Is Israel's chosen status unconditional?

[Luther]

16 minutes ago, nebula said:

No, we are under a New Covenant.

Although we have "been adopted as heirs," this does not negate God's plan for the natural descendants of Abraham, as outlined in Romans 11.

 

For added measure:

Romans 9
1I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit. 2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

So then you believe God has two plans for two groups of people. All who become born of the Spirit of God  (Christians) and all who are " natural descendants" of Abraham ( if there is such a thing).  

So if I may ask, who is Galatians 3:28 referring to?

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[nebula]

12 minutes ago, Luther said:

So then you believe God has two plans for two groups of people. All who become born of the Spirit of God  (Christians) and all who are " natural descendants" of Abraham ( if there is such a thing).  

So if I may ask, who is Galatians 3:28 referring to?

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is one plan of salvation. God's desire is for the whole world to be saved. However,  this world is a spiritual battle field. Warfare takes different groups of people to be maneuvered in different ways (i.e. army vs navy).

The promise of the seed was first given to Eve, then to Noah  (not mentioned as seed, but it was the continuation of God's plan) and his son Shem, then to Abraham, then to David. The seed was Jesus. 

But was that the end of the calling on the natural descendants of Abraham? Not at all.
Again, read Romans 11.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/11.htm

The story isn't over yet.

Edited December 9 by nebula

[Luther]

26 minutes ago, nebula said:

There is one plan of salvation. God's desire is for the whole world to be saved. However,  this world is a spiritual battle field. Warfare takes different groups of people to be maneuvered in different ways (i.e. army vs navy).

The promise of the seed was first given to Eve, then to Noah  (not mentioned as seed, but it was the continuation of God's plan) and his son Shem, then to Abraham, then to David. The seed was Jesus. 

But was that the end of the calling on the natural descendants of Abraham? Not at all.
Again, read Romans 11.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/11.htm

The story isn't over yet.

Before I go to Romans 11, I was thinking about where you left off in Romans 9....you stopped right before we find out about these " natural descendants of Abraham":

Romans 9:6-8

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

[8]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

PLEASE.. I worded this as carefully as I could:

V.6 not all who belong to Israel are Israel ( those outside of the bloodline of Abraham belong to Israel as well)

V.7 there are also children of Abraham that aren't from the seed of Abraham) but  Isaac's seed shall be called (to salvation)

V 8 the children of the flesh  (descendants of Abraham) are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed ( called to salvation, the promise given to the seed of Isaac). 

We are trying to establish if God is giving further recognition to the "natural descendants of Abraham", and we are finding out that God's salvation program has nothing to do with the flesh, nothing to do with bloodlines. 

John 1:11-13

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[12]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[13]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born of God, not by any other qualification. 

 

[nebula]

13 hours ago, Luther said:

Before I go to Romans 11, I was thinking about where you left off in Romans 9....you stopped right before we find out about these " natural descendants of Abraham":

Romans 9:6-8

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

[8]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

PLEASE.. I worded this as carefully as I could:

V.6 not all who belong to Israel are Israel ( those outside of the bloodline of Abraham belong to Israel as well)

V.7 there are also children of Abraham that aren't from the seed of Abraham) but  Isaac's seed shall be called (to salvation)

V 8 the children of the flesh  (descendants of Abraham) are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed ( called to salvation, the promise given to the seed of Isaac). 

We are trying to establish if God is giving further recognition to the "natural descendants of Abraham", and we are finding out that God's salvation program has nothing to do with the flesh, nothing to do with bloodlines. 

John 1:11-13

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[12]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[13]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born of God, not by any other qualification. 

I have the feeling that you are ignoring Romans 11. ;-)

Here is the thing, we have more than one debate going on here, but you are mixing them into one.

Debate 1

Initially, Christianity was Jew-led (as we see in Scripture, it was considered a Jewish sect). The Gentile Christians had been pressured by the Jewish Christians to become Jewish in order to be a part of God's salvation. This trouble intensified the animosity that already existed between Jews and Gentiles in general. Thus, Paul and the other Apostles had to often explain to the Jewish believers the principles of the New Covenant (as we see in the letter to the Galatians, for instance).

Fast forward, as we see in Acts 18, the Jews had been expelled from Rome. About 5 years later, the Jews were allowed to return. When the Jewish believers returned, they returned to a fellowship of believers that no longer looked Jewish at all (for example, the Gentile believers ceased celebrating the Feasts of the Lord; apparently, this occurred because the Believers they couldn't tie themselves to anything that looked Jewish or risk likewise expulsion). 

So now, in Rome, we see a Gentile-led Christianity devoid of it's Jewish roots. And thus, the division flames were re-ignited, only this time this church body was Gentile-dominant. As such, Paul wrote this letter to the Roman believers in order to bring unity between them. As such, Paul was speaking to both Jews and Gentiles with two different messages that are intermixed. To the Jews, he addresses the points you are making. To the Gentiles, he addresses the points I have been making. 

 

Debate 2

Israel as a nation. 

Does God have a calling on the nation (state) of Israel?

Well, that all depends on how you interpret eschatology.

[Luther]

7 hours ago, nebula said:

I have the feeling that you are ignoring Romans 11. ;-)

Here is the thing, we have more than one debate going on here, but you are mixing them into one.

Debate 1

Initially, Christianity was Jew-led (as we see in Scripture, it was considered a Jewish sect). The Gentile Christians had been pressured by the Jewish Christians to become Jewish in order to be a part of God's salvation. This trouble intensified the animosity that already existed between Jews and Gentiles in general. Thus, Paul and the other Apostles had to often explain to the Jewish believers the principles of the New Covenant (as we see in the letter to the Galatians, for instance).

Fast forward, as we see in Acts 18, the Jews had been expelled from Rome. About 5 years later, the Jews were allowed to return. When the Jewish believers returned, they returned to a fellowship of believers that no longer looked Jewish at all (for example, the Gentile believers ceased celebrating the Feasts of the Lord; apparently, this occurred because the Believers they couldn't tie themselves to anything that looked Jewish or risk likewise expulsion). 

So now, in Rome, we see a Gentile-led Christianity devoid of it's Jewish roots. And thus, the division flames were re-ignited, only this time this church body was Gentile-dominant. As such, Paul wrote this letter to the Roman believers in order to bring unity between them. As such, Paul was speaking to both Jews and Gentiles with two different messages that are intermixed. To the Jews, he addresses the points you are making. To the Gentiles, he addresses the points I have been making. 

 

Debate 2

Israel as a nation. 

Does God have a calling on the nation (state) of Israel?

Well, that all depends on how you interpret eschatology.

I'm sorry but God's plan of salvation encompasses  both " debates" and more.

You stated: "Initially, Christianity was Jew-led (as we see in Scripture, it was considered a Jewish sect)"

Maybe you could explain it a little differently or used different words but Christianity is Christian led, since Christ is the author of our salvation. Jews that believed on Jesus Christ when he was on Earth became  "Christians".  The only religion that was "jew-led" at that time was the law of Moses. But you had two groups of Jews: the majority ( of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin which were left in Judaea) were following the law of Moses, waiting for the Messiah. Many of them were saved when Jesus came, and obviously afterwards. 

The other group were  the Pharisees, who followed the law of Moses and the oral teachings of the talmud, which officially became Judaism some 500 years later, That group ( about 15 million in number at this time) is still waiting for Messiah. 

[nebula]

12 hours ago, Luther said:

I'm sorry but God's plan of salvation encompasses  both " debates" and more.

You stated: "Initially, Christianity was Jew-led (as we see in Scripture, it was considered a Jewish sect)"

Maybe you could explain it a little differently or used different words but Christianity is Christian led, since Christ is the author of our salvation. Jews that believed on Jesus Christ when he was on Earth became  "Christians".  The only religion that was "jew-led" at that time was the law of Moses. But you had two groups of Jews: the majority ( of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin which were left in Judaea) were following the law of Moses, waiting for the Messiah. Many of them were saved when Jesus came, and obviously afterwards. 

The other group were  the Pharisees, who followed the law of Moses and the oral teachings of the talmud, which officially became Judaism some 500 years later, That group ( about 15 million in number at this time) is still waiting for Messiah. 

Definition of "Jew" -

A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

From another source:

Jew
noun
ˈjü 
1 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2 : one whose religion is Judaism
3
a: a member of the tribe of Judah
b: israelite

 

The term "Jew" is used to define a race of people as well as religious group. One can be a Jew by religion without being of the Jewish race; and a person can be of the Jewish race without being a part of the Jewish religion.

The Jewish followers of Jesus in the first century never considered themselves as non-Jews. In fact, there is no indication they ever quit practicing their Jewish religion (honoring the Sabbath (on Saturday), celebrating the feasts of the Lord, cleanliness rituals, etc.).

Acts 10:27-28 As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. He said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. [Peter refers to himself as a Jew]

Acts 21:39 But Paul answered, “I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia,...."

Acts 18:2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. 

 

Acts 21: 20-26
Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. 22What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. 24Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

26So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

 

Acts 20:16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, because he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost [the Feast of Weeks, one of the three feasts that Jews were required to gather in Jerusalem].

 

Acts 24 [Paul is speaking]
11You can verify for yourself that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city. 13Nor can they prove to you any of their charges against me.

14I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16In this hope, I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

17After several years, then, I returned to Jerusalem to bring alms to my people and to present offerings. 18At the time they found me in the temple, I was ceremonially clean and was not inciting a crowd or an uproar. 

 

When I mentioned the church being "Jewish-led," it refers to this:
Acts 24:5 We have found this man [Paul] to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,
[If you do a Bible search for the word "sect," you will also see the Pharisees and Sadducees being described as a sect.]

 The followers of Jesus were not referred to as "Christians" initially. That term came later. Initially, what became known as Christianity consisted solely of Jews, until Peter was sent to Cornelius. As congregations became a mix of Jews and Gentiles (also referred to as Greeks), the tension that arose was the Jewish believers demanding the Gentile believers to become Jewish. The Apostles later decreed that Gentiles were not required to follow Jewish customs, but did need to follow a small handful of requirements. There was never a rule given to Jews to quit following the requirements of the Torah. 

Initial "church" gatherings were modeled after Synagogue gatherings (why wouldn't they; this is all the Apostles and initial followers of Jesus knew). As Christianity spread (again, initially led by Jews), this never changed. It was only a few decades later that congregations of Gentile-believers cast of the Jewish expressions of faith in order to avoid persecution as the Roman emperor began persecuting the Jews.

This is shown in the historical record.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/5/2024 at 11:03 AM, slave said:

Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not Jews. Have you not read the link I sent? The Rabbi explains it good why Abraham was the first Jew and why Ishmael wasn't a Jew. Abraham was the first who got the Jewish promises and thus he was the the first Jew. 

Even Jesus himself said to be part of the Abrahamic covenant you must keep the law of God, see John 8:39. So there is a condition. And also Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3:29 that only Christians inherit the promises of Abraham. And what is the definition of the word "Christian"? It means following Jesus. And what does following Jesus means? It means keeping the law of God.

Shalom, @slave.

Ishmaa`ee'l ("a male from God") was a descendant of AVraam, but so was Yitschaaq (Isaac), as well as several others through a second wife later. Ishmaa`ee'l was the son of a slave woman; she was the HANDMAID of Saaray, and she was an Egyptian. She came from the Pharaoh when Saaray was taken as a potential wife for Pharaoh, and AVraam was compensated:

Genesis 12:15-16 (KJV)

15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and MAIDSERVANTS, and she asses, and camels.

However, Yitschaq was the son of the FREE WOMAN and the half-sister of AVraham, and HE was the choice for AVraham's heir. The inheritance of a father usually went to his firstborn son, but not always, and in this particular case, the slave woman and her son were THROWN OUT of the household! Haagar and her son had MOCKED Sarah and her newborn son, and Sarah was not having ANY of that! And, AVraham agreed and sent them both away into the desert.

But, God even SAID that Yitschaaq would receive the covenant:

Genesis 16:19-21 (KJV)

19 And God said,

"Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

The first son out of Sarah's womb was Yitschaq, and he was the rightful heir according to the promise of God. "... SARAH shall have a son ...." 

AVraham was NOT a "Jew." He was "the Hebrew," (הָעִבְרִי, Genesis 14:13) and that means "the one from beyond the water." Indeed, AVraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV ("Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob") were ALL wanderers or sojourners "from beyond the water"- the Euphrates River; they were Bedouins, following the herds of animals they owned, constantly needing new pasture! This word, "Hebrew," came from one of his ancestors, "`EeVer," the great, great grandson of Noach and great grandson of Sheem, sometimes translated into English as "Heber" and sometimes as "Eber," because English doesn't have an "`ayin" sound. Thus, Avraham was called "haa'IVriy," "the heir of `EeVer" who may have been the source of AVraham's first herds and the reason why the name now means "a wanderer from beyond the water." 

Paul also taught about this in his letter to the Galatians:

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV)

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid (Genesis 16:15), the other by a freewoman (Genesis 21:1-7). 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman (Haagaar) was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman (Saaraah) [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai (the Mosaic Covenant), which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Haagaar). 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to (marches in the same row as) Jerusalem which now is, and (Agar) is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above (northward) is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written,

"'Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband,' (sayeth the LORD," Isaiah 54:1).

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?

"Cast out the bondwoman and her son for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir" with the son of the freewoman (Genesis 21:10).

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Now, you asked, "What does 'Christian' mean?" Well, when we go back to the Scriptures where the word was first used, we find:

Acts 11:26 (KJV)

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called "Christians" first in Antioch.

Here's the Greek:

11:26   καὶ εὑρὼν αὐτὸν ἤγαγεν αὐτόν εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν ἐγένετο δὲ αὐτούς ἐνιαυτὸν ὅλον συναχθῆναι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ διδάξαι ὄχλον ἱκανόν χρηματίσαι τε πρώτον ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς.

The transliteration into English letters is ...

11:26  Kai heuroon auton eegagen auton eis Antiocheian egeneto de autous eniauton holon sunachtheenai en tee ekkleesia kai didaxai ochlon hikanon chreematisai te prooton en Antiocheia tous matheetas Christianous.

It's the plural diminutive of "Christos" which means "Anointed one." Thus, they are the "little-anointed-ones."

11:26  And having-found him he-brought him into Antioch it-happened but they a-year whole met-together in the called-out-[assembly] and taught people many they-were-called as first in Antioch the students/disciples "Christians."

Strong's says, "The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles, but from the second century (Justin Martyr (e. g. Apology 1, 4, p. 55 a.; dialog contra Trypho, § 35; cf. 'Teaching etc. 12, 4 [ET])) onward accepted by them as a title of honor." It's not a bad title! We ARE, after all, anointed by the Holy Spirit when we are justified by God, and we are outdone by our Messiah!

It's important that you understand that "by the works of the Law shall NO flesh be justified!" (Galatians 2:16)

And, "following Yeeshuwa` (Jesus)" means that one is FOLLOWING HIS TEACHINGS! We are only instructed to keep the laws of Love! "Love God with all one's heart, soul, and mind by accepting the Messiah of God as His Son," and "loving our neighbors as ourselves," (Matthew 22:35-40; and 1 John 3:18-24). for "upon these two laws hang all the Law and the prophets!"

Indeed, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,

Matthew 22:35-40 (KJV)

35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

36 "Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind (Deuteronomy 6:5). 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself (Leviticus 19:18). 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

and John said,

1 John 3:18-24 (KJV)

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And THIS is his commandment, THAT WE SHOULD BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST (BELIEVE ON THE AUTHORITY OF HIS SON YEESHUWA` HIS MESSIAH), and LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[Luther]

4 hours ago, nebula said:

Definition of "Jew" -

A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

From another source:

Jew
noun
ˈjü 
1 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2 : one whose religion is Judaism
3
a: a member of the tribe of Judah
b: israelite

 

The term "Jew" is used to define a race of people as well as religious group. One can be a Jew by religion without being of the Jewish race; and a person can be of the Jewish race without being a part of the Jewish religion.

The Jewish followers of Jesus in the first century never considered themselves as non-Jews. In fact, there is no indication they ever quit practicing their Jewish religion (honoring the Sabbath (on Saturday), celebrating the feasts of the Lord, cleanliness rituals, etc.).

Acts 10:27-28 As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. He said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. [Peter refers to himself as a Jew]

Acts 21:39 But Paul answered, “I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia,...."

Acts 18:2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. 

 

Acts 21: 20-26
Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. 22What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. 24Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

26So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

 

Acts 20:16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, because he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost [the Feast of Weeks, one of the three feasts that Jews were required to gather in Jerusalem].

 

Acts 24 [Paul is speaking]
11You can verify for yourself that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city. 13Nor can they prove to you any of their charges against me.

14I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fath

9 hours ago, nebula said:

Definition of "Jew" -

A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

From another source:

Jew
noun
ˈjü 
1 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2 : one whose religion is Judaism
3
a: a member of the tribe of Judah
b: israelite

 

The term "Jew" is used to define a race of people as well as religious group. One can be a Jew by religion without being of the Jewish race; and a person can be of the Jewish race without being a part of the Jewish religion.

The Jewish followers of Jesus in the first century never considered themselves as non-Jews. In fact, there is no indication they ever quit practicing their Jewish religion (honoring the Sabbath (on Saturday), celebrating the feasts of the Lord, cleanliness rituals, etc.).

Acts 10:27-28 As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together. He said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. [Peter refers to himself as a Jew]

Acts 21:39 But Paul answered, “I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia,...."

Acts 18:2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. 

 

Acts 21: 20-26
Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. 22What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. 24Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.

25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

26So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date when their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

 

Acts 20:16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, because he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost [the Feast of Weeks, one of the three feasts that Jews were required to gather in Jerusalem].

 

Acts 24 [Paul is speaking]
11You can verify for yourself that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city. 13Nor can they prove to you any of their charges against me.

14I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16In this hope, I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

17After several years, then, I returned to Jerusalem to bring alms to my people and to present offerings. 18At the time they found me in the temple, I was ceremonially clean and was not inciting a crowd or an uproar. 

 

When I mentioned the church being "Jewish-led," it refers to this:
Acts 24:5 We have found this man [Paul] to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,
[If you do a Bible search for the word "sect," you will also see the Pharisees and Sadducees being described as a sect.]

 The followers of Jesus were not referred to as "Christians" initially. That term came later. Initially, what became known as Christianity consisted solely of Jews, until Peter was sent to Cornelius. As congregations became a mix of Jews and Gentiles (also referred to as Greeks), the tension that arose was the Jewish believers demanding the Gentile believers to become Jewish. The Apostles later decreed that Gentiles were not required to follow Jewish customs, but did need to follow a small handful of requirements. There was never a rule given to Jews to quit following the requirements of the Torah. 

Initial "church" gatherings were modeled after Synagogue gatherings (why wouldn't they; this is all the Apostles and initial followers of Jesus knew). As Christianity spread (again, initially led by Jews), this never changed. It was only a few decades later that congregations of Gentile-believers cast of the Jewish expressions of faith in order to avoid persecution as the Roman emperor began persecuting the Jews.

This is shown in the historical record.

ers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16In this hope, I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

17After several years, then, I returned to Jerusalem to bring alms to my people and to present offerings. 18At the time they found me in the temple, I was ceremonially clean and was not inciting a crowd or an uproar. 

 

When I mentioned the church being "Jewish-led," it refers to this:
Acts 24:5 We have found this man [Paul] to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,
[If you do a Bible search for the word "sect," you will also see the Pharisees and Sadducees being described as a sect.]

 The followers of Jesus were not referred to as "Christians" initially. That term came later. Initially, what became known as Christianity consisted solely of Jews, until Peter was sent to Cornelius. As congregations became a mix of Jews and Gentiles (also referred to as Greeks), the tension that arose was the Jewish believers demanding the Gentile believers to become Jewish. The Apostles later decreed that Gentiles were not required to follow Jewish customs, but did need to follow a small handful of requirements. There was never a rule given to Jews to quit following the requirements of the Torah. 

Initial "church" gatherings were modeled after Synagogue gatherings (why wouldn't they; this is all the Apostles and initial followers of Jesus knew). As Christianity spread (again, initially led by Jews), this never changed. It was only a few decades later that congregations of Gentile-believers cast of the Jewish expressions of faith in order to avoid persecution as the Roman emperor began persecuting the Jews.

This is shown in the historical record.

You stated: "There was never a rule given to Jews to quit following the requirements of the Torah."

Ahh, are you aware of this thing called the " NEW COVENANT"? 

 

[nebula]

11 hours ago, Luther said:

You stated: "There was never a rule given to Jews to quit following the requirements of the Torah."

Ahh, are you aware of this thing called the " NEW COVENANT"? 

 

Did you read the verses I posted that showed the Apostles still followed the religious and cultural practices they were raised in?

Good luck ever trying to witness to a Jew.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, nebula said:

Did you read the verses I posted that showed the Apostles still followed the religious and cultural practices they were raised in?

Good luck ever trying to witness to a Jew.

Good luck to Luther, or good luck to anyone????