Unravelling Revelation

[Deborah_]

5 minutes ago, Locust said:

do any of you claim to of the 144,000?  priest's in the kingdom

According to my interpretation, the 144,000 are all Christians. So I am one of them - and so are you. And according to I Peter 2:9, we are God's kingdom of priests.

[Locust]

35 minutes ago, Deborah_ said:

According to my interpretation, the 144,000 are all Christians. So I am one of them - and so are you. And according to I Peter 2:9, we are God's kingdom of priests.

according to REV.14:3 you know the words to the song 

.3 ''And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

the test is, do you know the words  ?

[abcdef]

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I respectfully place history before us.

History shows that Rev 12 is completely fulfilled and ended in 1967.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When was Israel in heaven?

Rev 12 is a vision with symbols. John literally saw the vision in heaven, but it was a vision of symbols that represented real material entities and events.

Israel is often symbolized as a woman Rev 19:7-8 and has been in the scriptures. 

The woman of Rev 17, represents a people on earth. 

The dragon represents people on earth. The wilderness represents gentile nations on the planet. The waters are people, Rev 17.

The vision of the Rev 12 woman is a people, Israel.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When was Israel pregnant in heaven?

In the Rev 12 vision the woman is waiting to be delivered.

What is she waiting to be delivered from? Sin?

Doesn't that fit the situation in the beginning of the 1st century?

Israel is waiting for Jesus to deliver us from sin?

Didn't Jesus do that?

The vision takes place in 96 AD, so if you want, yes, the woman Israel was "pregnant" in heaven, in the vision, in 96 AD ish.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When did Israel face the Dragon while pregnant?

Israel did face the dragon nation Rome while "pregnant", waiting for the deliverer Jesus.

Herod the Roman dragon tried to kill Jesus. 

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Who is the "Remnant of her Seed"?

The remnant of her seed is gentile Christians who remained in the power of Rome after the Jews were chased into the gentile nations.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When dd Israel flee to a wilderness for 1260 days?

Israel fled into the gentile nations from 70 AD ish to 1967 when Jerusalem was restored and the times of the gentiles ended, 1900 years in the time of men. 

The 3 1/2 times and 1260 days are symbolic and are over.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When was Israel crowned?

The crown is stars. The stars represent the 12 tribes or all of Israel. 

It is a vision in heaven that reflects real entities and events.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When was Israel clothed with Christ - "the sun of righteousness"?

The sun represents the Law of Moses.

The moon represents the Prophets.

They are the lights of the world that are channeled through the scriptures that Israel maintains.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When did Israel make the "lessor light" her footstool?

The moon is the Prophets.

Israel's light is from the Law, the sun.

The Prophets are not the Law of Moses, but are a reflection of the Law, that is, the Prophets are receiving their guiding light from the Law of Moses, the sun.

 

22 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think that these few make a clear case that the woman is not Israel.

The timeline anchor of Rev 12 is the birth of Jesus in 1 AD ish.

All the other events can be dated by this anchor.

Another is the fleeing into the wilderness, that was 70 AD ish.

The time in the wilderness ended in 1967. The times of the gentiles is over.

 

[Dennis1209]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 is the remnant promised in Romans 9 and 11. Notice the facts of this company. 144,000 is a number derived from New Jerusalem - God's final consummated administration on earth. 12 is the number of God's people. So as not to die from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation they are "sealed" (Rev.9:4).

Greetings AdHoc,

These 144,000 are sealed, meaning they are protected from God's judgments and the Antichrist. Would you agree? As we all know, there are so many interpretations. I have always associated these with the Two Witnesses, except these are global. As the Two Witnesses in Israel, I associate these 144,000 with having a mission in conjunction with the flying angel preaching the Gospel globally. I see the remnant of Israel in Zech. 13:8-9, one-third is not killed off by Judgment and A/C. Where is it said or implied they serve as a remnant?

[Locust]

17 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Two Witnesses,

and what would that be ?

[Deborah_]

3 hours ago, Locust said:

according to REV.14:3 you know the words to the song 

.3 ''And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

the test is, do you know the words  ?

That song is being sung "before the throne", i.e. in heaven. So I doubt that anyone will know the words before getting there - it will be a new song, after all!

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

According to my interpretation, the 144,000 are all Christians. So I am one of them - and so are you. And according to I Peter 2:9, we are God's kingdom of priests.

Interesting. According to Gods Word the 144,000 are male virgins and the first fruits of a coming harvest. They will be sealed so they will be believers.

Since you are not a male you are obviously not one of them as you claim.

[DeighAnn]

On 2/20/2025 at 7:24 PM, abcdef said:

Those 144,000 are OT saints who were resurrected with Jesus in 33 AD. They did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as from 33 AD forward.

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.


Isa 63:11 Hebrew word order
And he remembered the days of old Moses [and] his people [saying] where [is] He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock where [is] He who put within them Spirit His Holy

one of the translations reads 63
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

 

On 2/20/2025 at 7:24 PM, abcdef said:

Please see that Ezek 5:15-17, parallels the Rev 6, four horsemen of the seals.

The Ezek verses were a warning to the people of Jerusalem. The warning was a declaration of what would happen when Jerusalem turned away from God.

The events described in Ezek also happened to the 1st century city when the majority of Israel rejected the new covenant gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost in 33 AD.

The 6th seal is the desolation of the 70 AD city. The day of the Lord against Jerusalem.

The 7th seal opens the scroll sealed in Dan 12. It is the story of Israel after 70 AD.

The trumpets are unbelieving Israel after 70 AD until the 7th trumpet.

So you write/say.  All I need is for you to show where GOD WRITES those things. 

The Book of Revelation isn't given to those under the law, so THEY aren't HIS SERVANTS as they have been blinded... so NONE of the 'seals' apply to them, only to Christians, who read the New Test.    

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto HIS SERVANTS things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Do you believe GOD blinds a people and then causes HIS WRATH to fall upon them for being blind?  




  

 What remains SEALED from us might help to understand  how we are sealed with what is 'loosed' 

The Angel and the Small Scroll

1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. 

You said "The events described in Ezek also happened to the 1st century city when the majority of Israel rejected the new covenant gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost in 33 AD."

When the 10 Northern tribes came out of the Assyrian Captivity, they were sifted and scattered amongst the gentiles throughout the whole world BY GOD, they didn't go back to their lands.  So, the MAJORITY of 'Israel' never even KNEW Jesus had been born let alone crucified so there was no 'rejection' possible at that time.
 

Another problem you face is the 'those who called themselves Jews' were of the synagogue of Satan 'VIPERS' and hypocrites and weren't of the tribe of Judah at all. 

Remember the very first prophecy? 

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Edited 1 hour ago by DeighAnn

[Locust]

1 hour ago, Deborah_ said:

That song is being sung "before the throne", i.e. in heaven. So I doubt that anyone will know the words before getting there - it will be a new song, after all!

before the  throne would be on earth .around the  throne would be in heaven . again i ask what are the words to the song ? 

[DeighAnn]

What happens when a belief is based upon a doctrine and not what is written?  

 

 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Does the great trib... 'was not since the beginning...'  PRECLUDE  all other times of 'great' tribulation?  

No, it does not.  I suggest that 'walking through the valley of the shadow of death' has been 'great' tribulation for MANY...or being eaten by a lion while others watch because of your belief in Christ is great tribulation...or being crucified because you are a  Christian is great tribulation...  It may not be THE GREAT TRIB not since....but it is great none the less.  


What do we know?


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.


How does one reconcile that with

Rev 7 and

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

144,000 Sealed

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Praise from the Great Multitude

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.