Psychedelics for mental health treatment, good or evil?

[Cyoder]

I listen to a lot of podcasts about people in the military.  Many suffer terribly with PTSD from all of the trauma they endure.  My wife has also struggled with this for many years.  We have tried every treatment we can afford.  She has gotten better with prescription medication and therapy.  I pray for her all the time.  One thing that has gotten to be more mainstream in the last ten years or so is the use psychedelics to treat PTSD, trauma and even addiction.  I have heard so many stories of people being healed with Psilocybin, Ibogaine, 5 MEO DMT, Ketamine and Ayahuasca.  Not just feeling better, but miraculous results.  Addictions turned off like a light switch.  Crushing anxiety just wiped away.  Many say they have such a profound experience that they know God is real, and this turns them toward Jesus.  My wife has debilitating anxiety from PTSD.  It's so bad that she was on disability and couldn't work more than a menial part time job.  After hearing of all the positive results, she tried Ketamine infusions.  This is where they put you on an IV drip of Ketamine for about 30 minutes.  The protocol was 3x a week for two weeks then as needed.  After the two weeks, her anxiety was almost completely gone.  She went from struggling to leave the house to working a full time job as a manager.  She still goes back for treatment maybe every 4-5 months.  

Here is my dilemma, is it evil?  I'm not sure what to think.  So many people are being healed and some even turn to Jesus which is amazing.  I have heard other stories of people encountering demons and evil entities during these experiences. I'm worried that sometimes satan will give you just enough help so that he can take your soul. 

I've tried psychedelics a few times.  Most of the experiences were when I was young and stupid and once about a year ago.  The last experience was scary.  I didn't do it to "get high", I was hoping it might help me with some of the things I struggle with.  I wanted a healing experience.  I prayed almost the entire time.  I prayed to God to only bring good.  I prayed for him to show me if the experience was good or evil.  I don't ever want to open the door to evil. At one point, I had a vision of what I thought to be Jesus.  I had a feeling of peace come over me like nothing I've ever experienced.  At the same time, a man in all white with long hair and a beard descended toward me with a bright gold glowing cross.  He didn't look real, more like if someone were to make a cartoon version of Jesus.  It was amazing and scary.  I couldn't help thinking while it was happening "could this be the devil trying to trick me?" I couldn't let go and just experience it.  I don't remember if I opened my eyes or how it ended exactly.  I know this is a controversial subject, but I was wondering what better informed Christians would think.  The one podcast, Shawn Ryan asked a Priest what he thought about it.  Basically, he said if the result was good, and it helped you and brought you closer to God he didn't see an issue with it. For Shawn, it cured his addictions, helped with his anger and he became a Christian after.  I also thought that many of these drugs occur naturally from mushrooms, roots and even toads.  Could this be the forbidden fruit or something God provided to help us?

I have seen the results first hand with my wife and I would like to see more of these treatments available in the U.S. but I still worry about it being good or evil.  Maybe it's neither.  

What do you think?

[AnOrangeCat]

As a general rule I personally believe that dosage and context matter in this. There are a good many substances that are medicinal or situational medicines but can become quite toxic or addictive. Something that comes up often in discussions of psychedelic experiences is that your expectations and recent thoughts and experiences color the experience. Bearing that in mind there's very much a culture of New Age and various pagan/shamanistic practices built around it. That's a wildly different context than taking it medicinally every now and then.

Many Christians will advocate psych meds for those who are mentally ill, some of which are quite similar in function and mechanism to recreational drugs, but draw the line at psychedelics. Why? Both affect the mind and can be used to get buzzed, albeit in generally different ways. So far as I can tell it's largely over the culture surrounding psychedelics and anecdotal experiences of people having demonic or "spiritual" experiences on the stuff rather than the Bible directly speaking against it.

Biblically speaking what could possibly be taken as a warning against it? I can think of only three things that even approach the subject. The first is alcohol. Jesus and others drank wine in Biblical times, and Paul advised a little to Timothy for his stomach, or in other words a medicinal use. But the Bible does tell us to avoid drunkenness and to be sober or sober-minded in many, many places. What I get from it is that the Bible speaks less against alcohol and more against consuming it to the point that it clouds our minds. I personally feel that this is applicable with anything we put in our bodies, not just alcohol. If it puts our judgment off kilter then it's time to quit or dial back our consumption.

The second thing is that one of the Greek words for sorcery is pharmakeia, from which we derive our word for pharmacy and related words. There's room for people to make a case on that one. It invites us to ask the question (much like psych meds vs psychedelics), where do we draw the line? What specifically was the Bible talking about with the word? It was probably not general medicine. Luke was a physician and certainly had herbal medicines in his arsenal. If it was a decree against medicine in general Luke wouldn't have written one of the Gospels, nor would Paul have associated with him. it seems to me based on the context given by the Bible and history that pharmakeia indicates substances used in conjunction with pagan religious practices and idolatry rather than medicinal use.

The third thing I'll bring up for consideration is Romans 14 as a whole. It's very, very much worth a read in relation to anything that might seem a grey area or something the Bible doesn't address directly. It primarily concerns "debatable matters", and Paul brings up eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing some days as more special than others as specific instances. He tells us that whatever our positions on them we should be convinced in our own minds, that we should do it with thanksgiving (a sentiment echoed in I Timothy 4:4), and that we aren't to allow our freedom to cause other believers to stumble. He points out that it's very possible for other Christians to see someone eat meat from an idol's temple and then go astray as a result, in which case it would have been better not to eat meat at all. Similar is possible when it comes to psychedelics. Even if we subscribe to the notion that there are potentially legitimate medicinal uses for these things it's entirely possible that other believers, especially those new to the faith, could end up thinking that the culture surrounding these drugs is also okay, or that it's okay to take them for the purpose of getting buzzed. So I'd say that any advocating for legit uses of these things also needs to be presented with strong warnings that it's not okay to use them in search of a high and that the New Age/pagan practices that often accompany then are to be avoided.

One more thing that I strongly believe is that if, in and of themselves, these compounds were inherently demonic (a notion that would seem to clash with I Timothy 4:4) we would have been told so very explicitly and in a way that would be plainly understood throughout the ages. I'm just not seeing that with things that are used in a genuinely medicinal sense.

A final warning I want to put out is that while I do believe there are potentially legit medical applications of this stuff, I don't buy into the notion that doctors and medical science are always right. It doesn't take much digging to find times when they were wrong and thought some dubious things were okay. As in all things pray and be watchful and stay in a community of fellow believers who can help look out for any signs of trouble.

[Sower]

6 hours ago, Cyoder said:

What do you think?

1 Corinthians 10:23
ESV...“All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up".

Amplified ver.."All things are lawful [that is, morally legitimate, permissible], but not all things are beneficial or advantageous.
     All things are lawful, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life]".....

The actual intent, the motive, for use of drugs tips the balance.  Faith in the use of it would be necessary.
Anything without faith is sin. We can do all things through Christ.

 Thanks Cyoder

[BornAgain490]

9 hours ago, Cyoder said:

I listen to a lot of podcasts about people in the military.  Many suffer terribly with PTSD from all of the trauma they endure.  My wife has also struggled with this for many years.  We have tried every treatment we can afford.  She has gotten better with prescription medication and therapy.  I pray for her all the time.  One thing that has gotten to be more mainstream in the last ten years or so is the use psychedelics to treat PTSD, trauma and even addiction.  I have heard so many stories of people being healed with Psilocybin, Ibogaine, 5 MEO DMT, Ketamine and Ayahuasca.  Not just feeling better, but miraculous results.  Addictions turned off like a light switch.  Crushing anxiety just wiped away.  Many say they have such a profound experience that they know God is real, and this turns them toward Jesus.  My wife has debilitating anxiety from PTSD.  It's so bad that she was on disability and couldn't work more than a menial part time job.  After hearing of all the positive results, she tried Ketamine infusions.  This is where they put you on an IV drip of Ketamine for about 30 minutes.  The protocol was 3x a week for two weeks then as needed.  After the two weeks, her anxiety was almost completely gone.  She went from struggling to leave the house to working a full time job as a manager.  She still goes back for treatment maybe every 4-5 months.  

Here is my dilemma, is it evil?  I'm not sure what to think.  So many people are being healed and some even turn to Jesus which is amazing.  I have heard other stories of people encountering demons and evil entities during these experiences. I'm worried that sometimes satan will give you just enough help so that he can take your soul. 

I've tried psychedelics a few times.  Most of the experiences were when I was young and stupid and once about a year ago.  The last experience was scary.  I didn't do it to "get high", I was hoping it might help me with some of the things I struggle with.  I wanted a healing experience.  I prayed almost the entire time.  I prayed to God to only bring good.  I prayed for him to show me if the experience was good or evil.  I don't ever want to open the door to evil. At one point, I had a vision of what I thought to be Jesus.  I had a feeling of peace come over me like nothing I've ever experienced.  At the same time, a man in all white with long hair and a beard descended toward me with a bright gold glowing cross.  He didn't look real, more like if someone were to make a cartoon version of Jesus.  It was amazing and scary.  I couldn't help thinking while it was happening "could this be the devil trying to trick me?" I couldn't let go and just experience it.  I don't remember if I opened my eyes or how it ended exactly.  I know this is a controversial subject, but I was wondering what better informed Christians would think.  The one podcast, Shawn Ryan asked a Priest what he thought about it.  Basically, he said if the result was good, and it helped you and brought you closer to God he didn't see an issue with it. For Shawn, it cured his addictions, helped with his anger and he became a Christian after.  I also thought that many of these drugs occur naturally from mushrooms, roots and even toads.  Could this be the forbidden fruit or something God provided to help us?

I have seen the results first hand with my wife and I would like to see more of these treatments available in the U.S. but I still worry about it being good or evil.  Maybe it's neither.  

What do you think?

I recommend you and your wife first read The Myth of Mental Illness, by Thomas Szasz. 

Bedore I was saved, when I suffered from PTS, I went the psych meds and counseling route at first.  But the best results for me that relieved my PTS was talking freely about it with others who were similarly situated. 

Believe me, there's more people out there than anyone realizes who have PTS and are just looking for someone to talk to. 

After I was saved, I weaned off the meds, kept the counseling and open dialogue with others going, but found my greatest ally in Jesus Christ and the word of God. He is our great physician. 

Drugs that alter your mind, found in nature or produced in a lab, are incompatible with our walk with Christ.  In Christ we have been promised a sound mind. Trust Him. 

 

[missmuffet]

10 hours ago, Cyoder said:

I listen to a lot of podcasts about people in the military.  Many suffer terribly with PTSD from all of the trauma they endure.  My wife has also struggled with this for many years.  We have tried every treatment we can afford.  She has gotten better with prescription medication and therapy.  I pray for her all the time.  One thing that has gotten to be more mainstream in the last ten years or so is the use psychedelics to treat PTSD, trauma and even addiction.  I have heard so many stories of people being healed with Psilocybin, Ibogaine, 5 MEO DMT, Ketamine and Ayahuasca.  Not just feeling better, but miraculous results.  Addictions turned off like a light switch.  Crushing anxiety just wiped away.  Many say they have such a profound experience that they know God is real, and this turns them toward Jesus.  My wife has debilitating anxiety from PTSD.  It's so bad that she was on disability and couldn't work more than a menial part time job.  After hearing of all the positive results, she tried Ketamine infusions.  This is where they put you on an IV drip of Ketamine for about 30 minutes.  The protocol was 3x a week for two weeks then as needed.  After the two weeks, her anxiety was almost completely gone.  She went from struggling to leave the house to working a full time job as a manager.  She still goes back for treatment maybe every 4-5 months.  

Here is my dilemma, is it evil?  I'm not sure what to think.  So many people are being healed and some even turn to Jesus which is amazing.  I have heard other stories of people encountering demons and evil entities during these experiences. I'm worried that sometimes satan will give you just enough help so that he can take your soul. 

I've tried psychedelics a few times.  Most of the experiences were when I was young and stupid and once about a year ago.  The last experience was scary.  I didn't do it to "get high", I was hoping it might help me with some of the things I struggle with.  I wanted a healing experience.  I prayed almost the entire time.  I prayed to God to only bring good.  I prayed for him to show me if the experience was good or evil.  I don't ever want to open the door to evil. At one point, I had a vision of what I thought to be Jesus.  I had a feeling of peace come over me like nothing I've ever experienced.  At the same time, a man in all white with long hair and a beard descended toward me with a bright gold glowing cross.  He didn't look real, more like if someone were to make a cartoon version of Jesus.  It was amazing and scary.  I couldn't help thinking while it was happening "could this be the devil trying to trick me?" I couldn't let go and just experience it.  I don't remember if I opened my eyes or how it ended exactly.  I know this is a controversial subject, but I was wondering what better informed Christians would think.  The one podcast, Shawn Ryan asked a Priest what he thought about it.  Basically, he said if the result was good, and it helped you and brought you closer to God he didn't see an issue with it. For Shawn, it cured his addictions, helped with his anger and he became a Christian after.  I also thought that many of these drugs occur naturally from mushrooms, roots and even toads.  Could this be the forbidden fruit or something God provided to help us?

I have seen the results first hand with my wife and I would like to see more of these treatments available in the U.S. but I still worry about it being good or evil.  Maybe it's neither.  

What do you think?

Are you a believer? If you are the first thing you need to do is give this to God. He is the best healer you could find on this earth.

Ask God to guide and direct you in this. If it looks like He has opened to doors then find the best Therapist you can afford that specializes in PTSD. If you can find a Christian therapist that would be even better.  Psychedelic medications are dangerous.

[Tristen]

10 hours ago, Cyoder said:

Many say they have such a profound experience that they know God is real, and this turns them toward Jesus. ... So many people are being healed and some even turn to Jesus which is amazing ... he said if the result was good, and it helped you and brought you closer to God he didn't see an issue with it

I would set this particular argument aside.

By this Slippery Slope argument, we should be encouraging everyone to indulge in "psychedelics" so they can encounter "Jesus".

 

11 hours ago, Cyoder said:

My wife has debilitating anxiety from PTSD.  It's so bad that she was on disability and couldn't work more than a menial part time job.  After hearing of all the positive results, she tried Ketamine infusions.  This is where they put you on an IV drip of Ketamine for about 30 minutes.  The protocol was 3x a week for two weeks then as needed.  After the two weeks, her anxiety was almost completely gone.  She went from struggling to leave the house to working a full time job as a manager.  She still goes back for treatment maybe every 4-5 months.  

Here is my dilemma, is it evil?

No. The clear intent with regards to your wife is medical.

I would caution:

1 - To make sure the medical practitioners are experienced with ketamine dose modulation, and that your wife is medically monitored throughout the infusion process. Before the infusions began, there should have been a thorough health examination of the patient - including heart and kidney function, blood pressure, other medications etc.

2 - Ketamine places the patient into a dissociative state - which can make one highly suggestive. It is therefore very important that you trust the medical practitioners to be careful with this influence.

3 - There should be discussions with the medical practitioners about a pathway off ketamine - i.e. a pathway back to normal without ketamine.

If you have experienced, trustworthy, diligent medical practitioners (which I think most are), then this is a perfectly valid medical treatment.

 

11 hours ago, Cyoder said:

I've tried psychedelics a few times.  Most of the experiences were when I was young and stupid and once about a year ago.  The last experience was scary.

Do not attempt to self-medicating with "psychedelics". There is too much risk, both medically and spiritually.

 

 

[ayin jade]

2 hours ago, Tristen said:

 

By this Slippery Slope argument, we should be encouraging everyone to indulge in "psychedelics" so they can encounter "Jesus".

Do not attempt to self-medicating with "psychedelics". There is too much risk, both medically and spiritually.

 

 

You made 2 statements I want to respond to. 

When I lived on the navajo reservation, the native american church was common. One of my coworkers even invited me to a peyote ceremony. I did not go of course. They use the peyote to encounter "Jesus". So so so wrong. Never use drugs to encounter Jesus. 

Never self medicate with psychedelics.

Btw, I was diagnosed with ptsd when my sister in law was kidnapped. I refused meds and stuck with therapy instead. I learned how to live with it and not let it overwhelm me, to avoid the triggers. I am not criticizing anyone's choice for getting treatment. This is the choice I made.

[The_Patriot21]

2 hours ago, Cyoder said:

There's a huge difference between someone you know was kidnapped and the years of horrific abuse my wife suffered. (Abusive comment edited out by Admin)

Actually I think you'd be surprised at how much you two have in common. You've both had someone close to you go through some really horrible things. She may not fully understand what your wife is going through, but I'm willing to bet she has a pretty good understanding of what your going through, so instead of taking her head off, it may be beneficial to open a dialogue with her, as it may help you, and if she can help you it will in turn help you help your wife. You don't have to take all her advice, but sometimes it helps to have someone who has been where you are to bounce ideas off of.

Or if you really don't want to, it doesn't hurt you to at least be polite about it.

Edited January 14 by Michael37
Abusive Comment in Now Deleted Quote

[In the Clouds]

From PBS Secrets of the Dead:

Clues and Evidence

June 4, 2014

When Linnda Caporael began nosing into the Salem witch trials as a college student in the early 1970s, she had no idea that a common grain fungus might be responsible for the terrible events of 1692. But then the pieces began to fall into place. Caporael, now a behavioral psychologist at New York’s Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, soon noticed a link between the strange symptoms reported by Salem’s accusers, chiefly eight young women, and the hallucinogenic effects of drugs like LSD. LSD is a derivative of ergot, a fungus that affects rye grain. Ergotism — ergot poisoning — had indeed been implicated in other outbreaks of bizarre behavior, such as the one that afflicted the small French town of Pont-Saint-Esprit in 1951.

But could ergot actually have been the culprit? Did it have the means and the opportunity to wreak havoc in Salem? Caporael’s sleuthing, with the help of science, provided the answers.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/files/2014/06/witch-evidence-small.jpgErgotism is caused by the fungus Claviceps purpurea, which affects rye, wheat and other cereal grasses. When first infected, the flowering head of a grain will spew out sweet, yellow-colored mucus, called “honey dew,” which contains fungal spores that can spread the disease. Eventually, the fungus invades the developing kernels of grain, taking them over with a network of filaments that turn the grains into purplish-black sclerotia. Sclerotia can be mistaken for large, discolored grains of rye. Within them are potent chemicals: ergot alkaloids, including lysergic acid (from which LSD is made) and ergotamine (now used to treat migraine headaches). The alkaloids affect the central nervous system and cause the contraction of smooth muscle — the muscles that make up the walls of veins and arteries, as well as the internal organs.

Toxicologists now know that eating ergot-contaminated food can lead to a convulsive disorder characterized by violent muscle spasms, vomiting, delusions, hallucinations, crawling sensations on the skin, and a host of other symptoms — all of which, Linnda Caporael noted, are present in the records of the Salem witchcraft trials. Ergot thrives in warm, damp, rainy springs and summers. When Caporael examined the diaries of Salem residents, she found that those exact conditions had been present in 1691. Nearly all of the accusers lived in the western section of Salem village, a region of swampy meadows that would have been prime breeding ground for the fungus. At that time, rye was the staple grain of Salem. The rye crop consumed in the winter of 1691-1692 — when the first unusual symptoms began to be reported — could easily have been contaminated by large quantities of ergot. The summer of 1692, however, was dry, which could explain the abrupt end of the “bewitchments.” These and other clues built up into a circumstantial case against ergot that Caporael found impossible to ignore.

[Cyoder]

On 1/13/2025 at 9:05 PM, The_Patriot21 said:

Actually I think you'd be surprised at how much you two have in common. You've both had someone close to you go through some really horrible things. She may not fully understand what your wife is going through, but I'm willing to bet she has a pretty good understanding of what your going through, so instead of taking her head off, it may be beneficial to open a dialogue with her, as it may help you, and if she can help you it will in turn help you help your wife. You don't have to take all her advice, but sometimes it helps to have someone who has been where you are to bounce ideas off of.

Or if you really don't want to, it doesn't hurt you to at least be polite about it.

My wife suffered the trauma, not me.  I'm not claiming PTSD because of what my wife suffered.  In my opinion, there's a huge difference between actually suffering from trauma and knowing someone who suffered trauma. Comparing the two was insulting to me.  I shouldn't have reacted the way I did but you have no idea the amount of suffering I've witnessed and been through with her.