The purpose of the Millennium

[BlindSeeker]

To address the original OP statement or question -

“The purpose of the Millennium.”

It was somewhere around 36-38 years ago, that this very subject was kind of forced upon me through a situation which led me to give some prayerful thought and study into it. Somewhere I had written notes on it, but I am not sure where the draft would be at this point of time. Nowadays I find myself looking for things I misplaced 5 minutes ago…

 So, let me take a little time to arrange my thoughts on this matter, and perhaps add as more comes to mind, or perhaps just reason things further as the discourse requires.

The situation that sort of initiated the increasing line of reasoning started way back then occurred when I was fellowshipping with people working in a pregnancy center. Speaking to some of the counselors, one of them told me how they had to console a girl who had an abortion and sought to comfort her by assuring her that the baby was now in heaven.

That just didn’t settle right with me, and so I began to look for justification of the scriptures for that statement. For how can we preach, or even believe, what isn’t written; or at least hinted at through verbiage and situational similarities? Certainly, we can claim no authority for anything theology not written in Holy Writ or even entertain probability through possible prophetic situations and imagery.

The only text I could find that seemed possible, or that other people have pointed consistently to, is David and Bethsheba’s child that perished because of David’s sin, (2 Sam. 12:18-23). The key verse being verse 23 –

2 Sam 12:23 - But now he [the child] is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Many people holding to view that child went to heaven interpret David’s words as stating, “I shall go to heaven to him, but he will not return here to me.” However, I find that to be a very presumptuous interpretation, and an adding what is not written into the text, at least in a theological sense. I believe that God always gives more than one witness to truth in scripture, and as I stated, I have failed to find any other possible support for this notion of theology. Thus, I find the verse insufficient basis to either preach of believe such a thing.

This of course leads to the endless debate of what does happen to babies or those not yet at the “age of accountability.” Some say that only the children of the righteous are automatically saved, the children of the wicked damned. But that doesn’t set well with God’s word either –

Deut 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezek 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 - The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Rom 2:6 - Who will render to every man according to his deed.

 

What also concerned me was the following three questions concerning the Millennium -

1.      Why a millennium reign, for what purpose if we have eternity with Christ as our final reward?

2.      Why wait for the end thereof for the final destruction of Satan?

3.      Who are we going to be reigning over with Christ so that we need a “rod of iron?’

So, let me begin here, odd maybe I know, but perhaps some may remember Yolanda Yates, a mother who drowned her 5 children in a bathtub back in 2001. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

As you can see from the link, her reasoning, (even though she was suffering from severe postpartum depression and other mental or spiritual disorders), was that she knew she was failing to raise them properly so that they could, or would, make better decisions than she had. Therefore, she was persuaded that if she allowed them to grow up, they too would be doomed to go to hell. Therefore, in love for them, she killed them before they too reached an age of accountability and would be damned.

Now, not to shock or alarm anyone, but I concluded that if what she thought was true, then she was a better mother than most, for it would also be equally true that she then secured a place in the Kingdom of God for her children by her doing so. Do you see the problem? I know you do, or at least hope you do.

That got me thinking further, what if I hadn’t come to the Lord, or, what if what Ezekiel stated meant I could lose my salvation? –

 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression. As for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it in the day he turns from his wickedness. Nor shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sins.”

So, my mind wandered as I pondered, thinking, what if I were in line waiting for my approach to the Great White Throne and in front of me is this young looking individual. The line finally moves up to where he is now at the front of the line; and the Lord inquires ‘Who’s next?”

The Angel answers the Lord with a name, but continues with “However, Lord, this individual was one of those who was aborted before birth” or perhaps “was born with severe autism,” or whatever prevented any accountability for themselves having required extensive care for the basics of life.

The Lord’s response I then imagined was, “Well, since there was no comprehension of My laws, there can be no imputing of sin. Enter into the joy of the Lord My friend.”

But now, there I am next, and my despair and confusion is profoundly increased as I begin to think to myself, “If only my mother had sinned and aborted me, I too could have been saved.” Or, as with Yolanda, who then if what she believed was true and she spared her children hell, “Oh that my mother or father or brother had sinned and killed me.”

Suddenly, the awarding of salvation to an individual becomes affected or tainted with the actions of another sinner. Yet I know that can never be true. Salvation is solely of the Lord, and I am personally persuaded that it requires faith and love to obtain for it to be obtained, regardless by who. For by grace we are saved THROUGH FAITH, which is empowered and works by love.

 So, at one point, my initial conclusion was a resurrection of the unaccountable innocent (aborted babies, children who died before the age of accountability, and the mentally handicapped, and whoever else I might be missing…).

My second consideration included on the earth who had not reached an age of accountability yet, who like that with those who came out of Egypt with the fathers, who had indeed believed the evil report were told that they could not enter in, yet being children, of which their fathers accused God of bringing them out of Egypt only to die in the wilderness, those would not be killed in the slaughtering of the nations, but would be permitted to enter in.

Numbers 14:29 -31; Your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, who have murmured against Me, you shall certainly not come into the land which I swore to make you live in, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which you said should be a prey, I will bring them in and they shall know the land which you have despised.

Add also to that God’s words to Jonah, which gave further justification in my mind to entertain the notion and to conclude that when the Lord return, that He will indeed spare those who “do not know between their right and their left hand,” perhaps once more with a qualification of being under 20 years of age (though certainly those who already had been “given much” and reject the Lord knowingly, they may well perish with the rest who God deems without excuse).

Jonah 4:10 – 11; And the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant, for which you had not labored, nor made it grow, which was a son of a night, and perished the son of a night. And should I not spare Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand men who do not know between their right and their left hand, besides much cattle?”

Why else would there be necessity for “the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations?” Or the exhortation, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” which the admonishment “without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie?”

So, to me the millennium is a time whereby all those in the history of humanity who did not reach either a point or state in their life whereby their obtaining faith and love could bring them to the place of confessing their sin and believing in Jesus Christ and calling upon Him for mercy and forgiveness. This is their opportunity to truly know Him to be the only means of life and salvation, looking to Him and calling out to Him for such, that it is these who are the ones over which the saints who had suffered and were persecuted for righteousness sakes shall reign over.

These people will not be influenced by Satan, at least not until the end thereof. The sinner who is obstinate therein, will indeed find death cuts him off because of his sins, “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” But those who trust and obey and look to the Lord shall have a right to the Tree of Life, whose fruits and leaves thereof will be for their sustaining and healing.”

But at the end of the millennium, those who having lived only with the sin nature of their own flesh, yet being exposed to the Lordship of Christ and governed by His saints, some will rejoicingly confess that “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” These will be those who indeed have come to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, might and entire being; for they have indeed tasted of the Lord that He is good.

The rest of the lot will simply be those who complied out of necessity, going along just to get along. Following the law just to avoid complicating their lives with certain obvious woes if they do not obey. But not loving the Lord or His righteousness, will be easily deceived when at the end of the millennium when the devil is released again into rebelling against the Lord, and such will attempt to fight against Him and His saints exposing their true nature. After which, all the dead shall be raised again and wicked are cast into the lake of fire prepared for Satan and his fallen angel, and the righteous enter into eternity with the Lord wherein only dwelleth righteousness.

Thus, salvation can only be declared to be of the Lord because He is indeed “equal” to all of us in the final reward. For to “them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation, and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God,” not in the first 6 millennial days, or the 7th, nor eternity beyond.

Well, these are my thoughts for now… I guess we’ll all see when get there…

 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The Bible says water was created first.

To say that there needed to be this or that, is limiting the Creator.
Heat is a concept He created, also wetness.
There is no concept that He did not create.

There was no time or temperature until He created such,
the first thing He created was water, there was absolutely nothing else,
Himself, complete nothingness, and water flowing from Him.
Then light, we could say then the light heated the water,
but that would mean some sort of creation existed before even the water,
to have things be "cold", cold is a concept.
 

The full order of creation is gleaned from
Psalms 104, Proverbs 8, Job 38 together with Genesis.

Proverbs 8:24 "depths... fountains abounding with water"

Proverbs 8:27 "the heavens... a compass upon the face of the deep"
 

Psalms 104:2
"Who covers thyself with light as a garment: who stretches out the skies
like a curtain, who lays the beams of His upper chambers (the skies) in the waters"

Psalms 104:4
"Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire."

From that Psalm we can conclude angels were created after the sky
was created. From Proverbs 8 we know water was made before the skies.

And that matches with Job 38:6-7
"Where are the foundations fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone
thereof? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God
shouted for joy"

"who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should
not be moved forever." Psalms 104:5

 

The passages together show the order;
water, light, sky, angels, foundation of the earth.

 

Satan had no hand in the creation at all,
the devil is just one of the angels.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see how you came to your conclusion and for want of careful study I will respect your theory. Is there an important spiritual meaning to make it crucial? Thanks for your reply.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Genesis 2:1 says "the HEAVENS and the earth WERE FINISHED" in six days.

The creation of the heavens are in the beinning part of the six creation days.  There is no gap. 

You ducked my observation. By doing that you pit scripture against scripture. But I will answer yours.

If the lights, the water and the heavens were touched or affected by the cause of the earth becoming a "tohu", then the grammar of 2:1 is perfectly in line with my theory as well. Both needed work done. But the grammar actually favors a gap because 1.1 is a sentence complete in itself with 1:2 explaining why work had to be done on something that God had created in order.

But, hey, brother, it's not a crucial doctrine. Let's let it drop and why not you find something else controversial in my OP to chew on. We've really deviated from the original title.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

To address the original OP statement or question -

“The purpose of the Millennium.”

It was somewhere around 36-38 years ago, that this very subject was kind of forced upon me through a situation which led me to give some prayerful thought and study into it. Somewhere I had written notes on it, but I am not sure where the draft would be at this point of time. Nowadays I find myself looking for things I misplaced 5 minutes ago…

 So, let me take a little time to arrange my thoughts on this matter, and perhaps add as more comes to mind, or perhaps just reason things further as the discourse requires.

The situation that sort of initiated the increasing line of reasoning started way back then occurred when I was fellowshipping with people working in a pregnancy center. Speaking to some of the counselors, one of them told me how they had to console a girl who had an abortion and sought to comfort her by assuring her that the baby was now in heaven.

That just didn’t settle right with me, and so I began to look for justification of the scriptures for that statement. For how can we preach, or even believe, what isn’t written; or at least hinted at through verbiage and situational similarities? Certainly, we can claim no authority for anything theology not written in Holy Writ or even entertain probability through possible prophetic situations and imagery.

The only text I could find that seemed possible, or that other people have pointed consistently to, is David and Bethsheba’s child that perished because of David’s sin, (2 Sam. 12:18-23). The key verse being verse 23 –

2 Sam 12:23 - But now he [the child] is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Many people holding to view that child went to heaven interpret David’s words as stating, “I shall go to heaven to him, but he will not return here to me.” However, I find that to be a very presumptuous interpretation, and an adding what is not written into the text, at least in a theological sense. I believe that God always gives more than one witness to truth in scripture, and as I stated, I have failed to find any other possible support for this notion of theology. Thus, I find the verse insufficient basis to either preach of believe such a thing.

This of course leads to the endless debate of what does happen to babies or those not yet at the “age of accountability.” Some say that only the children of the righteous are automatically saved, the children of the wicked damned. But that doesn’t set well with God’s word either –

Deut 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezek 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 - The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Rom 2:6 - Who will render to every man according to his deed.

 

What also concerned me was the following three questions concerning the Millennium -

1.      Why a millennium reign, for what purpose if we have eternity with Christ as our final reward?

2.      Why wait for the end thereof for the final destruction of Satan?

3.      Who are we going to be reigning over with Christ so that we need a “rod of iron?’

So, let me begin here, odd maybe I know, but perhaps some may remember Yolanda Yates, a mother who drowned her 5 children in a bathtub back in 2001. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates)

As you can see from the link, her reasoning, (even though she was suffering from severe postpartum depression and other mental or spiritual disorders), was that she knew she was failing to raise them properly so that they could, or would, make better decisions than she had. Therefore, she was persuaded that if she allowed them to grow up, they too would be doomed to go to hell. Therefore, in love for them, she killed them before they too reached an age of accountability and would be damned.

Now, not to shock or alarm anyone, but I concluded that if what she thought was true, then she was a better mother than most, for it would also be equally true that she then secured a place in the Kingdom of God for her children by her doing so. Do you see the problem? I know you do, or at least hope you do.

That got me thinking further, what if I hadn’t come to the Lord, or, what if what Ezekiel stated meant I could lose my salvation? –

 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression. As for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it in the day he turns from his wickedness. Nor shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sins.”

So, my mind wandered as I pondered, thinking, what if I were in line waiting for my approach to the Great White Throne and in front of me is this young looking individual. The line finally moves up to where he is now at the front of the line; and the Lord inquires ‘Who’s next?”

The Angel answers the Lord with a name, but continues with “However, Lord, this individual was one of those who was aborted before birth” or perhaps “was born with severe autism,” or whatever prevented any accountability for themselves having required extensive care for the basics of life.

The Lord’s response I then imagined was, “Well, since there was no comprehension of My laws, there can be no imputing of sin. Enter into the joy of the Lord My friend.”

But now, there I am next, and my despair and confusion is profoundly increased as I begin to think to myself, “If only my mother had sinned and aborted me, I too could have been saved.” Or, as with Yolanda, who then if what she believed was true and she spared her children hell, “Oh that my mother or father or brother had sinned and killed me.”

Suddenly, the awarding of salvation to an individual becomes affected or tainted with the actions of another sinner. Yet I know that can never be true. Salvation is solely of the Lord, and I am personally persuaded that it requires faith and love to obtain for it to be obtained, regardless by who. For by grace we are saved THROUGH FAITH, which is empowered and works by love.

 So, at one point, my initial conclusion was a resurrection of the unaccountable innocent (aborted babies, children who died before the age of accountability, and the mentally handicapped, and whoever else I might be missing…).

My second consideration included on the earth who had not reached an age of accountability yet, who like that with those who came out of Egypt with the fathers, who had indeed believed the evil report were told that they could not enter in, yet being children, of which their fathers accused God of bringing them out of Egypt only to die in the wilderness, those would not be killed in the slaughtering of the nations, but would be permitted to enter in.

Numbers 14:29 -31; Your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, who have murmured against Me, you shall certainly not come into the land which I swore to make you live in, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which you said should be a prey, I will bring them in and they shall know the land which you have despised.

Add also to that God’s words to Jonah, which gave further justification in my mind to entertain the notion and to conclude that when the Lord return, that He will indeed spare those who “do not know between their right and their left hand,” perhaps once more with a qualification of being under 20 years of age (though certainly those who already had been “given much” and reject the Lord knowingly, they may well perish with the rest who God deems without excuse).

Jonah 4:10 – 11; And the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant, for which you had not labored, nor made it grow, which was a son of a night, and perished the son of a night. And should I not spare Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand men who do not know between their right and their left hand, besides much cattle?”

Why else would there be necessity for “the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations?” Or the exhortation, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” which the admonishment “without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie?”

So, to me the millennium is a time whereby all those in the history of humanity who did not reach either a point or state in their life whereby their obtaining faith and love could bring them to the place of confessing their sin and believing in Jesus Christ and calling upon Him for mercy and forgiveness. This is their opportunity to truly know Him to be the only means of life and salvation, looking to Him and calling out to Him for such, that it is these who are the ones over which the saints who had suffered and were persecuted for righteousness sakes shall reign over.

These people will not be influenced by Satan, at least not until the end thereof. The sinner who is obstinate therein, will indeed find death cuts him off because of his sins, “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” But those who trust and obey and look to the Lord shall have a right to the Tree of Life, whose fruits and leaves thereof will be for their sustaining and healing.”

But at the end of the millennium, those who having lived only with the sin nature of their own flesh, yet being exposed to the Lordship of Christ and governed by His saints, some will rejoicingly confess that “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” These will be those who indeed have come to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, might and entire being; for they have indeed tasted of the Lord that He is good.

The rest of the lot will simply be those who complied out of necessity, going along just to get along. Following the law just to avoid complicating their lives with certain obvious woes if they do not obey. But not loving the Lord or His righteousness, will be easily deceived when at the end of the millennium when the devil is released again into rebelling against the Lord, and such will attempt to fight against Him and His saints exposing their true nature. After which, all the dead shall be raised again and wicked are cast into the lake of fire prepared for Satan and his fallen angel, and the righteous enter into eternity with the Lord wherein only dwelleth righteousness.

Thus, salvation can only be declared to be of the Lord because He is indeed “equal” to all of us in the final reward. For to “them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation, and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God,” not in the first 6 millennial days, or the 7th, nor eternity beyond.

Well, these are my thoughts for now… I guess we’ll all see when get there…

 

You've shown yourself to be a man who thinks. Added to this you can type and its 01:30 here, so there is no way I can match you. But I propose something that could tie up some lose ends - if it were accepted.

I understand, from Matthew 13 that a woman leavened the whole lump. Since leave is never positive in the whole Bible, and we are commanded to live our complete Christian life without it (1 Cor.5:7). The Reformation gave us some truth back, as did the Brethren and various brothers outside of any denomination. But leaven cannot be removed from dough. So suppose you, and I, went back to the beginning and started studying the Bible without past doctrinal baggage, would we not find that our premise needs to be modified. Instead of the SAVED and the LOST, we believed the prophets and teachers and had the following;

A Covenant was made one-sided by God that IN Abraham (that is, his seed) equitous kings would come, the Chiefest of which, Jesus, would cause "all the families of the earth to be blessed". Note, I did not say every man, but every family. That leaves open the fact of God's judgment on those who deserve it, but it guarantees the overall workings of God in favor of His creature.

Next, let us forget going to heaven, and let us embrace the New Earth upon which a City of pleasure and rule resides. That is, "Thy kingdom IS COME". Lt the wall of this city be the Church, the Gates Israel and the Nations divided into those allowed to enter and partake of the leaves of the Tree of Life and those not for whatever reason.  All but the condemned profit from the presence of God and His Christ without violating God's holiness or justice.

Next, we take the resurrection literally (1 Cor.15:22), and find that after the White Throne there are no dead. The Second death is active but, like the Beast and the False Prophet, men go ALIVE into perdition. And then, we take Isaiah 66:24 literally and find that men go to perdition FOR THEIR WORKS. The result would be that all the under-two-year-olds of Bethlehem NOT FACING ANY DETRIMENT EXCEPT that they cannot possess eternal life. As seed of Abraham they are blessed and privileged.

This all is a possible scenario if we stuck unwaveringly to exactly what the Bible reveals and not the Roman Church taught over a thousand years. No doubt you will have at least questions, if not objections. But the outcome of God's Covenant with Abraham (not Moses), if brought to fulfillment, would echo Romans 8 - the creature liberated from groanings.

It's now 02:10 and bed is calling. You'll no doubt thinks the thing through. But we have to jump over what Rome taught. Man is for the earth. The City of God's holiness and presence comes down to a renewed earth. Kings, led by the King of kings rule in equity, Israel plays the same role as they did during the Millennium and those found not guilty of going actively against God have access to the leaves of the Tree of Life. The rest have perdition. The overall effect is "every family blessed" and the sinners who caused affliction for others receive justice.

Thank you for your time.

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But, hey, brother, it's not a crucial doctrine. Let's let it drop and why not you find something else controversial in my OP to chew on. We've really deviated from the original title.

Simple stated. I like it.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But, hey, brother, it's not a crucial doctrine. Let's let it drop and why not you find something else controversial in my OP to chew on. We've really deviated from the original title.

Yes, it in my opinion might prove more edifying.

[BlindSeeker]

 

50 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You've shown yourself to be a man who thinks.

Thank you for the gracious words.

50 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I understand, from Matthew 13 that a woman leavened the whole lump. Since leave is never positive in the whole Bible, and we are commanded to live our complete Christian life without it (1 Cor.5:7). The Reformation gave us some truth back, as did the Brethren and various brothers outside of any denomination. But leaven cannot be removed from dough. So suppose you, and I, went back to the beginning and started studying the Bible without past doctrinal baggage, would we not find that our premise needs to be modified. Instead of the SAVED and the LOST, we believed the prophets and teachers and had the following;A Covenant was made one-sided by God that IN Abraham (that is, his seed) equitous kings would come, the Chiefest of which, Jesus, would cause "all the families of the earth to be blessed". Note, I did not say every man, but every family. That leaves open the fact of God's judgment on those who deserve it, but it guarantees the overall workings of God in favor of His creature. Next, let us forget going to heaven, and let us embrace the New Earth upon which a City of pleasure and rule resides. That is, "Thy kingdom IS COME". Lt the wall of this city be the Church, the Gates Israel and the Nations divided into those allowed to enter and partake of the leaves of the Tree of Life and those not for whatever reason.  All but the condemned profit from the presence of God and His Christ without violating God's holiness or justice.

I personal believe that our eternal inheritance is tangible, on a new earth with a new heaven, that is the realm below the firmament.

51 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Next, let us forget going to heaven, and let us embrace the New Earth upon which a City of pleasure and rule resides. That is, "Thy kingdom IS COME". Lt the wall of this city be the Church, the Gates Israel and the Nations divided into those allowed to enter and partake of the leaves of the Tree of Life and those not for whatever reason.  All but the condemned profit from the presence of God and His Christ without violating God's holiness or justice.

This I believe fits the millennial duration. The final purging of sin, with glorified saint ruling and reign with Christ for a thousand years as every other living mortal who survives the war of the Lamb with the nations, and those no proven of their faith and love, yet having lived in ages past... as per my post on the purpose of the millennium.

After that, I believe all saints receive the same wage for their labor in the Lord's vineyard for eternity.

47 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This all is a possible scenario if we stuck unwaveringly to exactly what the Bible reveals and not the Roman Church taught over a thousand years. No doubt you will have at least questions, if not objections. But the outcome of God's Covenant with Abraham (not Moses), if brought to fulfillment, would echo Romans 8 - the creature liberated from groanings.

 I agree. Only aspects of the "reformation" were used of God I feel. But since I view Catholicism as being a major part of the "Mother of Harlots," one must ask who these harlots are? Are they not all those who did not come clean, but continued to hold to tenants of an apostate religion? Remaining hostages to theological strongholds.

After who, who were they persecuting? was it not any religion but theirs? The Anabaptist and other such true covenanted groups of believers, just as were the many of the pilgrims were persecuted by the Church of England? Were not true believers the ones for which Catholicism created the iron maiden, rack, and other cruel instruments of torture?

I once many years ago wrote and article Reformation or Restoration, and asked which would have been better?

GN - I pray the Lord refreshes you. It's only 9:30 here....

 

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I once many years ago wrote and article Reformation or Restoration, and asked which would have been better?

Quite. Reform generally means keeping the framework and modifying behavior. Restoration means returning to what was at the beginning - if I'm not mistaken. 1st Corinthians deals with the habits of the Gentile in the flesh, things that can easily be pointed out and dealt with. But the sickness of Ephesus in Revelation 2 is much more insidious. Our passion for the Lord and His things wanes and we let in a ruling class among brothers. The net result, as you can witness in many Assemblies, is that the pattern of Ephesians 4 collapses, and with it goes spiritual maturity.

With the "unity  of the Spirit" already in place, we needed to recognize our low estate, and  leave plenty of room for beginners. The Lord supplies the gifted ones and they should be free to function to bring what the Lord has shown. Since all the major gifts are "speaking" gifts, a healthy Assembly should have quite a number speaking in every Assembly. But once a "Dominant" brother makes it a one-man-show, this ceases and the supply of the Lord for edification is lost

The net result is an Assembly that starves for the Word and the maturity alluded to in the later verses of Ephesians 4 never happens. Thus, instead of unity of the FAITH, we have hungry Christians driven and tossed - as this Forum testifies to.

But I ramble. The Nicolaitan system is firmly embedded and the silence is ear-shattering. Those with something from the Lord are quenched. Kinda makes a platform like this Forum double its value.

Go well.

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Quite. Reform generally means keeping the framework and modifying behavior. Restoration means returning to what was at the beginning - if I'm not mistaken. 1st Corinthians deals with the habits of the Gentile in the flesh, things that can easily be pointed out and dealt with. But the sickness of Ephesus in Revelation 2 is much more insidious. Our passion for the Lord and His things wanes and we let in a ruling class among brothers. The net result, as you can witness in many Assemblies, is that the pattern of Ephesians 4 collapses, and with it goes spiritual maturity.

With the "unity  of the Spirit" already in place, we needed to recognize our low estate, and  leave plenty of room for beginners. The Lord supplies the gifted ones and they should be free to function to bring what the Lord has shown. Since all the major gifts are "speaking" gifts, a healthy Assembly should have quite a number speaking in every Assembly. But once a "Dominant" brother makes it a one-man-show, this ceases and the supply of the Lord for edification is lost

The net result is an Assembly that starves for the Word and the maturity alluded to in the later verses of Ephesians 4 never happens. Thus, instead of unity of the FAITH, we have hungry Christians driven and tossed - as this Forum testifies to.

But I ramble. The Nicolaitan system is firmly embedded and the silence is ear-shattering. Those with something from the Lord are quenched. Kinda makes a platform like this Forum double its value.

Go well.

I could not agree more heartedly, and failed to detect the rambling.

I am tired of hearing mere theology from the both pulpit and pew, and long to here the fresh flow of living water from the heart living and walking in the Spirit having fellowship both with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Without believers having the experience of walking in light, and having intiate fellowship with He who is The Light, how can they be effectual in being witness of that Light? It is the Spirit that gives new life...

Is not that Light to be "the life of men?"

Now I fear I might begin to ramble...

Yes, go well my friend. I've enjoyed the discourse. 

 

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Quite. Reform generally means keeping the framework and modifying behavior. Restoration means returning to what was at the beginning - if I'm not mistaken. 1st Corinthians deals with the habits of the Gentile in the flesh, things that can easily be pointed out and dealt with. But the sickness of Ephesus in Revelation 2 is much more insidious. Our passion for the Lord and His things wanes and we let in a ruling class among brothers. The net result, as you can witness in many Assemblies, is that the pattern of Ephesians 4 collapses, and with it goes spiritual maturity.

With the "unity  of the Spirit" already in place, we needed to recognize our low estate, and  leave plenty of room for beginners. The Lord supplies the gifted ones and they should be free to function to bring what the Lord has shown. Since all the major gifts are "speaking" gifts, a healthy Assembly should have quite a number speaking in every Assembly. But once a "Dominant" brother makes it a one-man-show, this ceases and the supply of the Lord for edification is lost

The net result is an Assembly that starves for the Word and the maturity alluded to in the later verses of Ephesians 4 never happens. Thus, instead of unity of the FAITH, we have hungry Christians driven and tossed - as this Forum testifies to.

But I ramble. The Nicolaitan system is firmly embedded and the silence is ear-shattering. Those with something from the Lord are quenched. Kinda makes a platform like this Forum double its value.

Go well.

What is the Nicolaitan system?

[farouk]

38 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

What is the Nicolaitan system?

The people conquerors in Revelation 2, deeds which the Lord hates.

Edited February 6 by farouk