The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

[JoeCanada]

23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

I hear that argument all the time ... The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter

They must just regurgitate what some preacher has said, without actually reading Rev.

It's clear that the church is there throughout the BofR, except for the time when God pours out His Wrath against the unbelieving earth dwellers.

Church = bond-servants = brethren = saints = bride . These are found throughout the BofR to describe the "church" 

However, they are correct when they ascertain that the word ... the word "CHURCH" is absent after chapter 4 in Rev.

It's an extremely weak argument for their defense of a fundamentally flawed, (non-existant) doctrine. 

[Indentured Servant]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

I do find it interesting that no one bases any doctrines on the fact that "church" is also not mentioned in:

Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude.

If it's important to recognize that the word, "church," does not appear in certain chapters of one specific book, (Revelation), what does it mean that it also doesn't appear even once in ten entire books of the New Testament?

Should we exempt ourselves from worrying about anything written in those books, also? Perhaps, we can create just one more schism in the body of Christ and make a whole new doctrinal narrative based on the absence of this word. 

Fortunately, if one would dare read these chapters missing the word "church," one would see that the faithful in Christ are indeed mentioned frequently in regards to the tribulation and events taking place on the earth...

Contrary to that, it is most fascinating that the "church" is never mentioned in any references to heaven or included as any of the variety of heavenly population mentioned in those same chapters, either. Applying modern theological reasoning, the church doesn't ever seem to make it to heaven, at all...

Unless they are dead...................

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2024 by Indentured Servant

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

In Revelation 6:10 those are the tribulation Saints. These are people who went into the 7 year tribulation

and became Christians. They were killed for their faith in Christ.

[Dennis1209]

There is no question that those under the altar are Tribulation saints, agreed. How many Christians do not know that the Tribulation is seven years in length? The Tribulation is the precursor to the revelation of Jesus Christ and also the time of judgment and vengeance.

Moreover, most Christians who read their Bible, and Daniel and Revelation in particular, know the timing and sequence of events unraveling. Are they not privy to the happenings in Heaven and on Earth, are they not allowed to observe?

Why are these particular Tribulation saints asking how long. Thoughts?

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

Hi Diaste,

At first glance people do think the great multitude are Christians, however they are not. Let`s look at some detail.

1. They come out of the great trib, and while they are dying of hunger, thirst &/or heat, (Rev. 7: 16) they call out to God who saves them. They are in God`s judgment time for the nations.

2. The Lamb title has to do with Israel, the Lord was their Passover Lamb. (For the B/C He was as a lamb sacrificed for us. We never had the feast of Passover.) So, this great multitude will be the `nations of the saved` under Israel`s rule on the New Earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

3. Notice that they have Palm branches in their hands, which represents the Feast of Tabernacles. That Feast will be fulfilled on the New Earth when Israel rules over the nations. Remember that people held Palm branches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. It was for that Feast. 

4. They are not believers in the Body of Christ for we are called out (Ekklesia) of Israel and called out of the nations. This great multitude are of the nations and keep their national identity. (Rev. 7: 9)

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

At first glance people do think the great multitude are Christians, however they are not. Let`s look at some detail.

1. They come out of the great trib, and while they are dying of hunger, thirst &/or heat, (Rev. 7: 16) they call out to God who saves them. They are in God`s judgment time for the nations.

2. The Lamb title has to do with Israel, the Lord was their Passover Lamb. (For the B/C He was as a lamb sacrificed for us. We never had the feast of Passover.) So, this great multitude will be the `nations of the saved` under Israel`s rule on the New Earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

3. Notice that they have Palm branches in their hands, which represents the Feast of Tabernacles. That Feast will be fulfilled on the New Earth when Israel rules over the nations. Remember that people held Palm branches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. It was for that Feast. 

4. They are not believers in the Body of Christ for we are called out (Ekklesia) of Israel and called out of the nations. This great multitude are of the nations and keep their national identity. (Rev. 7: 9)

I have always thought these martyred Tribulation saints were all Christians. Reading your post and doing some more study, I now tend to agree with you, but the academic camp is still divided between Israel (those who come to faith in the Trib and are martyred) and Christian Gentiles. Here is a vote for your view:

9. The scene is now of the Temple, incidentally another indication that Israel is in the fore in these dealings with earth. The altar was the appointed place of sacrifice, because these martyrs had been slain as burnt offerings for the Word of God and their testimony. John on Patmos could understand something of their experience. The souls are the Jewish martyrs of that period.

10. Their cry for vengeance is in keeping with an age of judgment. How long is the well-known prayer of Jewish saints, so often found in the imprecatory and other psalms. These departed saints must not be confused with the saints of this age, who have already been seen as seated and crowned in heaven.^[1]

The question I introduced above remains, though. Did they not have enough time to switch from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) to the entire canon? They do not know the sequence and timing of events, where they are in the Tribulation period, and how long it lasts.

Anyone familiar with the Book of Daniel and Revelation should know precisely where they are in the Tribulation. Perhaps they cannot observe what is happening in Heaven and on Earth. I do not know. Do you have any thoughts?

 

---

^[1] Edward E. Hindson and Woodrow Michael Kroll, eds., KJV Bible Commentary (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1994), 2672.

[AdHoc]

The questions are too many to answer with enough proof. I will try however.

The saints under the altar;
In Matthew 13 the Lord said that the kingdom of Heaven would be leavened. Leaven is two things if you interpret scripture with scripture. 1. Doctrine that leads astray, and 2. sin that spreads defilement. For about 1,000 years, from 600 AD to 1600 AD, the Roman Church locked away the Bible and taught pagan things with Christian names. The whole lump was leavened. In Acts 2:25-34 it is clear that David who is so high in the Kingdom that he will rule a whole nation in the Millennium, is not in heaven but Hades. That is were the souls of dead men go and they RISE in resurrection (1st Cor.15, 1st Thess.4). There is no evidence, despite it being a belief of the majority, that dead men go to heaven. Some twisted verses are all that the Roman Church can produce for one of the most far reaching doctrines of modern Christianity. 

But if all men follow the path of our Lord Jesus, they must reside in Hades till Christ COMES (1st Cor.15:23). Then they RISE.

In the Tabernacle and the Temple there are TWO ALTARS. One of death and shedding of blood which was covered with brass, and one hard against the curtain (or veil) that separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies, which was covered in gold. No blood was allowed near this altar. On it was the unique Incense that the High Priest took into the Holy of Holies as the prayers of the people once a year. The reader of Revelation 6, even those with a dull mind, do not have to study long to know which altar is meant. A martyr has his blood shed for Christ and is thereafter UNDER the earth. The brazen Altar of the outer Court was not allowed to have any steps or any thing that would detach it from the earth and blood was regularly poured out at its base. Furthermore, the place where Jesus Christ was sacrificed was ON EARTH.

The martyrs in Revelation 6 are men who have died but not yet been resurrected. But they, having intimate relations with their Lord, know that the age has changed. They plead for VENGEANCE. You cannot do this in the age of grace. the gospel is one of DEFERRED judgment. That is, in the age of grace, God gives man time for reconciliation and defers judgment and vengeance.

The time coincides with Matthew 24. In Matthew 24 there calamities that bother men - but are called the "birth pangs". The end is not yet. The Great Tribulation is unleashed at a somewhat later day when that which Daniel predicted is SEEN. Thus, the timing of Revelation 6 and the first five seals, as before the rapture, is confirmed. The martyrs are still under the earth in Hades. The Beast has not yet come to power and beheaded those of Revelation 20 but God is about to withdraw the gospel. The first four seals are birth pangs and the fifth seal is God's cue to avenge His saints - a very serious matter for men who have touched "the least of Christ's BRETHREN

The white robes they are furnished with are very special. The white robes of Revelation 19:7-9 are made by the saints and are their wedding garments. Our garment which is Christ's righteousness is given at rebirth. This garment is given to the dead martyrs under the earth because they called for judgment. You see, God made a promise in Matthew 7:2. What ever you meet out in judgment will be meted out to you - and ALL MEN are sinners - even martyrs. The garments will be effective at the Bema when they are raptured and Judged.

The sixth seal - God's vengeance on Babylon for hurting His people is recorded in Revelation 18:1-8. In verse 6 God promises DOUBLE to that which hurt His people. Woe to men when God produces His martyrs from Hades.

The uncountable company of Revelation 7
Most of us drive cars. All of us have been in cars as passengers. We all know what seat belts do. The lesson is simple. There are CONSEQUENCES for what we do. If you have a habit of traveling in a car without using a seat belt you will sustain serious injuries after a collision at as little as 15 m.p.h. Do you know why we are saved FOR FREE - so that you may become an ADEQUATE SERVANT of the Lord. If you do not do what He wants, do not do what He orders, do not have an intimate relationship with Him and do evil in your Christian walk - you will suffer FIRE (1st Cor.3, Rev.2:11). If you think that you will escape judgment you are a foolish virgin. The New Testament offers salvation from what you did BEFORE you believed as a GIFT. But it is full of warnings what will happen to servants who do not accomplish their given tasks. The same applies to the rapture!

At the time of the coming of our Lord Jesus for the Church, Matthew 13 tells us that this time will be a harvest. Now, a wise man will take time to study a harvest BOTH in the Bible and in Nature. And the thing about a harvest is that the fruit is NEVER RIPE at the same time. Christians will be reaped by angels according to their MATURITY. That is simply why the discussion about a pre-Tribulation rapture has never ended. The Christians think that a pre-Tribulation Rapture is GUARANTEED. It is NOT! There are at least four scriptures that make an ESCAPE of the Great Tribulation CONDITIONAL (Matt.24, Lk.21, Phil.3, Rev.2). And there are more than four scriptures which show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation (Matt.24, Lk.21, Rev.2, 7, 11, 12, 13 and 18).

The harvest of Christians is divided into three harvests. 1. the first fruits, then after a ripening process, a 2. general harvest, and then, 3. the gleanings. The modern Pastor gets his salary and fame from his congregation. You are unlikely to hear this message from him. Our Lord predicted that we would heap to us teachers that scratched our ears. Both Pastors and Christians don't want to hear the simple truth. If you don't wear your seat belt you will eventually be badly damaged. And God has set forth a STANDARD of MATURITY to be harvested. If you are a slothful, sinning Christian who thinks that Jesus Christ is your lucky charm, you are in for a terrible surprise. Let us examine those Chapter 7:
1. They are obviously connected to Jesus Christ
2. they have palm branches - a Middle Eastern greeting for royalty
3. their garments were washed in the blood of Christ
4. the scene is the same as Chapter 4 - they are in heaven (24 Elders and 4 creatures)

BUT ...
5. they have passed through THE Great Tribulation
6. they are weeping and have to have their tears wiped away
7. dirty garments means that their works were sin
8. they are not declared "kings" but SERVANTS
9. heat and dryness are what is needed to ripen Wheat

This uncountable crowd of Revelation 7 are Christians who were alive at the time of the Great Tribulation (for the dead cannot be on earth at this time), who were LEFT BEHIND because of IMMATURITY. Their dirty garments show a sinful style of life and their tears are because of the pain and loss of passing through the Great Tribulation. The Lord uses the Tribulation to mature them for SERVICE. Kingship is a REWARD. These Christians do not earn their reward. THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES!

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

At first glance people do think the great multitude are Christians, however they are not. Let`s look at some detail.

1. They come out of the great trib, and while they are dying of hunger, thirst &/or heat, (Rev. 7: 16) they call out to God who saves them. They are in God`s judgment time for the nations.

2. The Lamb title has to do with Israel, the Lord was their Passover Lamb. (For the B/C He was as a lamb sacrificed for us. We never had the feast of Passover.) So, this great multitude will be the `nations of the saved` under Israel`s rule on the New Earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

3. Notice that they have Palm branches in their hands, which represents the Feast of Tabernacles. That Feast will be fulfilled on the New Earth when Israel rules over the nations. Remember that people held Palm branches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. It was for that Feast. 

4. They are not believers in the Body of Christ for we are called out (Ekklesia) of Israel and called out of the nations. This great multitude are of the nations and keep their national identity. (Rev. 7: 9)

I hope to show these points above to be wrong in the friendliest terms to my esteemed sister. At first the arguments seem good, but will they stand scrutiny?

1. Anybody who is washed by the blood of Christ is a Christian
2. There is no record of them calling for deliverance. In Chapter 12:16-17 the EARTH helps them - not God
3. Christ as the Passover has everything to do with the Church. 1. Corinthians 5:7 says:

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1st Corinthians is written to ALL who call upon the Lord everywhere (1. Cor.1:1-2)

4. Palm fronds where to receive a King. Israel welcomed Jesus as King four days before PASSOVER - not Tabernacles. But when Jesus comes the second time they will also welcome "Him Who they pierced" and weep - indicating "the day of atonement where Israel must ALL afflict their souls"

5. According to Chapter 4 the place of the 24 Elders is heaven. So also the four Creatures. That means that this uncountable company had been raptured. But if it says that the passed through the Great Tribulation then it is obvious that they were raptured at the end of the Tribulation. Israel never go to heaven. They are gathered from the Nations in which they were dispersed. There is a resurrection for Israel but no rapture.

6. The grammar of verse 9 shows this uncountable Company "AFTER" the sealing of the 12 Tribes. According to Revelation 9:4 the sealing of the Jewish Remnant is to preserve them during the Great Tribulation. This company has no such seal. The grammar also says "OF all nations and tribes and tongues ... ". The word "OF" means "OUT OF". That is, they came out of all nations, the same statement as Ephesians 2:15 where the New Man is OUT OF "TWAIN" - 1. Israel and 2. the Nations. Further, in Genesis 18:18 and Deuteronomy 4:6 Israel is one of the Nations. The uncountable company has therefore ex-Israelites, but they are no longer known as such because the New Man has "no Jew, no Greek "(Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

[Marilyn C]

53 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have always thought these martyred Tribulation saints were all Christians. Reading your post and doing some more study, I now tend to agree with you, but the academic camp is still divided between Israel (those who come to faith in the Trib and are martyred) and Christian Gentiles. Here is a vote for your view:

9. The scene is now of the Temple, incidentally another indication that Israel is in the fore in these dealings with earth. The altar was the appointed place of sacrifice, because these martyrs had been slain as burnt offerings for the Word of God and their testimony. John on Patmos could understand something of their experience. The souls are the Jewish martyrs of that period.

10. Their cry for vengeance is in keeping with an age of judgment. How long is the well-known prayer of Jewish saints, so often found in the imprecatory and other psalms. These departed saints must not be confused with the saints of this age, who have already been seen as seated and crowned in heaven.^[1]

The question I introduced above remains, though. Did they not have enough time to switch from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) to the entire canon? They do not know the sequence and timing of events, where they are in the Tribulation period, and how long it lasts.

Anyone familiar with the Book of Daniel and Revelation should know precisely where they are in the Tribulation. Perhaps they cannot observe what is happening in Heaven and on Earth. I do not know. Do you have any thoughts?

 

---

^[1] Edward E. Hindson and Woodrow Michael Kroll, eds., KJV Bible Commentary (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1994), 2672.

Thanks Dennis. Interesting.

I see those Jewish martyrs under the altar, (symbolic of them `fleeing` to God for His mercy) as a different group than the great multitude. (Not sure if that is what you or the person writing meant.

The Old Testament is for Israel giving them the details of the trib. (Dan. 9: 24 etc) The New Testament is of no value as the Holy Spirit is not building them together as a body in Christ. Israelis will be looking for their coming Messiah, their King. Those of the nations will also be looking for that as they are still of the nations.