Worthy Poets Only Thread

[Retrobyter]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:26 AM, Michael37 said:

And also, emphatically, the abode of God.

Revelation 4 for example.

Shalom @Michael37.

The simple answer is "God doesn't HAVE an 'abode.'"

He is said to be "omnipresent," that is, "present everywhere." That means that even in the farthest reaches of space, He is there!

Consider the words we have from three different sources:

David said,

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew: שָׁמַיִם = shaamayim = "[into the] skies," a dual word meaning the "daytime sky" and the "NIGHTTIME SKY," with all that we can now see in telescopes and detect by radio-telescopes), THOU ART THERE: if I make my bed in hell (שְּׁאוֹל = sh'owl = "[in]-asked-about," i.e. the "[in-the]-tomb" or "[in-the]-grave"), behold, THOU ART THERE.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 EVEN THERE SHALL THY HAND LEAD ME, AND THY RIGHT HAND SHALL HOLD ME.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me"; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, THE DARKNESS HIDETH NOT FROM THEE; BUT THE NIGHT SHINETH AS THE DAY: THE DARKNESS AND THE LIGHT ARE BOTH ALIKE TO THEE.

Solomon said,

1 Kings 8:22-30 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD God of Israel, [there is] no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled [it] with thine hand, as [it is] this day. 25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me. 26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, [even] toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive."

(Both David and Solomon were "anointed ones"; therefore, I colored their words in red.)

Note here that "shaamayim" was a NAME that God gave to the "רָקִיעַ" or "raqiya`," meaning an "expanse" as "beaten thin," even as the "thinning of the atmosphere." So, the words "the heavens and the heaven of heavens," which in Hebrew is "#"

Finally, Isaiah said,

Isaiah 45:1-13 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 "I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I [am] the LORD (Hebrew: יְהוָה = "YHWH," in which vowel pointing was added from "'Adonay," to remind readers to say "'Adonay" rather than pronounce the Name), and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. 7 I FORM THE LIGHT, AND CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and create evil (calamities): I the LORD do all these [things]. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, 'What begettest thou?' ('What have you fathered?') or to the woman (the mother), 'What hast thou brought forth?' ('To what have you given birth?')"

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,

"Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [EVEN] MY HANDS, HAVE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, AND ALL THEIR HOST HAVE I COMMANDED. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward," saith the LORD of hosts.

Another psalm says, 

Psalm 147:1-5 (KJV)

1 Praise ye the LORD: for [it is] good to sing praises unto our God; for [it is] pleasant; [and] praise is comely. 2 The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. 3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. 4 HE TELLETH THE NUMBER OF THE STARS; HE CALLETH THEM ALL BY [THEIR] NAMES. 5 GREAT [IS] OUR LORD, AND OF GREAT POWER: HIS UNDERSTANDING [IS] INFINITE (Hebrew: מִסְפָּר = MIÇPAAR = "INNUMERABLE").

Now, all that being said, God DID make a City for us and will land it upon the New Earth, after it has been remade. That City is Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem), which will be set upon its foundation upon the New Earth. If one wants to call that "Heaven," that's okay. It DOES contain its own atmosphere! How else would the species called the "Tree of Life" be able to live there? (See, while still talking about the New Jerusalem, what John said in Revelation 22:1-2.) This city is said to be 12,000 stadia or 1,380 miles high! That's about six times the farthest height of the atmophere the earth is currently said to have! If we divide the height by 12 for each of its twelve foundational levels, that means that each level to the city will have 115 miles (less the thickness of the foundation) of atmosphere! One could EASILY fly a jetplane through that level's atmosphere!

Also, as mentioned in the same passage of Revelation, this City is where the "throne of God and of the Lamb" is found, from which a pure river of water of life flows.

So, was John caught up to a DISTANT throne of God and of the Lamb, or was he snatched away to a FUTURE throne of God and of the Lamb?

I believe it was the latter.

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom @Michael37.

The simple answer is "God doesn't HAVE an 'abode.'"

He is said to be "omnipresent," that is, "present everywhere." That means that even in the farthest reaches of space, He is there!

Consider the words we have from three different sources:

David said,

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven (Hebrew: שָׁמַיִם = shaamayim = "[into the] skies," a dual word meaning the "daytime sky" and the "NIGHTTIME SKY," with all that we can now see in telescopes and detect by radio-telescopes), THOU ART THERE: if I make my bed in hell (שְּׁאוֹל = sh'owl = "[in]-asked-about," i.e. the "[in-the]-tomb" or "[in-the]-grave"), behold, THOU ART THERE.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 EVEN THERE SHALL THY HAND LEAD ME, AND THY RIGHT HAND SHALL HOLD ME.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me"; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, THE DARKNESS HIDETH NOT FROM THEE; BUT THE NIGHT SHINETH AS THE DAY: THE DARKNESS AND THE LIGHT ARE BOTH ALIKE TO THEE.

Solomon said,

1 Kings 8:22-30 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD God of Israel, [there is] no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled [it] with thine hand, as [it is] this day. 25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me. 26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, [even] toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive."

(Both David and Solomon were "anointed ones"; therefore, I colored their words in red.)

Note here that "shaamayim" was a NAME that God gave to the "רָקִיעַ" or "raqiya`," meaning an "expanse" as "beaten thin," even as the "thinning of the atmosphere." So, the words "the heavens and the heaven of heavens," which in Hebrew is "#"

Finally, Isaiah said,

Isaiah 45:1-13 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 "I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I [am] the LORD (Hebrew: יְהוָה = "YHWH," in which vowel pointing was added from "'Adonay," to remind readers to say "'Adonay" rather than pronounce the Name), and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. 7 I FORM THE LIGHT, AND CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and create evil (calamities): I the LORD do all these [things]. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, 'What begettest thou?' ('What have you fathered?') or to the woman (the mother), 'What hast thou brought forth?' ('To what have you given birth?')"

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,

"Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [EVEN] MY HANDS, HAVE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, AND ALL THEIR HOST HAVE I COMMANDED. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward," saith the LORD of hosts.

Another psalm says, 

Psalm 147:1-5 (KJV)

1 Praise ye the LORD: for [it is] good to sing praises unto our God; for [it is] pleasant; [and] praise is comely. 2 The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. 3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. 4 HE TELLETH THE NUMBER OF THE STARS; HE CALLETH THEM ALL BY [THEIR] NAMES. 5 GREAT [IS] OUR LORD, AND OF GREAT POWER: HIS UNDERSTANDING [IS] INFINITE (Hebrew: מִסְפָּר = MIÇPAAR = "INNUMERABLE").

Now, all that being said, God DID make a City for us and will land it upon the New Earth, after it has been remade. That City is Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem), which will be set upon its foundation upon the New Earth. If one wants to call that "Heaven," that's okay. It DOES contain its own atmosphere! How else would the species called the "Tree of Life" be able to live there? (See, while still talking about the New Jerusalem, what John said in Revelation 22:1-2.) This city is said to be 12,000 stadia or 1,380 miles high! That's about six times the farthest height of the atmophere the earth is currently said to have! If we divide the height by 12 for each of its twelve foundational levels, that means that each level to the city will have 115 miles (less the thickness of the foundation) of atmosphere! One could EASILY fly a jetplane through that level's atmosphere!

Also, as mentioned in the same passage of Revelation, this City is where the "throne of God and of the Lamb" is found, from which a pure river of water of life flows.

So, was John caught up to a DISTANT throne of God and of the Lamb, or was he snatched away to a FUTURE throne of God and of the Lamb?

I believe it was the latter.

Semantics aside, God does concentrate His Presence in a location whilst also maintaining His Omnipresence, see Strong's Concordance for heaven in Rev4:1

G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
Total KJV occurrences: 284

[Rich in Good Works]

Here's another poem I wrote recently.

Beloved, Let Us Love One Another 

Human love can come and go with the ever-changing tides,

but God’s love continues to grow on the inside

I have seen many people over the years fall in and out of the fleshly kind of love,

it didn’t last because it wasn’t founded on the love that comes from above

One minute they are madly in love with each other

and the next minute, they can’t stand each other

Sometimes a spirit of lust can cloud your discernment and affect your mind,

but at some point, you will realize that you got yourself into a bind

A godly marriage should have a natural love,

but it also should be intertwined with God’s agape kind of love

You have been commanded to love your neighbor as you love yourself,

but many people have put this commandment upon the proverbial shelf

We are called to love people no matter what they do

and we must forgive them, or our blessings will never come through

We are to love our enemies and pray that God will open their eyes,

so that they can attain the eternal prize

The love of God isn’t conditional or a temporary thing

and it was bought and paid for by our beloved King of Kings

For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son

to attain a victory that we could have never won

Jesus was on this earth for 33 years

and all his exploits and words continue to echo throughout the years

He did many great signs, healings, miracles, and he even raised the dead,

and because of him, we can partake of the Living Bread

God loves us with a kind of love that our minds cannot comprehend

and this love will never grow cold or come to an end

We saw how much God cares for us, because he was willing sacrifice his son

and he did all of it, so that we could be born-again and be as one

Jesus was willing to lay his life on the line,

because that was all a part of God’s grand design

He was beaten, bruised, battered and then nailed to a cross made of wood

and he didn’t deserve any of it, because he was holy, righteous, and good

On the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”,

and this also applies to me and you

He died, but then on the third day he arose again

and he conquered death, the Devil, hell and sin

After his resurrection, he was on the earth for forty days

and over five hundred people saw him during these glorious days

When he was caught up to heaven, then the Holy Spirit took his place

and he leads and guides us into all truth and fills us with God’s grace

When you accept the Lord Jesus into your heart and become born-again,

then the love of God will cover your many sins

You will be washed and cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb

and then welcomed into the kingdom of the Great I AM!

[Rich in Good Works]

Here's another poem I wrote.

Rich in Good Works 

I love to follow the Holy Spirit’s voice and plan

and I try to be as sensitive to him, as I can

When I am preaching, I allow the Holy Spirit to take the helm

and that is when I enter God’s heavenly realm

Many times, I don’t even know what I am going to say,

but then the Holy Spirit takes over and saves the day

The Holy Spirit knows how to tap into the hearts of a woman or a man

and he searches everyone’s heart so that he can develop a plan

You must be willing and obedient to the Lord’s calling

and then rely on the Lord to keep you from stumbling and falling

The Holy Spirit leads and guides me into all truth

and he has been my constant companion since the days of my youth

Jesus has never left me, nor forsaken me

and he is the one that has set me free

If I am depressed and discouragement is all around,

I know where my peace, joy, and love can be found

Doing good and doing right,

fills my heart with great joy and ecstatic delight

It feels like I am fulfilling God’s divine purpose for my life

and it gives me a strength in my spiritual life

In the Bible, there was a woman named “Dorcas” who spread charitable seeds

and she was full of good works in her actions and deeds

One day she died, but that wasn’t the end of her story,

because the Lord was about to fill her with his glory

The Apostle Peter knelt by her side and told her to arise

and then suddenly, she opened her eyes

God brought her back to the land of the living

and I am sure after that happened, she kept on helping people with her charitable giving

Because of this great miracle, many believed on the Lord

and they came together in one accord

Rich in good works, it means to be generous and helpful to others

and to do good deeds for one another

Let me make something very clear and plain,

doing good works should not be for recognition or personal gain

Cornelius, a centurion of what was called “the Italian Regiment”,

was a devout man and who feared God and his charitable giving was quite evident

About the ninth hour of the day,

an angel appeared to him along the way

The angel said to him, “your prayers and giving have come up for a memorial before God,

now send men to Joppa and find Peter, who was with the Son of God”

Peter came to his house and preached the good news

and he finally realized that the gospel was for the gentiles and the Jews

The Holy Spirit fell upon everyone in that place

and God filled them with his love, goodness, mercy, and grace

It’s time for God’s people to be rich in good works and deeds

and to be fearlessly spreading the gospel seeds!

[The Barbarian]

On 3/6/2025 at 12:24 PM, Retrobyter said:

but the chorus is the capstone to every verse! His Sacrifice on the cross is the answer to the problems we face in life, even and especially the deepest and darkest of sins we might commit.

It's the best part.  

 

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Semantics aside, God does concentrate His Presence in a location whilst also maintaining His Omnipresence, see Strong's Concordance for heaven in Rev4:1

G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.
Total KJV occurrences: 284

Shalom, @Michael37.

Of course, I've seen this. However, "by extension" means that it is an ADDITIONAL, IMPLIED meaning based on how it is PERCEIVED its meaning would be in certain contexts. The primary meaning is "the sky." It is the meaning that the GREEKS themselves would understand. Where did the Greeks prior to and while Rome ruled think that the gods lived? They believed that they lived on Mount Olympus,

"... the highest mountain in Greece, residing in a palace within the clouds above the peak; this is where they were believed to be able to observe the lives of humans below them."

And, who ruled over the sky (ho ouranos)? That was the domain of the king of the gods, "Zeus," whom the Romans called "Jupiter."

"In Greek mythology, Zeus ruled the sky, lightning, thunder, and justice. He was the king of the Olympian gods and the supreme god in Greek religion."

So, when the Jewish scribes translated the TANAKH (the O.T.) into the Greek of the Septuagint, and later the New Testament authors and/or scribes translated the texts of Scripture into the Koine Greek, one must understand that THIS, "the sky," is what the Greek-speaking peoples would have understood from the word "ouranos."

Anything more that this would have to be conveyed in CONTEXT! Therefore, one must be careful not to fall into the trap of circular reasoning, using the meaning of the word in context to describe the word in its context! 

This is why Paul (and others) used the composite word "epouranios" to describe things, like the New Jerusalem, that were "above the sky," i.e., in space. Most of the time, when the word "ouranos" is used, it is within the phrase, "ek tou ouranou," meaning "from the sky" or "out of-the sky." And, from our perspective, that typically meant coming THROUGH the sky to humanity upon the ground. And, that is how both the Pharisees and Yeeshuwa` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek:  ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός) is red. 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός) is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the [sur]face of the sky (τὸ μὲν πρόσωπον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Therefore, one must look for occurrences of "God's abode" that do NOT use the word "ouranos" for clues to suggest that God has an "abode" that is being described outside of and beyond the earth's atmosphere, even as being in another dimension of reality.

Yet, it is the PRECISE OPPOSITE that we find in the Scriptures! At best, it is said as an analogy: "The heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool." (הַשָּׁמַיִם or "hashaamayim" in Isaiah 66:1;   Ὁ οὐρανός or "Ho ouranos" in Acts 7:49).

Now, let's look at the Greek of Revelation 4:1.

Ἀποκάλυψις 4:1 (Scrivener's TR 1894)

1 Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ, θύρα ἠνεῳγμένη ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἡ φωνὴ ἡ πρώτη ἣν ἤκουσα ὡς σάλπιγγος λαλούσης μετ’ ἐμοῦ, λέγουσα, Ἀνάβα ὧδε, καὶ δείξω σοι ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.

1 Meta tauta eidon, kai idou, thura eeneoogmenee en too ouranoo, kai hee foonee hee prootee heen eekousa hoos salpiggos lalousees met' emou, legousa, Anaba hoode, kai deixoo soi ha dei genesthai meta tauta.

1 After this I-saw, and look, a-door was-opened in the sky, and the voice the first one which I-heard like a-trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come-up here, and I-will-show you the things that-shall-happen after this."

Read on ...

2 καὶ εὐθέως ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι· καὶ ἰδοὺ, θρόνος ἔκειτο ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καθήμενος·

2 Kai heutheoos egenomeen en pneumati; kai idou, thronos ekeito en too ouranoo, kai epi tou thronou katheemenos;

2 And I-was-found immediately in/on a-wind/spirit; and look, a throne was-set in the sky, and upon the throne [one]-sat;

Now, consider contextual clues: How is a door usually "opened in the sky" or a throne usually "set in the sky?" Wouldn't they be set up upon a mountain? What? Has gravity taken a vacation? And, how was John to come up on his own power, for the command form was given for him to "come up here!"

There's a simple test: Look up all the occurrences of "door" ("θύρα") in the New Testament and see how it is used in all the other places in Scripture:

Here's the New Testament verses. There are 39 occurrences in 37 verses:

Matthew 6:6 KJV - 6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door,[G2374] pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Matthew 24:33 KJV - 33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.[G2374]"
Matthew 25:10 KJV - 10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door[G2374] was shut."
Matthew 27:60 KJV - 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door[G2374] of the sepulchre, and departed.
Matthew 28:2 KJV - 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[G2374] and sat upon it.
Mark 1:33 KJV - 33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.[G2374]
Mark 2:2 KJV - 2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive [them], no, not so much as about the door:[G2374] and he preached the word unto them.
Mark 11:4 KJV - 4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door[G2374] without (outside) in a place where two ways met; and they loose him.
Mark 13:29 KJV - 29 "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.[G2374]"
Mark 15:46 KJV - 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door[G2374] of the sepulchre.
Mark 16:3 KJV - 3 And they said among themselves, "Who shall roll us away the stone from the door[G2374] of the sepulchre?"
Luke 11:7 KJV - 7 "And he from within shall answer and say, 'Trouble me not: the door[G2374] is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.'"
Luke 13:25 KJV - 25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door,[G2374] and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door,[G2374] saying, 'Lord, Lord, open unto us'; and he shall answer and say unto you, 'I know you not whence ye are' :"
John 10:1-2, 7, 9 KJV - 1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door[G2374] into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door[G2374] is the shepherd of the sheep." ... 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door[G2374] of the sheep. ... 9 "I am the door:[G2374] by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
John 18:16 KJV - 16 But Peter stood at the door[G2374] without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
John 20:19, 26 KJV - 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors[G2374] were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, "Peace [be] unto you." ... 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors[G2374] being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace [be] unto you."
Acts 3:2 KJV - 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate[G2374] of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Acts 5:9, 19, 23 KJV - 9 Then Peter said unto her, "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door,[G2374] and shall carry thee out." ... 19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors,[G2374] and brought them forth, and said, ... 23 Saying, "The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors:[G2374] but when we had opened, we found no man within."
Acts 12:6, 13 KJV - 6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door[G2374] kept the prison. ... 13 And as Peter knocked at the door[G2374] of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
Acts 14:27 KJV - 27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door[G2374] of faith unto the Gentiles.
Acts 16:26-27 KJV - 26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors[G2374] were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors[G2374] open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Acts 21:30 KJV - 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors[G2374] were shut.
1 Corinthians 16:9 KJV - 9 For a great door[G2374] and effectual is opened unto me, and [there are] many adversaries.
2 Corinthians 2:12 KJV - 12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to [preach] Christ's gospel, and a door[G2374] was opened unto me of the Lord,
Colossians 4:3 KJV - 3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door[G2374] of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
James 5:9 KJV - 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.[G2374]
Revelation 3:8, 20 KJV - 8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door,[G2374] and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ... 20 Behold, I stand at the door,[G2374] and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,[G2374] I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
Revelation 4:1 KJV - 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door[G2374] [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

With the exceptions of the analogy that the Messiah makes with him being the door to the sheepfold, the word is always a literal, phyiscal door or doorway. Why should it be different in Revelation 4:1?

[Indentured Servant]

On 3/3/2025 at 11:53 PM, Michael37 said:

                                     LOL

A humorous thought crossed my mind, it happens now and then.

I will laugh out loud sometimes, when no-one is around.

I'll change the tense of things, in order to expound,

Not staying in the past, with words that do not last, 

Rather being in the present, with phrases that are pleasant,

Or going further to the future, to search for fancy furniture.

I'll LOL aha, if another humorous thought should cross my mind again.

I enjoyed your poem. I've been writing poetry since the late 1970's and it's rare for me to write something that reads in such a relaxed tone. 

...I've nearly confined myself to a metaphorical expression of thoughts and feelings.

[Michael37]

3 minutes ago, Indentured Servant said:

..I've nearly confined myself to a metaphorical expression of thoughts and feelings

Can we see an example? 

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Michael37.

Of course, I've seen this. However, "by extension" means that it is an ADDITIONAL, IMPLIED meaning based on how it is PERCEIVED its meaning would be in certain contexts. The primary meaning is "the sky." It is the meaning that the GREEKS themselves would understand. Where did the Greeks prior to and while Rome ruled think that the gods lived? They believed that they lived on Mount Olympus,

"... the highest mountain in Greece, residing in a palace within the clouds above the peak; this is where they were believed to be able to observe the lives of humans below them."

And, who ruled over the sky (ho ouranos)? That was the domain of the king of the gods, "Zeus," whom the Romans called "Jupiter."

"In Greek mythology, Zeus ruled the sky, lightning, thunder, and justice. He was the king of the Olympian gods and the supreme god in Greek religion."

So, when the Jewish scribes translated the TANAKH (the O.T.) into the Greek of the Septuagint, and later the New Testament authors and/or scribes translated the texts of Scripture into the Koine Greek, one must understand that THIS, "the sky," is what the Greek-speaking peoples would have understood from the word "ouranos."

Anything more that this would have to be conveyed in CONTEXT! Therefore, one must be careful not to fall into the trap of circular reasoning, using the meaning of the word in context to describe the word in its context! 

This is why Paul (and others) used the composite word "epouranios" to describe things, like the New Jerusalem, that were "above the sky," i.e., in space. Most of the time, when the word "ouranos" is used, it is within the phrase, "ek tou ouranou," meaning "from the sky" or "out of-the sky." And, from our perspective, that typically meant coming THROUGH the sky to humanity upon the ground. And, that is how both the Pharisees and Yeeshuwa` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek:  ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός) is red. 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός) is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the [sur]face of the sky (τὸ μὲν πρόσωπον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Therefore, one must look for occurrences of "God's abode" that do NOT use the word "ouranos" for clues to suggest that God has an "abode" that is being described outside of and beyond the earth's atmosphere, even as being in another dimension of reality.

Yet, it is the PRECISE OPPOSITE that we find in the Scriptures! At best, it is said as an analogy: "The heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool." (הַשָּׁמַיִם or "hashaamayim" in Isaiah 66:1;   Ὁ οὐρανός or "Ho ouranos" in Acts 7:49).

Now, let's look at the Greek of Revelation 4:1.

Ἀποκάλυψις 4:1 (Scrivener's TR 1894)

1 Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ, θύρα ἠνεῳγμένη ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἡ φωνὴ ἡ πρώτη ἣν ἤκουσα ὡς σάλπιγγος λαλούσης μετ’ ἐμοῦ, λέγουσα, Ἀνάβα ὧδε, καὶ δείξω σοι ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.

1 Meta tauta eidon, kai idou, thura eeneoogmenee en too ouranoo, kai hee foonee hee prootee heen eekousa hoos salpiggos lalousees met' emou, legousa, Anaba hoode, kai deixoo soi ha dei genesthai meta tauta.

1 After this I-saw, and look, a-door was-opened in the sky, and the voice the first one which I-heard like a-trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come-up here, and I-will-show you the things that-shall-happen after this."

Read on ...

2 καὶ εὐθέως ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι· καὶ ἰδοὺ, θρόνος ἔκειτο ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καθήμενος·

2 Kai heutheoos egenomeen en pneumati; kai idou, thronos ekeito en too ouranoo, kai epi tou thronou katheemenos;

2 And I-was-found immediately in/on a-wind/spirit; and look, a throne was-set in the sky, and upon the throne [one]-sat;

Now, consider contextual clues: How is a door usually "opened in the sky" or a throne usually "set in the sky?" Wouldn't they be set up upon a mountain? What? Has gravity taken a vacation? And, how was John to come up on his own power, for the command form was given for him to "come up here!"

There's a simple test: Look up all the occurrences of "door" ("θύρα") in the New Testament and see how it is used in all the other places in Scripture:

Here's the New Testament verses. There are 39 occurrences in 37 verses:

Matthew 6:6 KJV - 6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door,[G2374] pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Matthew 24:33 KJV - 33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.[G2374]"
Matthew 25:10 KJV - 10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door[G2374] was shut."
Matthew 27:60 KJV - 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door[G2374] of the sepulchre, and departed.
Matthew 28:2 KJV - 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[G2374] and sat upon it.
Mark 1:33 KJV - 33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.[G2374]
Mark 2:2 KJV - 2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive [them], no, not so much as about the door:[G2374] and he preached the word unto them.
Mark 11:4 KJV - 4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door[G2374] without (outside) in a place where two ways met; and they loose him.
Mark 13:29 KJV - 29 "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.[G2374]"
Mark 15:46 KJV - 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door[G2374] of the sepulchre.
Mark 16:3 KJV - 3 And they said among themselves, "Who shall roll us away the stone from the door[G2374] of the sepulchre?"
Luke 11:7 KJV - 7 "And he from within shall answer and say, 'Trouble me not: the door[G2374] is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.'"
Luke 13:25 KJV - 25 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door,[G2374] and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door,[G2374] saying, 'Lord, Lord, open unto us'; and he shall answer and say unto you, 'I know you not whence ye are' :"
John 10:1-2, 7, 9 KJV - 1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door[G2374] into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door[G2374] is the shepherd of the sheep." ... 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door[G2374] of the sheep. ... 9 "I am the door:[G2374] by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
John 18:16 KJV - 16 But Peter stood at the door[G2374] without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
John 20:19, 26 KJV - 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors[G2374] were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, "Peace [be] unto you." ... 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors[G2374] being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace [be] unto you."
Acts 3:2 KJV - 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate[G2374] of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Acts 5:9, 19, 23 KJV - 9 Then Peter said unto her, "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door,[G2374] and shall carry thee out." ... 19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors,[G2374] and brought them forth, and said, ... 23 Saying, "The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors:[G2374] but when we had opened, we found no man within."
Acts 12:6, 13 KJV - 6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door[G2374] kept the prison. ... 13 And as Peter knocked at the door[G2374] of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
Acts 14:27 KJV - 27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door[G2374] of faith unto the Gentiles.
Acts 16:26-27 KJV - 26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors[G2374] were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors[G2374] open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Acts 21:30 KJV - 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors[G2374] were shut.
1 Corinthians 16:9 KJV - 9 For a great door[G2374] and effectual is opened unto me, and [there are] many adversaries.
2 Corinthians 2:12 KJV - 12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to [preach] Christ's gospel, and a door[G2374] was opened unto me of the Lord,
Colossians 4:3 KJV - 3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door[G2374] of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
James 5:9 KJV - 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.[G2374]
Revelation 3:8, 20 KJV - 8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door,[G2374] and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ... 20 Behold, I stand at the door,[G2374] and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,[G2374] I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
Revelation 4:1 KJV - 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door[G2374] [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

With the exceptions of the analogy that the Messiah makes with him being the door to the sheepfold, the word is always a literal, phyiscal door or doorway. Why should it be different in Revelation 4:1?

At least you are convinced you are right.

God manifests in finite locations, and we are given descriptions of this. The context makes it obvious to me that more than just sky is meant by the word heaven throughout the Bible on occasions.

 2Ki 2:11  And it happened as they went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire came, and they separated between them both. And Elijah went up in a tempest into Heaven.

 

[The Barbarian]

Landscape of Years presents uneven ground;

among the pits and crags bright treasure lies.

But it is rare and and far more rarely found.

And found not long before the brightness dies.

 

Alone without a guide we mostly go.

Distractions come with every darkened bend

Betraying plans we make before we know

where any such digressions come to end.

 

I knew so little when my walk was new

I learned so slowly as I went along.

So willful and undisciplined, it's true.

So many times my choices turned out wrong.

 

The means by which at last I came this far,

I kept my eye upon Your constant star.