Unravelling Revelation

[Deborah_]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

There is no wrath in the 6th seal. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the harvest prior to wrath.

Except that it actually says that the sixth seal is "the great day of their [God's and the Lamb's] wrath." (Revelation 6:17)

[Deborah_]

7 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

Even symbolic numbers have literal application.

12= 

...sons of Israel 

...disciples of Jesus

7=

...Spirits of God

...Messenger to 7 churches 

40=

...years in wilderness (Israel)

...days in wilderness (Jesus)

 

Do we question the literal reference to the symbolic numbers here?

Of course not, and we should not question any part of scripture that uses symbolic numbers or language.

That is true for much of Scripture (although don't press it too far, because the "twelve" tribes of Israel were actually thirteen, and Israel actually spent 38 years in the wilderness, not 40...)

But Revelation is a particular type of literature called "apocalyptic writing" - very common in the centuries immediately before and after Christ's birth. And in apocalyptic literature it's almost guaranteed that the numbers will be symbolic. 

If you believe that there will literally be an identifiable group of 144,000 people - mentio9ned nowhere else in Scripture - you then have to invent something to explain them. But if they are representing the whole church, it fits beautifully with what we already know.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

We know what is written because John had a vision of the seals being opened. None of the seals are opened at this time.

That isn't what is written....this is

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.


At THAT time none of the seals had been opened.  But then, when we continue on reading we see...

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

At that time ONE does prevail.  TO OPEN, TO LOOSE the 7 seals.  How you can claim this is not true I don't know especially when we can see with our own eyes what GOD has written

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, 

The OPPOSITE of that is what you claim with 'none of the seals opened at this time', so I disagree with your statement presented without any scripture to back it up. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The book was not unsealed in 96AD. John had a vision of the unsealing of the book. None of the seals are currently open.

No, it was not, as it was when Christ rose and was handed the book having prevailed to do so.  So I agree, it was not in 96, but at Christs rising.


 

 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

If you are born again, you have been sealed.

The 144,000 from the 12 tribes are sealed when they are born again.

Good to see you acknowledging ISRAEL/Jacob

[Locust]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

f you are born again, you have been sealed.

The 144,000 from the 12 tribes are sealed when they are born again

born again= starting over . 

 

[The Light]

2 minutes ago, Locust said:

born again= starting over . 

 

Could you expound on your point?

[The Light]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

That isn't what is written....this is

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.


At THAT time none of the seals had been opened.  But then, when we continue on reading we see...

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

At that time ONE does prevail.  TO OPEN, TO LOOSE the 7 seals.  How you can claim this is not true I don't know especially when we can see with our own eyes what GOD has written

1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, 

The OPPOSITE of that is what you claim with 'none of the seals opened at this time', so I disagree with your statement presented without any scripture to back it up. 

No, it was not, as it was when Christ rose and was handed the book having prevailed to do so.  So I agree, it was not in 96, but at Christs rising. 

Revelation 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

This is a vision that has not occurred. Has the 1st seal been opened? Has the rider on the white horse ridden? Has Horus, whose eye is on the back of the dollar bill returned. Has Apollo shown up? The antichrist is Horus, who is Apollo, who carries a bow, who is Tammuz..........the Antichrist. Has he been revealed and ridden forth?

Has the 5th seal been opened? Has the great tribulation occurred?

Has the 6th seal been opened. Has Jesus returned for a harvest? Have all eyes seen the coming of the Lord? Has He sent His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Revelation 8

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Are we in the wrath of God which is the 7th seal? 

Just apply some common sense and look around.

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Good to see you acknowledging ISRAEL/Jacob

Jacob has two brides. 

[Indentured Servant]

8 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

If you believe that there will literally be an identifiable group of 144,000 people - mentio9ned nowhere else in Scripture - you then have to invent something to explain them.

It's not so much that I "believe" it, but I do accept it because the Bible literally says it. I don't explain away scripture that doesn't fit a particular narrative.

Asserting that it means something completely different than what it says is no different than the serpent asking Eve, "did God really say that?"

And no, the number "144,000" is not in the Old testament, but the identity of those 144,000 are mentioned in Isaiah, and in least two or three other Prophets.

Interesting that your response opened with a personal comment about MY belief and not the Scripture. You also inserted a personal jab  that I would have to "invent" something to explain what Scripture plainly states. Quite passive-aggressive, and typically indicates that a person perceives weakness in their own argument and feels a need to immediately discredit the other person first in order to maintain their sense of superiority. 

Let's keep this focused on scripture, not on belittling one another.

Please and thank you.

 

 

 

[Deborah_]

3 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

It's not so much that I "believe" it, but I do accept it because the Bible literally says it. I don't explain away scripture that doesn't fit a particular narrative.

Asserting that it means something completely different than what it says is no different than the serpent asking Eve, "did God really say that?"

And no, the number "144,000" is not in the Old testament, but the identity of those 144,000 are mentioned in Isaiah, and in least two or three other Prophets.

Interesting that your response opened with a personal comment about MY belief and not the Scripture. You also inserted a personal jab  that I would have to "invent" something to explain what Scripture plainly states. Quite passive-aggressive, and typically indicates that a person perceives weakness in their own argument and feels a need to immediately discredit the other person first in order to maintain their sense of superiority. 

Let's keep this focused on scripture, not on belittling one another.

Please and thank you.

 

 

 

My apologies - I wasn't intending to belittle you. I should have made it clear that I was using "you" in an indefinite sense (= anyone).

I'm sure we agree that these 144,000 people exist. It's not an issue of believing or denying what the Bible says, but how we interpret what it says.

[Deborah_]

And so to the trumpets... they don't come after all the seals, but are running concurrently.

Revelation 8:2-9:21

Trumpets signal war and judgement. Those who hear them have the opportunity to decide whether to surrender - or resist. But before judgement is declared, Heaven pauses - in order to hear the prayers of God’s people (Luke 18:7). As we pray regularly, “Your Kingdom come,” our prayers are accumulating on the heavenly altar of incense. When the ‘tipping point’ is reached, God’s judgements will finally be set in motion…

But God won’t come in judgement without giving people the opportunity to repent. And so, throughout the present age, He gives us warnings of what is going to happen. The first four trumpets announce a succession of environmental disasters that lay waste large areas of the world and cause economic damage to human agriculture, fishing and commerce. They resemble the plagues of Egypt, and have a similar function: they demonstrate that God has the power to destroy us completely. But He is merciful - and so He holds back. Dreadful as they are, these are just warnings! On earth, these ‘trumpets’ are manifested as natural or man-made disasters. The first readers of this book would probably have been reminded of the eruption of Vesuvius; our generation has witnessed the radioactive fallout from Chernobyl (which means ‘Wormwood’). Through such events, God is speaking to us - but will we take any notice? If we don’t, worse is to follow!

As with the seals, the fifth and sixth trumpets break the pattern. The ‘fallen star’ is probably Satan (see Luke 10:18), and the fifth trumpet is the plague of demons that he will unleash to terrorise mankind. The most interesting thing about these ‘locusts’ is their appearance: from the front, they appear harmless (they look almost human) and even seductive, but their sting is literally in their tails!

The sixth trumpet announces that Western civilisation’s worst nightmare is about to come true: a barbarian invasion from the east, threatening not only conquest, but also the imposition of an alien culture or ideology. This has been a recurring event all through history (the Goths, the Mongols, the Turks,  cold-war Communism, and most recently militant Islamism).

But, to John’s amazement, all these terrible warnings will be ignored. No matter what havoc and destruction is wrought upon the earth, no matter how many calamities afflict mankind, they refuse to repent! Even when a problem is acknowledged (such as global warming), no-one is prepared to make the necessary changes in lifestyle to counteract it. They may fear God’s power, but they won’t submit to His rule. And so their response to each crisis is not to abandon their idolatry, but to pursue it with even greater intensity!

[Indentured Servant]

1 hour ago, Deborah_ said:

My apologies - I wasn't intending to belittle you. I should have made it clear that I was using "you" in an indefinite sense (= anyone).

I'm sure we agree that these 144,000 people exist. It's not an issue of believing or denying what the Bible says, but how we interpret what it says.

Apology, and explanation, accepted. Thank you 

 

My point really is that, in the instance of the 144,000... Some say it means every Christian, jw's think it means their top members, to some it's a mixture of Jews and Christians...

Why the different interpretations?

The only thing these different views agree on is to ignore who John identified as the 144,00, namely, members of "twelve tribes of Israel". 

If they are not who scripture says they are, how do we arrive at the point where we say, "scripture says specific numbers from the tribes of Israel, but it should be interpreted as meaning innumerable gentile Christians."?