more worthy than she. 20 When the king’s edict which he will make is heard throughout all his kingdom, [l]great as it is, then all women will give honor to their husbands, great and small.”

21 This word pleased the king and the princes, and the king did [m]as Memucan proposed. 22 So he sent letters to all the king’s provinces, to each province according to its script and to every people according to their language, that every man should be the master in his own house and the one who speaks in the language of his own people.

Esther 1:7 does mention that there was royal wine present during the celebration. Esther 1:8 seems to suggest that the celebration was Not an out-of-control party of drunks because it states that:

8 The drinking was done according to the law, there was no compulsion, for so the king had given orders to each official of his household that he should do according to the desires of each person.

However, It's a bit difficult to conduct the exegesis of the verses, Esther 1:10-11:

10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king with her royal crown in order to display her beauty to the people and the princes, for she was beautiful.

Esther 1:10 mentions that "the heart of the king was merry with wine" when he commanded his eunuchs to bring Queen Vashti out.

However, how drunk was King Ahasuerus when he uttered his command? Was he out-of-control drunk Or just a little tipsy?

Exegesis of Esther 1:11 is where the real controversy comes about.

Was King Ahasuerus just commanding Queen Vashti to come before his party's attendees merely so that they can appreciate her beauty in positive light?

Or

Was King Ahasuerus trying to objectify his Queen like some kind of trophy wife in front of others in order to behave like an ostentatious showboat who played excessively to the gallery which is bad?

To add to the controversy of behind Esther 1:11, some commentators suggested that the King may have wanted her to come out naked because his command mentions Queen Vashti to come to his party with the royal crown, but does Not mention anything about her wearing clothes. However, just because said verse does Not mention clothes does Not mean he wanted her to come naked but it could be-- we just do Not know.

In Esther 1:12, it does Not say that Queen Vashti the reasons behind her refusal, therefore, it's difficult to say if she based her decision on honor or dishonor.

However, to side with King Ahasuerus, Esther 1:13 does say that he did seek the counsel with "the wise men who understood the times" regarding how he should respond to his wife's refusal.

Esther 1:13 would suggest that King Ahasuerus was Not so foolishly drunk because he at the very least sought advice from wise men who understood the times.

Could someone please provide their interpretation/exegesis of this episode of dispute between the King and his Queen?

[FriendofJonathan]

14 minutes ago, bartmac123 said:

I've searched the internet for commentaries, and I've heard both sides of the argument.

The narrative is difficult to evaluate. ( Please continue to read my freewriting after the bible passage excerpt below )

Esther 1

New American Standard Bible 1995

The Banquets of the King

1 Now it took place in the days of Ahasuerus, the Ahasuerus who reigned from India to [a]Ethiopia over 127 provinces, 2 in those days as King Ahasuerus sat on his royal throne which was at the citadel in Susa, 3 in the third year of his reign he gave a banquet for all his princes and attendants, the army officers of Persia and Media, the nobles and the princes of his provinces being in his presence. 4 And he displayed the riches of his royal glory and the splendor of his great majesty for many days, 180 days.

5 When these days were completed, the king gave a banquet lasting seven days for all the people who were present at the citadel in Susa, from the greatest to the least, in the court of the garden of the king’s palace. 6 There were hangings of fine white and violet linen held by cords of fine purple linen on silver rings and marble columns, and couches of gold and silver on a mosaic pavement of porphyry, marble, mother-of-pearl and precious stones. 7 Drinks were served in golden vessels of various kinds, and the royal wine was plentiful according to the king’s [c]bounty. 8 The drinking was done according to the law, there was no compulsion, for so the king had given orders to each official of his household that he should do according to the desires of each person. 9 Queen Vashti also gave a banquet for the women in the [d]palace which belonged to King Ahasuerus.

Queen Vashti’s Refusal

10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king with her royal crown in order to display her beauty to the people and the princes, for she was beautiful. 12 But Queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command delivered by the eunuchs. Then the king became very angry and his wrath burned within him.

13 Then the king said to the wise men who understood the times—for it was the custom of the king so to speak before all who knew law and justice 14 and were close to him: Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media who [e]had access to the king’s presence and sat in the first place in the kingdom— 15 “According to law, what is to be done with Queen Vashti, because she did not [f]obey the command of King Ahasuerus delivered by the eunuchs?” 16 In the presence of the king and the princes, Memucan said, “Queen Vashti has wronged not only the king but also all the princes and all the peoples who are in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus. 17 For the queen’s conduct will [g]become known to all the women causing them [h]to look with contempt on their husbands by saying, ‘King Ahasuerus commanded Queen Vashti to be brought in to his presence, but she did not come.’ 18 This day the ladies of Persia and Media who have heard of the queen’s conduct will speak in the same way to all the king’s princes, and there will be plenty of contempt and anger. 19 If it pleases the king, let a royal edict be issued by him and let it be written in the laws of Persia and Media so that it cannot [j]be repealed, that Vashti may no longer come into the presence of King Ahasuerus, and let the king give her royal position to [k]another who is more worthy than she. 20 When the king’s edict which he will make is heard throughout all his kingdom, [l]great as it is, then all women will give honor to their husbands, great and small.”

21 This word pleased the king and the princes, and the king did [m]as Memucan proposed. 22 So he sent letters to all the king’s provinces, to each province according to its script and to every people according to their language, that every man should be the master in his own house and the one who speaks in the language of his own people.

Esther 1:7 does mention that there was royal wine present during the celebration. Esther 1:8 seems to suggest that the celebration was Not an out-of-control party of drunks because it states that:

8 The drinking was done according to the law, there was no compulsion, for so the king had given orders to each official of his household that he should do according to the desires of each person.

However, It's a bit difficult to conduct the exegesis of the verses, Esther 1:10-11:

10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king with her royal crown in order to display her beauty to the people and the princes, for she was beautiful.

Esther 1:10 mentions that "the heart of the king was merry with wine" when he commanded his eunuchs to bring Queen Vashti out.

However, how drunk was King Ahasuerus when he uttered his command? Was he out-of-control drunk Or just a little tipsy?

Exegesis of Esther 1:11 is where the real controversy comes about.

Was King Ahasuerus just commanding Queen Vashti to come before his party's attendees merely so that they can appreciate her beauty in positive light?

Or

Was King Ahasuerus trying to objectify his Queen like some kind of trophy wife in front of others in order to behave like an ostentatious showboat who played excessively to the gallery which is bad?

To add to the controversy of behind Esther 1:11, some commentators suggested that the King may have wanted her to come out naked because his command mentions Queen Vashti to come to his party with the royal crown, but does Not mention anything about her wearing clothes. However, just because said verse does Not mention clothes does Not mean he wanted her to come naked but it could be-- we just do Not know.

In Esther 1:12, it does Not say that Queen Vashti the reasons behind her refusal, therefore, it's difficult to say if she based her decision on honor or dishonor.

However, to side with King Ahasuerus, Esther 1:13 does say that he did seek the counsel with "the wise men who understood the times" regarding how he should respond to his wife's refusal.

Esther 1:13 would suggest that King Ahasuerus was Not so foolishly drunk because he at the very least sought advice from wise men who understood the times.

Could someone please provide their interpretation/exegesis of this episode of dispute between the King and his Queen?

Perhaps wine was freely flowing in Vasthi's party as well, and she was bloated and feeling hungover.  Or maybe she was in the custom of women, as it were. 

Putting aside the above, God, knowing all things, knew Haman would would plot to have the king sign a decree that all Jews should be killed. Therefore, God intervened,  employing His divine persuasion over Vashti, the king, Mordecai and Esther to save His people. 

In any event, we aren't told.  So, all of this is speculative. 

[other one]

I have looked into this a long time ago and decided I would have to have a lot more information before deciding.

[bartmac123]

48 minutes ago, other one said:

I have looked into this a long time ago and decided I would have to have a lot more information before deciding.

@other one

Quote

Excerpt from the following website:  https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/102062/15888

Since the text does not say, we are free to speculate. However it is important to note that this story( i.e., sub-narrative involving the Queen Vashti rejecting her husband, King Ahasuerus's command. ) is Not the central point of the book. It serves mainly to denigrate the pagan royal culture, which is the main story's backdrop. Vashti, whether victim or villain, is basically a placeholder for to Esther, who is a paragon of nobility.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:25 PM by bartmac123

[Deborah_]

8 hours ago, bartmac123 said:

I've searched the internet for commentaries, and I've heard both sides of the argument.

That's because there are two sides to the argument. As in many life situations, there are conflicting principles in operation and no straightforward answer as to what 'should' be done.

On the one hand, Vashti is supposed to obey her husband (who is, after all, the emperor) in all matters. Her disobedience made the most powerful man on earth look weak.

On the other hand, women and men were strictly segregated in ancient Persian culture. For Vashti to be paraded in all-male company (as if she was just one more item in the emperor's treasury) would have violated a deep-seated taboo and shamed her for the rest of her life.

If there's a moral lesson to be learned here, it's this: DON'T ever put your partner in such a difficult and embarrassing position by making unreasonable demands of them.

[bartmac123]

4 minutes ago, Deborah_ said:

That's because there are two sides to the argument. As in many life situations, there are conflicting principles in operation and no straightforward answer as to what 'should' be done.

On the one hand, Vashti is supposed to obey her husband (who is, after all, the emperor) in all matters. Her disobedience made the most powerful man on earth look weak.

On the other hand, women and men were strictly segregated in ancient Persian culture. For Vashti to be paraded in all-male company (as if she was just one more item in the emperor's treasury) would have violated a deep-seated taboo and shamed her for the rest of her life.

If there's a moral lesson to be learned here, it's this: DON'T ever put your partner in such a difficult and embarrassing position by making unreasonable demands of them.

But it's Still to Difficult to say because Esther 1 does Not give us enough information.

Esther 1:7 does mention that there was royal wine present during the celebration. Esther 1:8 seems to suggest that the celebration was Not an out-of-control party of drunks because it states that:

Quote

8 The drinking was done according to the law, there was no compulsion, for so the king had given orders to each official of his household that he should do according to the desires of each person.

However, It's a bit difficult to conduct the exegesis of the verses, Esther 1:10-11:

Quote

10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, 11 to bring Queen Vashti before the king with her royal crown in order to display her beauty to the people and the princes, for she was beautiful.

Esther 1:10 mentions that "the heart of the king was merry with wine" when he commanded his eunuchs to bring Queen Vashti out.

However, how drunk was King Ahasuerus when he uttered his command? Was he out-of-control drunk Or just a little tipsy?

Exegesis of Esther 1:11 is where the real controversy comes about.

Was King Ahasuerus just commanding Queen Vashti to come before his party's attendees merely so that they can appreciate her beauty in positive light?

Or

Was King Ahasuerus trying to objectify his Queen like some kind of trophy wife in front of others in order to behave like an ostentatious showboat who played excessively to the gallery which is bad?

 

It's really difficult to say if it were

a wild drunken party

 

or

just a good-natured party where people were drinking and having reasonably respectful jovial fun.

[other one]

1 hour ago, bartmac123 said:

Since the text does not say, we are free to speculate.

No, we are not.    Truth does not come from speculation.   I would need to have more information before speaking against someone.

[bartmac123]

16 minutes ago, other one said:

No, we are not.    Truth does not come from speculation.   I would need to have more information before speaking against someone.

Ok, let's just agree to disagree on whether we are free to speculate.

However, Do you agree with the following point?

Regardless of who was a fault( i.e., Queen Vashti or King Ahasuerus or maybe both ), one point is certain.

Esther 1's sub-narrative does mention the banishment of Queen Vashti forever from the presence of King Ahasuerus allowed for God's providence of Esther becoming the queen, and that is the most important aspect of the aforementioned sub-narrative which matters, and Not the debate about who was a fault.  

Edited Sunday at 12:04 AM by bartmac123

[other one]

1 minute ago, bartmac123 said:

Ok, let's just agree to disagree on whether we are free to speculate.

Do you agree with the following point?

Regardless of who was a fault( i.e., Queen Vashti or King Ahasuerus or maybe both ), one point is certain.

Esther 1's sub-narrative does mention the banishment of Queen Vashti forever from the presence of King Ahasuerus allowed for God's providence of Esther becoming the queen, and that is the most important aspect of the aforementioned sub-narrative which matters, and Not the debate about who was a fault.  

That is what I got from reading the Word.    However, it hasn't been very long since I saw the Sight and Sound production of Queen Esther and a lot of speculation was involved.   The speculation doesn't matter, but as you say, what is important it made an avenue for Ester to become queen.  God has done a lot of things to move history to where he wanted it, and I assume he still does.

As for speculation, I think it leads to 3,000 denominations of the Christian church.   I'm still dealing long term with that.