The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[AdHoc]

15 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

You often say that about my answers. And I scratch my head because I think I have laid out mt response to what you say. What more can I do? I really don`t understand how you can say that, but open to you explaining.

There is a vast difference between a "response" and "addressing arguments". Take the posting above. Not a word from your side although it is the basis for my argument. However, I am ever aware that you are free to answer how you like.

Go well.

[Marilyn C]

20 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There is a vast difference between a "response" and "addressing arguments". Take the posting above. Not a word from your side although it is the basis for my argument. However, I am ever aware that you are free to answer how you like.

Go well.

Thank you Ad Hoc. I`ll see what I can do in the future as I would like to have a better discussion with you (& others of course).

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I hope to show these points above to be wrong in the friendliest terms to my esteemed sister. At first the arguments seem good, but will they stand scrutiny?

1. Anybody who is washed by the blood of Christ is a Christian

OK Ad Hoc, let`s start with your first statement. Here was my answer -

1. Everyone who turns to God is washed by the blood of Jesus. However, not all know about His sacrifice.

The OT saints are called `the spirits of just/righteous men.` (Heb. 12: 23)

Those in the trib, are called `the nation of those who are saved,` (Rev. 21: 24) or offspring of Israel. (Rev. 12: 17) or firstfruits to God and the Lamb, (Rev. 14: 4) or those who had victory over the beast, his image, mark and name, (Rev. 15: 2).

So, there I was rebutting your claim and showing that many others are `called` different names rather than `Christian.` 

Is that not `addressing` your argument?

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, missmuffet said:

This interpretation is your choice.

Not really. That's the pretrib doctrine. Pretrib clearly places believers in the wrath of God. You yourself call then them 'tribulation saints'. You call the 'Tribulation Period' the wrath of God.

Believers don't experience the wrath of God, you say that yourself. 

Then how is it believers are in the tribulation period also known as wrath? 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Diaste,

Believers are set in the Body of Christ. This great multitude are still OF the nations. We are called OUT of the nations, they are OF the nations. (Rev. 7: 9)

Not in my Bible. It is written of the origin of these people, 'ek pas'. In that context this is understood as 'out from within all'. They are 'called OUT of the nations'. 

Where else would they come from?  

The description of them is saved, redeemed, translated, in the throne room, about the throne, wearing white robes per Rev 7:

"have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This is what every believer hopes for. This is the reward. This is why we wait and suffer this life and keep His commands and testimony. The above isn't a different class of people or believers, it's the elect, His friends, the followers of the Way, the Truth and the Life. 

If there is a pretrib rapture, then where is the description of the pretrib rapturees in heaven with a similar description and destiny?

[Indentured Servant]

On 11/10/2024 at 5:59 AM, Diaste said:

What you are saying in your response then is; the wrath of God is occurring, some people became believers, then God killed them.

I find it sad that people depend on "doctrine" and not Scripture.... There is a passage in OT that depicts the faithful watching His wrath as it is occuring. He promises to protect us, if we trust Him, as we watch others being taken in His wrath. He also promises to eliminate fear during this.

Knowing this eliminates the need to teach a doctrine of removing His people from the earth, only to return them to it.

I figured, since He protected the three friends of Daniel in the middle of a horrific fire, then He can preserve us while executing His wrath on others.

Of course, there are pseudo-scholars who will say that Psalm 91 is merely a promise that God will protect us from worldly harm, but that psalm is specifically about the time of His wrath, and is very specific to a singular event.

Some are taken in His wrath, others are left... not 'behind,' as fictionalized interpretations dictate, but left "unharmed."

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not in my Bible. It is written of the origin of these people, 'ek pas'. In that context this is understood as 'out from within all'. They are 'called OUT of the nations'. 

Where else would they come from?  

The description of them is saved, redeemed, translated, in the throne room, about the throne, wearing white robes per Rev 7:

"have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This is what every believer hopes for. This is the reward. This is why we wait and suffer this life and keep His commands and testimony. The above isn't a different class of people or believers, it's the elect, His friends, the followers of the Way, the Truth and the Life. 

If there is a pretrib rapture, then where is the description of the pretrib rapturees in heaven with a similar description and destiny?

Yes, they come out as in being saved. However, they are not the Ekklesia - the called out ones into the Body of Christ. Those of the nations in the great trib, come out of the nations because they are saved BUT they are still of those nationalities. That is why they are `the nations of those who are saved.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Actually, our hope is to rule and reign with the Lord ON His very own throne.

(Rev. 3: 21) `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.` 

We will rule as kingpriests with crowns. Those of the great multitude do not have crowns.

 

[AdHoc]

Dear Sister @Marilyn C, here is your opening statement:

On 11/9/2024 at 10:53 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

At first glance people do think the great multitude are Christians, however they are not. Let`s look at some detail.

1. They come out of the great trib, and while they are dying of hunger, thirst &/or heat, (Rev. 7: 16) they call out to God who saves them. They are in God`s judgment time for the nations.   

 

 

To which I countered;
 

Quote

 

I hope to show these points above to be wrong in the friendliest terms to my esteemed sister. At first the arguments seem good, but will they stand scrutiny?

1. Anybody who is washed by the blood of Christ is a Christian
2. There is no record of them calling for deliverance. In Chapter 12:16-17 the EARTH helps them - not God
3. Christ as the Passover has everything to do with the Church. 1. Corinthians 5:7 says:

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1st Corinthians is written to ALL who call upon the Lord everywhere (1. Cor.1:1-2)

 

In your reply, you did not answer the above, nor did you address what was below - the latter part of my argument.

 

On 11/10/2024 at 12:56 AM, AdHoc said:

4. Palm fronds where to receive a King. Israel welcomed Jesus as King four days before PASSOVER - not Tabernacles. But when Jesus comes the second time they will also welcome "Him Who they pierced" and weep - indicating "the day of atonement where Israel must ALL afflict their souls"

5. According to Chapter 4 the place of the 24 Elders is heaven. So also the four Creatures. That means that this uncountable company had been raptured. But if it says that the passed through the Great Tribulation then it is obvious that they were raptured at the end of the Tribulation. Israel never go to heaven. They are gathered from the Nations in which they were dispersed. There is a resurrection for Israel but no rapture.

6. The grammar of verse 9 shows this uncountable Company "AFTER" the sealing of the 12 Tribes. According to Revelation 9:4 the sealing of the Jewish Remnant is to preserve them during the Great Tribulation. This company has no such seal. The grammar also says "OF all nations and tribes and tongues ... ". The word "OF" means "OUT OF". That is, they came out of all nations, the same statement as Ephesians 2:15 where the New Man is OUT OF "TWAIN" - 1. Israel and 2. the Nations. Further, in Genesis 18:18 and Deuteronomy 4:6 Israel is one of the Nations. The uncountable company has therefore ex-Israelites, but they are no longer known as such because the New Man has "no Jew, no Greek "(Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

I am keenly aware that you may answer as you wish, and that you believe yourself to be correct. But if that is the case, surely you should be able to comment as to where I went wrong. So now, I will do as I say and answer your argument anyway.

1. The blood of Christ is NOT for all those who turn to God. There is no such scripture. The issue is FAITH in Jesus THE MAN.

2. The 24 Elders cannot be the Church. 12 is the number of God's People and 24 is the number of the courses of Levites who service the Temple (1. Chron.24). Since there is a Tabernacle in heaven, and both Moses and later David had to build God's House "according to the pattern" of the heavenly, the existence and presence is simply, logically and historically accounted for without private interpretation. They SIT on thrones before falling in worship and wear crowns before casting them down. That is they relinquish their SEAT and their CROWN. This is not the case in Revelation 20. There they SIT and RULE.

The scene is of Jesus, Who has sat in His Father's Throne for 2,000 years, now receiving HIS OWN THRONE AND CROWN. The scene is one of the 24 Elders ABDICATING, which means that they had thrones and crowns BEFORE Jesus. Added to this, their thrones and crowns are for HEAVEN. Christ's Kingdom is for THE EARTH (Matt.25:31-32). For heaven He sits in His father's Throne.

3. The uncountable company of Revelation 7 could not have died. How could they have gone through the Great Tribulation if they were dead?

4. It is true that they are found in Revelation 12:17, but there TWO Companies are found. One which has the testimony of God, and one which keeps the commandments of God. But their flight to the wilderness their presence on earth and their not being included with those who "OVERCAME" in verse 10-11, plus Revelation 13:7 shows them to be DEFEATED.

5. Your support from Revelation 21 is invalid. the events of Revelation 21 must happen AFTER the Millennium as their is no more death. During the Millennium the death penalty of Noah's Covenant is still valid, AND the rebellion of Magog will produce millions of dead. Added to this, the White Throne Judgment must have been completed because SOME of the Nations are allowed into New Jerusalem and SOME are not.

6. The verse that says "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: ... .", already annuls your understanding because they are a THIRD party in New Jerusalem. There is the Wall - precious stones (the Church - 1. Cor,3, 1. Pet.2:4), there is the Gates - Israel and then OUTSIDE are the Nations. They, in turn, are divided into TWO (i) those allowed to enter the Gates, and (ii) they who are prevented.

The term "Nations" is OPPOSED to the Church and Israel throughout the Bible. The company of Revelation 7 is "OUT of ALL NATIONS". The term "Nations of them that were saved" is different grammatically to the "Nations that were saved". The Nations of them that were saved is individual members of Nations who were saved. "SAVED FROM WHAT"? Why ... those who were found in the Book of Life at the White Throne. Lastly, the term Nations could not mean Church members because it is clear that the New Man has its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit whereas "ALL NATIONS come from ONE BLOOD (Act.17:26). That is why there are NO JEWS (a Nation) and NO GREEKS (representative of THE Nations) in the New Man (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

CONCLUSION: The uncountable Company of Revelation 7 are the slothful Christians who are only harvested when the heat and dryness of the 1260 day Great Tribulation has MATURED them.

(The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-9 are the Jewish Remnant promised in Romans 9 and 11)

Whether you answer my points or not I affectionately salute you.

[Marilyn C]

 

On 11/11/2024 at 9:29 AM, AdHoc said:

There is a vast difference between a "response" and "addressing arguments". Take the posting above. Not a word from your side although it is the basis for my argument. However, I am ever aware that you are free to answer how you like.

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Dear Sister @Marilyn C, here is your opening statement:

To which I countered;
 

 

Ad Hoc,

You accused me of not addressing your arguments. I then posted what I said and you said you `countered` it.

Thus, I need an apology for your accusation. You often do that to cast aside what I write. That is deceitful I believe. 

[AdHoc]

53 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

 

Ad Hoc,

You accused me of not addressing your arguments. I then posted what I said and you said you `countered` it.

Thus, I need an apology for your accusation. You often do that to cast aside what I write. That is deceitful I believe. 

I can't follow your logic, but if I have caused you any distress, or you think I lied, I apologize.