Wrath v Great Tribulation

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Another thing to note is that there are two brides. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the Chosen Bride Rachel.

I fail to see the significance of this statement. Can you explain.

.................... 

Esau had 3 wives ... Lamech had 2 wives ... King David had more than 8 wives ...

Solomon had 700 wives

2 hours ago, The Light said:

 

 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Yes, they really know the wrath of God is coming because if you look at the scriptures below you should see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur when Jesus comes in Matthew 24. From the two scriptures below, we can make some logical conclusions.

1. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. (the second coming. But He remains in the clouds and sends the angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth) It is a harvest.

yes ... agreed.

Not only is it "a harvest" as you said, but it is "the harvest" as Paul tells us in         1Cor 15:23 ... "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father" ... and in Rev 20:5 ".... this is the first resurrection ... blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power"

2 hours ago, The Light said:

The harvest at the 6th seal is shown here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Yes .... the main harvest of the righteous, and unrighteous

[The Light]

9 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

The first thing we can see is that the 144,000 remain on the earth, where the judgements are carried out.

I would have to think that 99.9999999999% of all Biblical scholars of Revelation would agree with that comment.

However, this is not correct. 

We see that the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7 and we are told in Revelation 9 that no one is stung except those that are not sealed. This leads us to falsely conclude that the 144,000 remain on the earth during the wrath of God. 

For you to understand that the 144,000 do not remain on the earth during the wrath of God is going to take "top shelf" logic. This is long and I will do the best I can to explain it to you.

First, we see that the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7. When you have the seal of God you are a believer. Then we see a great multitude in heaven, some who came out of great tribulation. This tells you there has been a harvest. In Revelation 14 we see that the 144,000 are first fruits of a harvest.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

So how does that work? I'm telling you the 144,000 are not on earth during the wrath of God...........and yet we see them in Revelation 14. It's simple. The wrath of God is already over. Let's prove that.

When the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God is finished. It's done, it's over.

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This means Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. Armageddon is already over. The wrath of God is OVER. It is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What I'm telling you is that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over, Christ has set up the millennial kingdom and it is the time of judgement.

So when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are getting a different view of what happens in the first 6 seals.  

The order of events are as follows in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14.

* The 144,000 that we see sealed in Revelation 7 have to be sealed earlier somewhere in the first four seals which we can prove be Revelation 14.

** We see the 144,000 are first fruits in Revelation 14.

*** Then we see the great tribulation in Revelation 14

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

**** We also see the great tribulation at the 5th seal.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

***** Then we see the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

****** We see the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the harvest, seen also in Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't know if I explained this well enough to follow, but the 144,000 are not on the earth for the wrath of God. They are removed from the earth before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus comes for the harvest immediately after the tribulation of those days which is the 6th seal

[The Light]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I fail to see the significance of this statement. Can you explain.

.................... 

Esau had 3 wives ... Lamech had 2 wives ... King David had more than 8 wives ...

Solomon had 700 wives

 

Jacob is Israel and the tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. Jacob is the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. 

There are two folds. The first fold comes in and then the Chosen fold.

 

[The Light]

19 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

yes ... agreed.

Not only is it "a harvest" as you said, but it is "the harvest" as Paul tells us in         1Cor 15:23 ... "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father" ... and in Rev 20:5 ".... this is the first resurrection ... blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power"

Yes .... the main harvest of the righteous, and unrighteous

The harvest FROM THE EARTH at the 6th seal are Jews. They sing the song of Moses. The are the harvest after the 144,000 first fruits.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

[Triton57]

On 12/7/2024 at 8:11 AM, The Light said:

This may be confusing at this point. The 144,000 are first fruits of the seed of the woman, Israel. They are the 12 tribes across the earth. When the dragon can't get to the woman, those that fled to a place of protection, he goes after the Jews around the world. 

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Another thing to note is that there are two brides. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the Chosen Bride Rachel.

I am having trouble getting it to quote different breaks in your post. I am going to have to separate them into single posts. Sorry about that. I don't know why. Only seems to happen when a color is changed, like you using red, but that's not always the case. Could be the browser?

I agree, in fact I think Revelation 12:13-17 is the key to understanding the two phases of the great tribulation, which is the Dragon's wrath on God's people. This is opposed to the day of the Lord, which is God's wrath on the Dragon's people.

We know from the 4 places where unparalleled tribulation is mentioned, Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:15-27, and Mark 13:14-23, that it is a time for Jacob, Israel, Judea, and Jerusalem specifically. We see this paralleled in Revelation 12:14-16, which I believe starts at the abomination of desolation when Michael stands up to cast the Dragon out of heaven and the time of Jacob's trouble begins.

But this first phase in Judea is cut short for the sake of those there. We see that they are taken on wings of an eagle to the wilderness. From the Olivet Discourse Yeshua states that it is immediately after this unparalleled tribulation that is cut short that the sixth seal happens, and Revelation 6-8 shows the results of the woman being sealed in the wilderness and the multitudes in heaven from their gathering at His coming.

It is only after they are protected from the Dragon for 1,260 days in the wilderness that he then goes after the remnant of her seed and those holding the testimony of Christ. But we just saw that Yeshua gathered the bride, so the only people holding the testimony of Yeshua on earth would be the foolish virgins shut out of the marriage, but cast into great tribulation (Revelation 2:22), the hour of temptation. (Revelation 3:10) The remnant of the woman's seed would be those faithful of Israel not in Judea, since all those have been protected from the face of the Dragon.

Combining this with the exact-day framework of the 70th week, the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea and Jerusalem can only be 30 days long. It's the remainder of the 1,230 days of the Dragon's reign through his false christ that the mark of the beast, etc. comes into play and the diverse 4 beasts of Daniel 7 that represent the main powers of the world are joined into the Dragon in Revelation 13 as the whole world wonders after the beast that was and was not and is.

And I agree about the 144,000 being the firstfruits of unblinded Israel. I know of one type of people who fit this description, young men. They are virgins, male because they aren’t defiled with women, their mouth has no guile and they are without fault before the throne of God. In Jewish tradition, a Bar Mitzvah is held at the age of 13. The term means “son of the commandment.” It is at this age that Jewish children are obligated to observe the commandments. This would be the age of accountability. I believe these will be 144,000 Jewish boys who understand and love the Lord their God with all their hearts and minds. I believe God, among other things, will use them as a witness among their parents in the wilderness to bring them to understand after the blindness of Israel has been lifted. Just another assumption of mine from the text that I'm not dogmatic about, just thought it was interesting.

[Triton57]

On 12/7/2024 at 8:36 AM, The Light said:

Yes, they really know the wrath of God is coming because if you look at the scriptures below you should see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur when Jesus comes in Matthew 24. From the two scriptures below, we can make some logical conclusions.

1. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. (the second coming. But He remains in the clouds and sends the angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth) It is a harvest.

3. The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

I agree with point 1 and believe Yeshua's coming and the sixth seal are likely tied to Yom Teruah, 9/10 days before Yom Kippur, which I believe is when the wrath of God begins.

As I pointed out in my previous post about the 7 trumpets not being handed out until after the 7th seal is broken, I do technically have a different view than you and don't think the wrath of God begins at the sixth seal. I think the people of earth recognize it's soon arrival, but none of the trumpets or bowls have been given to the angels yet at that point.

However, given that it's at most 10 days between the sixth seal and the first trumpet in my view, we're effectively on the same page timing-wise.

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2. When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 the tribulation is over. That tells us the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-13
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The harvest at the 6th seal is shown here.

Revelation 14:14-19
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I think it's important to clarify Matthew 24:29-31 is pointing to the previous verses when it says "immediately after the tribulation of those days." In my previous post I mentioned the two phases of the great tribulation that separate the unparalleled tribulation tied to Israel, Jacob, Judea, Jerusalem specifically. Even keeping in the context of just Matthew 24:15-31, only those in Judea are told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

As Revelation 12:13-17 points out, the global phase of the great tribulation happens once the woman is protected from the Dragon. It's only the woman in Judea that is protected, the remnant of her seed is still globally present.

With the framework of exact-day prophecies, that unparalleled tribulation in Judea can only be 30 days long because the woman is both persecuted by the false christ whose 1,260 days of power begins at the abomination of desolation and she is protected from him for 1,260 days. This all exists within a 1,290 day period, leaving only 30 days at the start of the abomination of desolation that this unparalleled Judean Jacob's trouble can exist within, and that is cut short for their sakes.

So I disagree with this point that the tribulation, being the 42 months of the reign of the false christ, is over at the sixth seal. Only the first phase of 30 days is over at this point as I understand it. The harvest and protection in the wilderness of the woman happen at Christ's parousia as Revelation 6-8 confirm, and the woman is protected there for 1,260 days, or 3.5 years.

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4. The second coming at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation is not when Jesus sets up His kingdom when He comes to earth. When He comes to earth after the wrath of God, the 7th seal.

I agree His second coming is not when he takes the kingdoms and sets up His, that is after the wrath and Armageddon. As I mentioned before, I just see the seals, trumpets, and bowls differently than you do from scripture. I feel my understanding is supported by multiple scriptures and "the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion" in Isaiah 34 is not sufficient to limit God's wrath to one year when the framework of exact-days, order of the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and sequence of Christ's coming depicted in scripture all point to a period of 3.5 years from the sixth seal to the end of the 70th week. It is something I will dwell on some more however.

[Triton57]

On 12/7/2024 at 11:20 AM, JoeCanada said:

Not only is it "a harvest" as you said, but it is "the harvest" as Paul tells us in         1Cor 15:23 ... "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father" ... and in Rev 20:5 ".... this is the first resurrection ... blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power"

To add to this, there's a connection not only to the appointed times being fulfilled at Christ's first coming as the first fruits of the resurrection, but each year there was the first fruits that were offered to God on the Sunday within Unleavened Bread that pointed to Christ. These were the first of the harvest of the crops.

Then there was the regular harvest of the grain crops after the first fruits. There were several different types of grain crops that ripen at different times, so the harvest would happen in waves to harvest each crop as it ripened through to Shavuot and beyond as needed.

The gleaning for each crop was to be left for the poor and stranger to harvest.

We see also Christ was resurrected first, then at His coming, then after Armageddon. These are all the first resurrection, which for me was confusing at first since the second to last resurrection was called the first resurrection. Then I understood it more in the context of the following.

Acts 24:14-15
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So in this context, the first resurrection is that of the just over several harvests and the last resurrection is at the very end. Agriculture is used so much to symbolize so many things in scripture. I probably would have digested some things sooner if I was a farmer and not just buying food from the grocery store my whole life.

[Triton57]

On 12/7/2024 at 11:58 AM, The Light said:

We see that the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7 and we are told in Revelation 9 that no one is stung except those that are not sealed. This leads us to falsely conclude that the 144,000 remain on the earth during the wrath of God. 

For you to understand that the 144,000 do not remain on the earth during the wrath of God is going to take "top shelf" logic. This is long and I will do the best I can to explain it to you.

First, we see that the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7. When you have the seal of God you are a believer. Then we see a great multitude in heaven, some who came out of great tribulation. This tells you there has been a harvest. In Revelation 14 we see that the 144,000 are first fruits of a harvest.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I feel it's important to accept all scripture must be in agreement somehow.

Revelation 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Why should the four angels who will hurt the earth and the sea be told not to do so until the 144,000 are sealed, keeping in mind that the 7 angels don't yet have their trumpets to blow since the 7th seal has not yet been broken? I would posit that the hurting of the earth and sea that is part of the wrath of God is held back until they are sealed because they exist in the place that will be hurt by the wrath of God and so they must be sealed before that wrath begins.

Revelation 14:1-5
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Now we see the beginning of Revelation 14, which includes an angel preaching the Gospel to all those on the Earth that the hour of judgement is come, an angel proclaiming the fall of Babylon, an angel warning against the taking of the mark and worship of the beast drinking from the wine of the wrath of God, a blessing for those who die from that point on, a harvest of the Earth that is presumably the saints because it's followed by another harvest that is cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. Some of this seems all over the place in terms of timing, but to me it all seems pointed to the time around the midst of the 70th week.

The seventh trumpet sounded back in Revelation 11 and then we transition to Revelation 12-14, which cover various aspects outside of the clear progression of time we've seen from Revelation 5-11. Why, 7 trumpets in, preach the Gospel, warn the earth that the hour of judgement is come, warn of the mark and beast worship, the blessing of those who die from the 7th trumpet on, and the harvest to heaven and the wrath of God? Now some would say only the bowls are the wrath of God, which I disagree with for some of the reasons I've already covered. It's clear the earth and sea are hurt by the trumpets and that the 144,000 are sealed while even the wind is actively held back before the trumpets begin.

They are the firstfruits from the 12 tribes of Israel who were not already called to be the bride for two millennia previously. They clearly have a special relationship with the Lamb, there is no doubt.

Is the Lamb standing on Zion, Jerusalem, or is this in heaven? It's clear they are singing a new song before the throne, the four beasts and elders, which we know is in heaven, or is this aspect of them more figurative like Revelation 12-14 have been? Yet it's also clear they are on the earth. When is this happening in the timeline of events?

I can't say I know the answers to all these questions apart from the idea that this vision in Revelation 14 is supposed to give us a more general view of the identities of the 144,000 aside from them being from the 12 tribes. They have a special relationship with the Lamb, and after the 70th week is over and the period of protection is no longer needed when they come out of the wilderness with the rest of the 12 tribes into the Promised Land, they will hold a special place with Christ in Jerusalem during His reign and will sing a new song in heaven, outside of space and time and above our current dimensional perception. It's not meant to be a literal timeline, like Revelation 11-13 it is identifying them.

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So how does that work? I'm telling you the 144,000 are not on earth during the wrath of God...........and yet we see them in Revelation 14. It's simple. The wrath of God is already over. Let's prove that.

When the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God is finished. It's done, it's over.

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This means Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth. Armageddon is already over. The wrath of God is OVER. It is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What I'm telling you is that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over, Christ has set up the millennial kingdom and it is the time of judgement.

The trumpet is sounding for days plural, this is only when he is beginning to sound. It isn't until Revelation 15, after the identity chapters, that the seven angels are given the seven last plagues. I agree that the mystery of God is finished with the completion of the seventh trumpet, but the bowls exist within the blowing of the seventh trumpet and so the seventh trumpet is not done until the seven bowls are done.

So I agree with the caveat that it is when the seventh trumpet has completed blowing, these things are all finished. It is during the time it is blowing that the final 7 bowls that fill up the wrath of God are being poured out.

However, when it comes to timing, this is not at the sixth seal for the reasons I've already gone over. The sixth seal must be about the midst of the week, which means the 6 trumpets and the 7th trumpet during which the final bowls of wrath are poured out happens over the final 1,230 days of the reign of the false christ leading to Armageddon where Christ ends his 1,260-day reign that began at the abomination of desolation.

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So when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are getting a different view of what happens in the first 6 seals.  

The order of events are as follows in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14.

* The 144,000 that we see sealed in Revelation 7 have to be sealed earlier somewhere in the first four seals which we can prove be Revelation 14.

** We see the 144,000 are first fruits in Revelation 14.

*** Then we see the great tribulation in Revelation 14

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

**** We also see the great tribulation at the 5th seal.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

***** Then we see the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

****** We see the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the harvest, seen also in Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't know if I explained this well enough to follow, but the 144,000 are not on the earth for the wrath of God. They are removed from the earth before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus comes for the harvest immediately after the tribulation of those days which is the 6th seal

Due to the reasons I gave from scripture, I do not hold to a concurrent recapitulation view of the seals, trumpets, and bowls. I feel scripture is clear in its delineating the seals as keeping the scroll of God's judgements closed until one worthy to open and carry out the judgement is present to do so. Once the 7 seals are broken, the scroll can be opened and read in its fullness and then the 7 trumpets are given to the seven angels. Once the 7th trumpet begins to sound, the 7 angels are given the seven bowls that fill up the seven last plagues of the wrath of God. This is a definitive consecutive progression that fits with scripture in my view. I do however vary with some in that I think the 7 bowls happen during the 7th trumpet blowing making the third woe the woeiest woe.

I do agree the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble is represented in the 5th seal, but specifically that first 30 days of the reign of the false christ in Judea. That time is cut short by the 6th seal in my view.

I think aside from the concurrent recapitulation of the seals, trumpets, and bowls we are not that far apart from each other. I see Revelation 14 less in a timeframe aspect and more of an identity aspect.

Your view:

* The 144,000 that we see sealed in Revelation 7 have to be sealed earlier somewhere in the first four seals which we can prove be Revelation 14. (4th)
** We see the 144,000 are first fruits in Revelation 14. (4th I would combine this with the above)
*** Then we see the great tribulation in Revelation 14 (1st I would combine this with below)
**** We also see the great tribulation at the 5th seal. (1st)
***** Then we see the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. (2nd)
****** We see the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the harvest, seen also in Matthew 24 (3rd)

My view:

* Abomination of desolation/Jacob's Trouble/unparalleled tribulation/5th seal & Gospel and warning of the mark in Revelation 14
** Parousia/6th seal
*** Harvest of Matthew 24:29-31 & Revelation 7:9-17
**** Sealing 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 and described in Revelation 14:1-5

[Retrobyter]

On 12/7/2024 at 3:22 AM, Triton57 said:

This is what I found in my study of scripture. More generally, the day of the Lord is the beginning of God's wrath and the sixth seal comes before it, as you've said.

 

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

Isaiah 13:9-11

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

Isaiah 2:12, 19-21

For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ... And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Then, Revelation 7 speaks to the multitude in heaven before the throne that was before in Revelation 4:6 just a sea of crystal, now contains multitudes. It also speaks to the sealing of the 144,000, which I think demonstrates from Revelation 12:14-17 that faithful Israel who is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble when it's cut short is saved at the same time as the bride is caught up, a Yeshua's return.

 

What I don't often see pointed out in terms of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are several clear passages that clearly separate them from each other and indicate God's wrath. Firstly, it is at the sixth seal that even the ones who reject Yeshua have the idea planted that the wrath of God has come when the sixth seal happens. Do they really know this? I don't know, but they are clearly afraid and hiding in fear and scripture states they recognize it. Now I know some hold that only the bowls are God's wrath, but I think Revelation 6 and 7 speak to something different.

 

Revelation 7:1-3

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Revelation 9:1-4

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

The first thing we can see is that the 144,000 remain on the earth, where the judgements are carried out. This is why they need to hold back the hurting of the earth, sea, and trees until the 144,000 were sealed, because this is their protection from the result of the fifth trumpet. It would seem to me that the holding back of the continuation on to the seventh and final seal being broken would indicate the sealing of protection for those 144,000 remaining on the earth is tied to protection from the judgement coming and therefore the trumpets are tied to God's wrath just as the people of earth realized at the sixth seal.

 

Revelation 8:1-2

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

Regarding whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen at the same time or are sequential, I think it's important to point out that it was not until the seventh seal is broken that the seven angels are even given their trumpets. Therefore it does not seem logical to tie the first seal with the first trumpet and first bowl etc. as some do. Rather scripture creates a dividing line that the seals are not God's wrath and are separate from the trumpets and bowls, which are God's wrath and the result of opening the scroll that would seem to have those judgements.

 

Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

The final three trumpets are the 3 woes, which distinguishes them somewhat from any other seals or bowls with the exception of the idea that the seventh angel blowing the trumpet lasts for days plural. I think this must last for more than just a few days because the armies that gather to fight Yeshua when He returns aren't able to be gathered until the 6th bowl when the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the gathering to Armageddon. I imagine it will take some time for this massive army to travel there. Since the mystery of God will be finished in the days of the seventh trumpet, I think it must be sounding throughout the duration of the seven bowls.

 

Revelation 15:1, 5-8

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

As seen from the seals to trumpets, we see a distinction from the trumpets to the bowls when one of the four beasts gives the bowls full of the wrath of God, the filling up or completion of it, to the seven angels that will pour them out. This is after the seventh trumpet began to sound, which was six trumpets after the seventh seal was broken.

 

So I think there is a distinct sequence through 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and while the 7th trumpet sounds over a period of time, the bowls are all poured out. The sixth bowl must take a decent amount of time because it's the prerequisite for large scale armies traveling across the Euphrates to Jerusalem to be defeated by Yeshua at His return.

 

Furthermore, it seems clear to me that the trumpets are indeed the start of the wrath of God as their destruction is evident throughout and because the seven bowls fill up the wrath of God, indicating there was an aspect of God's wrath before them. This is in agreement with the people of earth recognizing God's wrath had arrived at the sixth seal.

 

My personal perspective is that the first seal is the start of the 70th week and goes through to the fifth seal that is Jacob's trouble, the sixth seal cuts that time short with Yeshua's arrival and catching away of the bride around Yom Teruah, and rescuing of Israel through the days of awe leading to the day of the Lord and the first trumpet on Yom Kippur. Meanwhile Israel is protected in the wilderness during Sukkot and throughout the rest of the week as God judges the world until His return to establish His Messianic Kingdom.

Shalom, @Triton57.

I commend you for your ability to reason through a matter. That gives you a "leg up."

HOWEVER, you've made some assumptions that mess up your reasoning:

First, there's more than one "day of the LORD" in prophecy. Sometimes, the prophecy is speaking about "THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE" Day of the LORD, as in Joel 2:31, but other times the prophecy is about a nearer day of the LORD, such as in Isaiah 13:9-11, when Nebuchadnezzar invaded the Land of Israel. (Read the WHOLE chapter.)

Sometimes the Hebrew word "הָאָרֶץ" or "haa'aarets" means "the earth" (as in "the dirt"), and sometimes it means "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel. Very seldom does the word actually mean "the whole planet!"

Also, the Hebrew word "הַשָּׁמַיִם" or "hashshaamayim" means "the skies," even though it is translated as "the heaven" or even "the heavens." It is a DUAL word: In Hebrew, they have the singular number and the plural, but they also have the DUAL number. It is used for things that come in pairs. Here, it refers to the "day sky" and the "night sky," the pair for the atmosphere around this planet and what we may see in it.

Prophecies MUST be read and interpreted within their contexts. One cannot just take a few verses that SOUND like they're talking about a particular subject, and expect it to be really talking about that subject!

Second, who says that the "Tribulation" or even the "Great Tribulation" is associated with a seven-year period of time, whether 7 years or 1/2 x 7 years = 3.5 years? This has always fascinated me. There is NOTHING in Daniel 9:24-27 to suggest that the Seventieth Seven is about the JUDGMENT of God in a "Tribulation period!"

Actually, according to Gabriel, the Seventy Weeks are for the following purposes:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 

(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy."

How does one find the "Tribulation" or even the "Great Tribulation" in these purposes? (Hint: One doesn't!)

Now, there IS an association between the Seventieth Week and the Tribulation, and it's found in verses 26 and 27 and its fulfillment in Matthew 23:37-39:

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 "And [after threescore and two weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not [for himself]: and the people [of the prince that shall come] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end [thereof] shall be [with a flood], and [unto the end] [of the war] desolations are determined, 27 And he shall confirm the covenant [with many] [for one week]: and [in the midst] [of the week] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and [for the overspreading] [of abominations] he shall make it desolate, even [until the consummation], and that determined shall be poured [upon the desolate]."

All of the square brackets are marking off the prepositional phrases within these two verses, which are actually one sentence in Hebrew. Pulling out the prepositional phrases and keeing the helping verbs close to the verbs, we get...

26 "And Messiah shall be cut off, but not: and the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end shall be, and desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant: and he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and he shall make it desolate, even, and that determined shall be poured."

Now, without the prepositional phrases, about whom is verse 27 speaking? What is the antecedent for the word "he" in verse 27? It's the MESSIAH! (I can show how the Hebrew means the same thing.)

So, (1) it is the MESSIAH who "shall confirm (shall strengthen) the covenant,"
and (2) it is the MESSIAH who "shall cause the sacrifice and the olbation to cease",
and (3) it is the MESSIAH who "shall make it desolate!"

And, each one of these are fulfilled in the New Testament!

(1) Luke 1:30-33, compared to 2 Samuel 7:12-16 and 1 Chronicles 17:11-14;
(2) Hebrews 10:1-18, compared to Isaiah 53:3-11; and 
(3) Matthew 23:37-39, compared to Psalm 118:22-26.

Note: (1) is the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant; (2) is the satisfaction of the Final and Ultimate Sacrifice that is better than that of bulls and goats; and (3) is the BREAKING of the Seventieth Week in half, postponing the second half until the Messiah returns.

The GREAT "Tribulation" is BETWEEN the two halves! It IS "GREAT"; it's HUGE! It's been going on for almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS! It is "the Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7), introduced BECAUSE of their rejection of YHWH'S King for them! It is a time period simultaneous with the Gentile "Church Age," also called by Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24) which Paul said would last "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).

So, how are the "days of Tribulation" "shortened?"

Matthew 24:15-22 (KJV)

15 "When YE therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (YOU) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (YOU) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (YOU) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray YE that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

And, let's confirm this with the other two Gospels that speak of the Olivet Discourse:

Mark 13:14-20 (KJV)

14 "But when YE shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then (YOU) let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And (YOU) let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house: 16 And (YOU) let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray YE that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when YE shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then (YOU) know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then (YOU) let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and (YOU) let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and (YOU) let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

The NUMBER OF DAYS WITHIN THE TIME PERIOD are shortened; NOT the TIME PERIOD itself!