The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

Yes, the most  terrible time in history, never to happen again, happened to unbelieving Israel from 37 AD until 1967.

It's centered on Israel, the children of Israel, the unbelieving children of Israel, NOT THE PLANET AND THE GENTILE NATIONS OF OUR TIME.

The prophecies say: 

 and the whole world marveled and followed the beast. 

and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 

8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast

And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark 

How does one conclude this isn't the entire ground and all the people on the ground?

Titus didn't come close, neither the Mongols nor Islam cam close. The above is comprehensive and can't be explained away using ancient rulers.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

Titus was just one Antichrist who "desolated" Jerusalem. 1-7 seals, 6th seal.

According to the prophecies the time spans are two 42 month periods. Forty two months is forty two months, not 2000 years.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

"We have no king but Caesar", Jn 19:15.

Rejection of Jesus. Doesn't prove what you think it does.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

"And one is", Rev17:10.

And? 

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

What was happening at the time of Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century? Will you abandon the context of the writings? 

I don't. The A of D, the beast, the GT and the gathering and the return of Jesus all happen within a 7 year period. If you can find a way to define two 42 month periods as 2000 years then I would like to read about it.

And if you are talking about context referring to audience and how the prophecies were only meant for the 1st century listeners, then every word Jesus spoke is only meant for 1st century hearers. 

Of course we can't have that. I have heard this context argument before and I find it fails. 

 

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

The savage beast Roman Empire was killing thousands, 100's of thousands of the children of Israel. Who killed the Apostles? 

I didn't hear Jesus mention this as part of the end of the age. 

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

There are some who can't tell the difference between what is  fulfilled and what is not. So they are looking for past events that will not happen, because they have already happened.

Sure.

[Diaste]

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

Yes, the beast lasts for centuries. The statue of Dan 2 lasts for centuries. The iron in the statue is continual and lasts for centuries.

Of course.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

The iron begins in 63 BC and lasts for centuries and centuries, 2000 years ish.

Probably not, more like the 6th century AD.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

Rome is an Empire which divides and continues after it divides. History shows this to be true.

Rome is dead. The RCC is not Rome. Rome is dead and gone. You know what did survive, Islam. In greater numbers now than ever. Where is Rome and the Caesars? No where.

On 1/3/2025 at 10:06 AM, abcdef said:

It's centered on the children of Israel and what they go through, not the planet world, the world of the children of Israel.

Nope.

[Diaste]

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

 

Dan 11:40, Just because it says "the time of the end" doesn't mean the end of time.

I don't argue that. Didn't say that and don't think it.

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

It means the time of the end for Antiochus, in the context. 

No. the context is:  He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed,

So are you saying the antichrist has been alive for 2000 years? and wrath has been occurring for 2000 years?

 

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

Jesus wasn't referring to Dan 11, it was Dan 9 which takes place around the time of Jesus coming to Israel as the Prince in the 1st century. 

No. Jesus prophesied well after the Dan 9 A of D. That happened in 168-167 BC.

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

--

Most of the wrath of God in Rev has already happened. 

The seals/trumpets timeline is 37 AD-2025 and continues until the 7th trumpet which is about to sound when Jerusalem falls.

Oh? Can you cite documentation of these historical events that continue from when they happened to this day?

 

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

 

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

The "wrath" is between Jesus/God and the unbelieving flesh children of Israel. It is not centered on the planet and the gentile nations. Rome is the main persecutor of Israel which is the 6th seal 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Just repeating isn't evidence. Where is the evidence?

On 1/3/2025 at 8:58 AM, abcdef said:

The seals are from 37 AD until the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.  

The trumpets show the time of unbelieving Israel after the 70 AD destruction. 70 AD until the 7th trumpet.

So the wrath of God has been on the unbelieving children of Israel for 1900 years ish since  the majority of Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel covenant in 37 AD.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

The wrath of God.........the one year Day of the Lord was not mentioned.

The wrath mentioned in your translation is not the wrath of God.

MY translation? My word. 

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

There are two beasts. The second beast, the beast of the earth has TWO HORNS.

How is that germane?

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

The deadly wound that is healed is the beast was (before John), is not in Johns time and will come again. 

This is the little horn, the beast of the sea.

See above.

There are two beasts and the second beast has TWO HORNS.

I don't care about the time span between when he sets up his camp and his end, that is not relevant. What is relevant is the time of his end occurs before the great tribulation.

Daniel 12

And at that time (the time of his end) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Don't care about that time. The time that matters is he comes to his end BEFORE the great tribulation as we can see in Daniel 12

What you quoted needs to align with Rev 19. Rev 19 is during the war when all the armies of earth are gathered to wage war against Jesus. Your conclusion is a non sequitur.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

The Word of God says that the gathering occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days............at the 6th seal. This is cut and dried........FACT.

Technically after the 6th seal. The gathering doesn't happen till the trump sounds, to wit:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,"

This is the 7th trump, the 6th seal is the herald of Jesus' return. There is no gathering till trumpet sounds. Take heart, the 7th trump sounds in conjunction with the 6th seal, so you are half right.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Your statement is incorrect. Both trumpets and vials occur in the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

Nope. Not possible. As you can see the gathering happens after the trump is sounded. 

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Those that get victory over the beast that are seen in heaven sing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

That's discrimination. It's the people of God. The only time Jews are mentioned in Revelation is in less that flattering terms.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

 

We lack nothing. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

You certainly lack any imagery of a pretrib group in heaven. Unless you are going to shuffle the gathering around in the text to make it appear pretrib, then the  one and only gathering is of those who got the victory over the beast, after the A of D, during GT, up to the arrival of Jesus.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

One of these days you will understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation.

As you know, I do understand that. I cited this many, many times over the years. What you fail to realize is the gathering happens at the last trump, immediately following the 6th seal event, to be precise.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

 

He comes for the harvest which will be mostly Jews, as there are 144000 first fruits of this harvest and those harvested are singing the song of Moses...........again, they are Jews.

No, they are the 1st taken in the gathering from GT.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

 

The Church is already in heaven.

Then present the text that proves this akin to Rev 7 generally and this specifically:

" “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"

And....

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

According to the text the only ones taken up to heaven when Jesus arrives are those out from within GT and the ones who overcame the beast or lost their heads for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. 

So where is this vast group of perfect people you claim are in heaven before the last week begins? No text supports such a thing.

 

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

You don't get precise, chiseled in granite, timing of this because he comes when you think not. There is no perfect roadmap laid for this, or he would be unable to come when you think not.

Pretibbers always misconstrue the text. This is an argument from desperation and frankly, I'm weary of dealing with it.

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

 

John hadn't written Revelation when Paul wrote Corinthians. And yet Paul was perfectly clear.........at the last trump. The Feast of Trumpets occurs every year and the Last Trump is blown then. Also the Feast of Trumpets is the second harvest feast.

So now your insistence on the gathering at the 6th is waning. 

On 1/2/2025 at 11:27 PM, The Light said:

Nope. You need to make occur then even though the Word of God is perfectly clear that Jesus returns at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and gathers the elect from heaven and earth.

And you're right back to it.

The text says:

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect"

"with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

"52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable"

Deny it all you want. 

It's run it's course and I'm out.

Blessings.

 

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you stop there, but if you keep reading...GT then follows the flight, and the return of Jesus follows GT. So the flight has to be worse than any other time in history and never repeated, and Jesus would have been back 42 months max after the A of D. 

So no, didn't happen.

Yes, the GT does follow the fleeing from Jerusalem after the AoD.

That is exactly what happened after the 70 AD ish destruction. 

Israel fled into the wilderness from 70 AD until 1967, that is the symbolic 3 1/2 times, 42 months (Rev 11), and 1260 days (Rev 12).

As long as the 3 1/2 times is seen as a literal 3 1/2 years, the prophecies will not work out. 

 

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The prophecies say: 

 and the whole world marveled and followed the beast. 

and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 

8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast

And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 How does one conclude this isn't the entire ground and all the people on the ground?

Again, pay close attention, the "earth", the "world", and the context of the writings are centered on the "earth", the "world", which are the known areas of the children of Israel, at the TIME of the writings.

Dan 2:39, Greece ruled the entire "earth". 

Was it the PLANET earth? NO.

WAS IT THE "EARTH" OF ISRAEL KNOWN AT THE TIME OF THE WRITINGS? YES.

 Did Rome rule the PLANET earth? NO. But Rome has ruled the "EARTH" of Israel for 2000 years.

Some have expanded the meaning of "earth" and "world" in the Bible to mean planet and not the earth known to Israel at the time of the writings. 

You are looking for a Planet wide mark and rule, when it is only about the mark and rule of the children of Israel.

The Antichrist doesn't rule the entire planet earth. He rules over the entire earth of Israel, known at the time when they were written.

The GT is not planet wide, it is centered on the children of Israel and their world from 70 AD until 1967.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Titus didn't come close, neither the Mongols nor Islam cam close. The above is comprehensive and can't be explained away using ancient rulers.

Titus and the Romans fulfilled the 70 ad desolation and the GT which ended in 1967.

The Bible is centered on Israel. Not the planet of the gentiles.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

According to the prophecies the time spans are two 42 month periods. Forty two months is forty two months, not 2000 years.

The 42 months are symbolic and not literal. Believe what you want to.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rejection of Jesus. Doesn't prove what you think it does.

John 19:15, It proves that the role of Rome is significant and not miniscule as you want to make it. 

I still can't understand why, why you continue to diminish the the obvious impact the Roman Empire and the RCC on Israel, as if they are nothing. Are you Roman?

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

And?

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't. The A of D, the beast, the GT and the gathering and the return of Jesus all happen within a 7 year period. If you can find a way to define two 42 month periods as 2000 years then I would like to read about it.

I have already shown you many times, but one more,

Rev 12, The woman gives birth to Jesus, 1 AD.

The dragon/beast Roman Empire waits to devour the child, Herod.

Jesus is caught up to heaven.

The woman flees into the wilderness of the gentile nations, 70 AD.

But the woman Israel was not in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 years or months,

 History shows Israel was in the wilderness from 70 AD until 1967, 1900 years ish. 

It Proves that the Rev 12 numbers are symbolic and not literal.

Believe what you want.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

And if you are talking about context referring to audience and how the prophecies were only meant for the 1st century listeners, then every word Jesus spoke is only meant for 1st century hearers.

I didn't say that.

The Revelation shows the past, present, and future to John in the first century, Rev 1:19.

Jesus came to Israel so most of His words were centered on them. 

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course we can't have that. I have heard this context argument before and I find it fails. 

All facets of context must be considered and not just a select few.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I didn't hear Jesus mention this as part of the end of the age. 

Sure.

 

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course.

We agree that the Dan 2 statue lasts centuries and centuries.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Probably not, more like the 6th century AD.

So, the iron in the statue lasts to the 6th century? 

What is the iron empire that lasts until the 6th century and then ends?

When does that iron empire divide into 10 toes and clay?

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rome is dead. The RCC is not Rome. Rome is dead and gone.

Yes, the Roman Empire is dead and gone, it was, is not, and yet is.

The image, divided, Roman Empire still is, until perdition.

The Vatican sits in the EXACT SAME PLACE that it did 2000 years ago.

It has dominated the children of Israel and the 10 horns nations for centuries and centuries.

It's not about the planet earth, it's about the children of Israel and their world which is centered in Jerusalem.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

You know what did survive, Islam.

The powers from across the Euphrates River are Iran and their allies.

They are shown crossing the Euphrates to attack restored Jerusalem at the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial/bowl.

This is happening now.

Are they Islam? Yes.

They will soon conquer Jerusalem. It may be only months away now, maybe a few years. Then the 7th trumpet will sound.

Believe what you want to.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

In greater numbers now than ever. Where is Rome and the Caesars? No where.

Nope.

Rome is still here, in the exact same place, that it was, is not, yet is.

Caesar worship is still intact, left over from the Roman Empire.

--

Is the RCC the one true kingdom of Israel or not? "You are not a Christian unless you are Roman Catholic", they say.

Will you take the mark of Rome on your forehead on Ash Wednesday?

Is the Bishop of Rome the "Holy Father"? 

Can he forgive your sins? 

Can he authorize your execution, as he has done for centuries and centuries? Forgive their sin of murder before they kill?

Millions have died because of the Vatican. 

The children of Israel have been attacked and forced to convert and take the mark of the Vatican or face death for centuries and centuries.

 

[abcdef]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't argue that. Didn't say that and don't think it.

Dan 11:35, Okay, exactly when is the "time of the end", as you see it.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. the context is:  He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed,

So are you saying the antichrist has been alive for 2000 years? and wrath has been occurring for 2000 years?

You have your Greek Antichrist mixed up with the Roman Antichrist.

The Greek Antichrist who came out of one of the 4 horns is long gone.

The Roman Empire Caesars are gone.

The 11th horn of Dan 7 and the 8th head of Rev 17 are still here and last until perdition, which is the Vatican. 

There are many Antichrists, Antiochus and Titus are just 2.

The beast nation lasts for centuries and centuries and rules the children of Israel for that time, which history shows to be true.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. Jesus prophesied well after the Dan 9 A of D. That happened in 168-167 BC.

This is a complete misunderstanding on your part.

The Dan 11 Antichrist was Antiochus, we agree.

But the Dan 9 Antichrist comes after Jesus comes to Israel as king in 30 AD, Dan 9:25.

The passage clearly shows that the events center on the time when Jesus comes in the 1st century.

Believe what you want to.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Oh? Can you cite documentation of these historical events that continue from when they happened to this day?

You can read the history books about the children of Israel and what Rome has done to them for the last continual 2000 years. You seem to want to skip that part of history, for some reason.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

This is the unbelieving children of Israel after 70 AD. 

The 1st 4 trumpets are on the earth, sea, fountains and rivers, and the heavens. (Just like the first 4 vials/bowls of Rev 16.)

The earth, sea, and heavens represent the entire world of the children of Israel. The fountains and rivers are the river of life that flows from God, Jer 2:13 and Jer 17:13.

They are exclusively centered on the entire world of unbelieving Israel. (Not the Planet)

Rev 8:7, Where ever the unbelieving broken branches of the children of Israel are, that is within the reach of Rome, are shown as the trees and grass being burned. The olive trees and fig trees are Israel, they are burned. The grass is people, Isa 40:6-7.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 8:8, The great mountain burning is 70 AD Jerusalem. Jerusalem is covered up by the gentile nations sea. The result is the blood of the children of Israel is shed through out the areas that Rome can reach.  

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Rev 8:10, The great star burning is 1st century Jerusalem. The fountains and rivers are the river of life that flows from God, the blessings of protection and eternal life through the scriptures. 

The blessings from God continued for the unbelieving children of Israel because of the promises with the fathers, but their unbelief contaminated the flow and resulted in the withdrawing of the blessings of the covenant protection.

The bitterness is that unbelieving Israel could not understand why Jerusalem fell in 70 AD and they were bitter towards God.

They had the temple and Jerusalem, were keeping the Law of Moses, they considered themselves faithful, then why did God allow Jerusalem to be desolated? They don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and king. The majority of the children of Israel still don't, that is why this present Jerusalem is about to fall, even though there are many there who are Christians.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Rev 8:12, Israel is the sun, moon, and stars. Unbelieving Israel has 2 parts of the whole gospel, that is the Law and the Prophets, but is missing Jesus and the gift Holy Spirit to make them complete.

As a result, the light of the gospel to the world through the scriptures is dimmed. 

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Just repeating isn't evidence. Where is the evidence?

The evidence is the history of Israel.

You are looking for a Greek in a Roman Antichrist world.

 

[The Light]

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

How is that germane?

The final kingdom will have ten horns. What do the horns represent?

The beast of the earth has two horns. Hence, relevancy, if you understand what a horn is.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

What you quoted needs to align with Rev 19. Rev 19 is during the war when all the armies of earth are gathered to wage war against Jesus. Your conclusion is a non sequitur.

No it doesn't. What I quoted is regarding the Great Tribulation. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. You pretend that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet. That's impossible because the 6th seal is complete before the 7th seal is even open. 

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Believers are in heaven during the 7th seal.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

Technically after the 6th seal. The gathering doesn't happen till the trump sounds, to wit:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,"

This is the 7th trump, the 6th seal is the herald of Jesus' return. There is no gathering till trumpet sounds. Take heart, the 7th trump sounds in conjunction with the 6th seal, so you are half right.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. This has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet at the end of wrath.

The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God. You just run around with a sledgehammer and beat everything into place where you think it has to go. You disregard scripture and common sense, therefore you are way off the trail of understanding.

 

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

Nope. Not possible. As you can see the gathering happens after the trump is sounded. 

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a harvest feast. It will occur at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days, before the seventh seal. It has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel during the wrath of God

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

That's discrimination. It's the people of God. The only time Jews are mentioned in Revelation is in less that flattering terms.

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

You certainly lack any imagery of a pretrib group in heaven. Unless you are going to shuffle the gathering around in the text to make it appear pretrib, then the  one and only gathering is of those who got the victory over the beast, after the A of D, during GT, up to the arrival of Jesus.

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

The gathering if from heaven and earth. That's because when Jesus returns for the second harvest, which are Jews, He brings the Church with Him from heaven.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

As you know, I do understand that. I cited this many, many times over the years. What you fail to realize is the gathering happens at the last trump, immediately following the 6th seal event, to be precise.

The gathering at the Last Trump, which will be blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a harvest feast has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

All you are doing is disregarding the events of the 7th seal. Those trumpets are wrath and you place them during the tribulation.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

No, they are the 1st taken in the gathering from GT.

The Church is raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. The 12 tribes across the earth, that get victory over the beast, the seed of the woman are raptured before the seventh seal wrath of God. Israel, those that fled to a place of protection, remain on earth with unbelievers during the wrath of God.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

Then present the text that proves this akin to Rev 7 generally and this specifically:

" “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"

And....

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

According to the text the only ones taken up to heaven when Jesus arrives are those out from within GT and the ones who overcame the beast or lost their heads for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. 

 

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

So where is this vast group of perfect people you claim are in heaven before the last week begins? No text supports such a thing.

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

I do not think the Church will be raptured before the week begins. I think we will be raptured before the great tribulation begins.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

 

Pretibbers always misconstrue the text. This is an argument from desperation and frankly, I'm weary of dealing with it.

Please. You are the one that disregards the written word of God. You completely disregard that the Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then you magically disregard the 7th seal wrath of God and jump to the 7th trumpet and claim it is the 6th seal. 

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

So now your insistence on the gathering at the 6th is waning. 

And you're right back to it.

The text says:

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect"

"with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

"52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable"

You are the one in denial. You have the Church on earth during the 7th seal when Paul clearly says that believers are not appointed to wrath.

On 1/5/2025 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

Deny it all you want. 

It's run it's course and I'm out.

Blessings.

 

I noticed that you were unable to address one of the many things that clearly prove that you are in error.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon has already happened and Christ has already set up His kingdom on the earth. That means all those vials have already happened.

You disregard what the scripture says. You read without understanding what you are reading. 

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the mystery of God is finished. Christ has setup His kingdom on the earth. It is the time of judgement. Armageddon is already over. Those vials of wrath occur during the 7th seal, wrath of God.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

The final kingdom will have ten horns. What do the horns represent?

The beast of the earth has two horns. Hence, relevancy, if you understand what a horn is.

No it doesn't. What I quoted is regarding the Great Tribulation. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. You pretend that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet. That's impossible because the 6th seal is complete before the 7th seal is even open. 

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Believers are in heaven during the 7th seal.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. This has nothing to do with the 7 trumpet at the end of wrath.

The tribulation of those days is not the wrath of God. You just run around with a sledgehammer and beat everything into place where you think it has to go. You disregard scripture and common sense, therefore you are way off the trail of understanding.

 

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a harvest feast. It will occur at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days, before the seventh seal. It has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel during the wrath of God

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

The gathering if from heaven and earth. That's because when Jesus returns for the second harvest, which are Jews, He brings the Church with Him from heaven.

The gathering at the Last Trump, which will be blown on the Feast of Trumpets, a harvest feast has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

All you are doing is disregarding the events of the 7th seal. Those trumpets are wrath and you place them during the tribulation.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

The Church is raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. The 12 tribes across the earth, that get victory over the beast, the seed of the woman are raptured before the seventh seal wrath of God. Israel, those that fled to a place of protection, remain on earth with unbelievers during the wrath of God.

 

Those that get victory over the beast that sing the song of Moses in Revelation 15 are Jews.

The great multitude in Revelation 7 occurs after the gathering from heaven and earth and contains both the Church and the Jews that got victory over the beast.

The kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

I do not think the Church will be raptured before the week begins. I think we will be raptured before the great tribulation begins.

Please. You are the one that disregards the written word of God. You completely disregard that the Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then you magically disregard the 7th seal wrath of God and jump to the 7th trumpet and claim it is the 6th seal. 

You are the one in denial. You have the Church on earth during the 7th seal when Paul clearly says that believers are not appointed to wrath.

I noticed that you were unable to address one of the many things that clearly prove that you are in error.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon has already happened and Christ has already set up His kingdom on the earth. That means all those vials have already happened.

You disregard what the scripture says. You read without understanding what you are reading. 

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the mystery of God is finished. Christ has setup His kingdom on the earth. It is the time of judgement. Armageddon is already over. Those vials of wrath occur during the 7th seal, wrath of God.

Apologies. I'm bowing out.

Be blessed.