Christmas

[other one]

5 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Supposedly? What calendar did they use? And how do you know what Calendar they used.

The Julian or the Gregorian. I really do not think so.

Also I  believe I read somewhere that the names of some months was by the number they denote.

October was eight for the eighth month, now it is the tenth. September, the seventh, and December the tenth month. I don't believe either Calendar was around when Tammiz worshippers celebrated his birth.

Dec 25 is not the dates for all the early Church either.

A quote I found follows

Begin quote

"Christmas

• According to 3 sources

 

 

For much of the Western world, Christmas is celebrated on December 25, according to the Gregorian calendar. Yet in a distinction that dates back centuries, Orthodox Christians follow the Julian calendar and mark the festival on January 7 instead."

End quote

The information comes from 3,000-year-old Sumerian writings, and it is tied to the length of days being during the winter solstice.   Not necessarily a particular calendar.  I don't think it's a good idea to recommend books that cover occultic things here, but it is available if you care to look into it.

[farouk]

5 minutes ago, other one said:

.Like I suggested, people should understand where our customs come from to follow the wishes of the Lord in worshiping him.   And even wishing him a happy birthday.

Sometimes commemorations are by way of saying, EBENEZER - 'Hitherto hath the LORD helped us' (1 Samuel 7.12).

[Anne2]

Just now, other one said:

The information comes from 3,000-year-old Sumerian writings, and it is tied to the length of days being during the winter solstice.   Not necessarily a particular calendar.  I don't think it's a good idea to recommend books that cover occultic things here, but it is available if you care to look into it.

It does not mean a thing unless we know what Calendar they used. For me that would not even matter. I am simply asking for those , that those things matter is all

[Tristen]

3 hours ago, other one said:

Then you should be aware that Tammuz was supposedly born on December 25th.  There is a long story dealing with that outside the Bible.  Part of those things that Yahweh did not want done to worship him.

I am certainly aware of the claim that "Tammuz was supposedly born on December 25th". But if you ask some people, it seems like half of antiquity "was supposedly born on December 25th".

Here's a list I just found:

https://www.biblechristiansofgod.com/the-list-of-pagan-deities-born-dec-

(I may be mistaken, but I don't remember Buddha being on previous lists - so that is new - to me at-least)

Now, I'm sure some important people were born on December 25th before the incarnation of our Lord.

My main issues are:

1 - I can find no reference to this date in the primary evidence for any such claim about ancient deities. I have only been able to trace the claims about "Tammuz" to an 1853 book "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop. Hislop had an obvious agenda to attack Catholic traditions by associating them with paganism - and is somewhat notorious for his poor research methods and application of logic. 

2 - Pagans don't get wholesale ownership of dates. For the sake of argument, what if Tammuz was born on December 25th? Does that mean no-one else important is allowed to be born on December 25th - not even Jesus? Does that mean Christians are never permitted to celebrate anything on that date? Why are we surrendering any date to pagans?

3 - If you look at the above-linked list, they are also making claims about virgin births and resurrections and anything else they can think of to diminish Christ by suggesting Christianity stole our beliefs from paganism. There is an anti-Christ agenda behind making such claims. I am therefore not buying any of it until I see the receipts for myself - and I have looked.

 

[Luther]

20 hours ago, Tristen said:

My "point" is - I can find no primary evidence (i.e. from the original mythologies) that any ancient deity was born on "December 25th". The claims of ancient deities being born on "December 25th" appear to have arisen over the past few centuries.

That indicates to me that the claims are probably made-up - i.e. after Christians started using this date. Therefore, the implication is that there is an attempt to bully Christians out of this tradition - based on false information.

 

As a non-American, I am not overly familiar with the origins of "Halloween". It might be interesting to investigate.

 

Demons don't own any days. "Witches" don't own any days. All the days belong to our God. And we should not surrender any days to pagans.

I agree that Christians should not participate in overtly anti-Christ activities. However, I would have no problem with Christians participating in a counter-pagan celebration of Jesus on the same day.

 

Firstly, there is a line of evidence tracing Christmas trees to 14th century Christian traditions from Europe. There is no chain of evidence (I could find) linking Christmas trees to gentile traditions pre-dating Jesus by 500 years.

Secondly, the point of Jeremiah 10 is not 'the inherent evil of decorating trees', but rather the inherent evil of worshiping the work of men's hands - i.e. false deities that cannot do anything for themselves - unlike our true, Almighty God.

Thirdly, you are committing the Hitler/dog fallacy - a type of Guilt by Association fallacy. That is, "Hitler had a dog. Do you have a dog? if so, your just like Hitler". Or, "Pagans once decorated trees. Therefore, if you decorate a tree, you are just like a pagan". 

If there were some inherent moral evil in decorating a tree, then sure, there might be a question to consider. But pagans don't get to own the concept of decorated trees just because they did it before Christians.

Trees can be decorated for various reasons throughout the year. To my knowledge, no-one is worshipping Christmas trees. Pagans can therefore go suck eggs. The concept of decorating trees does not belong to them.

 

This is a half-truth. "Creating an image of God" to be worshipped "is an abomination" - is more accurate.

 

This is an Equivocal, made-up, false-religious doctrine that commits the Begging the Question fallacy.

 

I want reminders of Jesus on every door, and in every room and hallway. Perish my irreligiosity - but I want reminders of Jesus posted to the back of every bathroom stall door. I want His name written in the sky - so all who see can ask, "Who is Jesus?". I want Jesus on car stickers and t-shirts and jewelry. I don't care if it's "plastic" or diamonds - so long as Jesus is magnified.

 

There's really not much more for me to say. It is what it is. I'm just not on board with the season like I used to be. Finding out the historical aspect of it and just looking around at all the serious things going on made me draw back, you could say, of being in a festive mood.

I cannot even imagine what it must be like being a Palestinian Christian right now. I'll bet you their hearts are more focused on Christ's coming than his birth. 

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

There's really not much more for me to say. It is what it is. I'm just not on board with the season like I used to be

I wholeheartedly support whatever you decide with regards to Christmas.

 

2 hours ago, Luther said:

Finding out the historical aspect of it and just looking around at all the serious things going on made me draw back, you could say, of being in a festive mood

That's fair.

For me, having tried (without success) to trace the source of claims that Christianity derived our beliefs and traditions from paganism - I now immediately and thoroughly distrust such claims.

But otherwise, may God bless you in however you decide to exalt the name of Jesus in your life.

 

[other one]

Deut 12:1-4
"These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2  You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. 4  You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.
ESV

 

[Luther]

12 hours ago, Tristen said:

I wholeheartedly support whatever you decide with regards to Christmas.

 

That's fair.

For me, having tried (without success) to trace the source of claims that Christianity derived our beliefs and traditions from paganism - I now immediately and thoroughly distrust such claims.

But otherwise, may God bless you in however you decide to exalt the name of Jesus in your life.

 

Amen, and you also.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, other one said:

Deut 12:1-4
"These are the statutes and rules that you shall be careful to do in the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2  You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. 4  You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.
ESV

 

I think I see your point here. At times we may not call out sin because of our fleshly attachment to it. Throughout our generations sin becomes more acceptable but God never changes.

 

Hebrews 13:8-9

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[9]Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

[hopper]

Elements of Christ's Mass have both continued and been forgotten far more than I believe Christ would have us reverently consider. If Christ did not honour it yearly throughout his life I see no reason for us to value it as due worship.