Wrath v Great Tribulation

[Retrobyter]

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Howdy @Retrobyter!

I agree, there is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 about either a 7-year or 3.5 year tribulation associated with the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week prophecy is about a period of time appointed to Israel for the very purposes you pointed out.

Well you took the first verse I was going to reference in terms of a relation to great tribulation! In verse 26 that the city and sanctuary were destroyed as desolations were determined by Yeshua when He prophesied the destruction of the city and temple at the triumphal entry.

Matthew 23:37-39
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Shalom, @Triton57, and to ANYONE who is reading along (which I encourage).

I'm REALLY starting to like and appreciate you, brother!

And, note: This highlighted line in verse 38 is the partial FULFILLMENT of Daniel 9:27! AND, Yeeshuwa` ties it together with the phrase, "Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord," which is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of this is ...

בָּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה בֵּרַכְנוּכֶם מִבֵּית יְהוָה׃

And, this is transliterated as ...

26 Baaruwkh habaa' b-sheem YHWH; beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH:

These first two words "Baaruwkh habaa'," are seen IN THEIR PLURAL forms, "Baaruwkhiym haabaa'iym," at all the airports and seaports in Israel!

This is their "WELCOME, VISITORS" sign!

This means that the Lord Yeeshuwa` was telling them that He wouldn't be back in His formal capacity until they could WELCOME HIM back! And, they must recognize that He is "habaa' b-sheem YHWH! " That is, they must recognize Him as "the-Comer in [the]-name (on the-authority) of-YHWH," our GOD, the "LORD'S ANOINTED!"

I believe that we can also conclude that THIS is the "limiting reagent" in the "equation!" THIS is what determines the end of the "time of Jacob's trouble!" But, that time, which started with this pronouncement of "DESOLATION," has been going on for nearly TWO THOUSAND YEARS!

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Luke 19:41-44
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

I think the key is the abomination of desolation in verse 27. Yeshua pointed in the Olivet Discourse specifically to Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place where it ought not.

I see the following 2 of 4 passages where Daniel speaks of an abomination of desolation to be historically pointing to that which led to the re-dedication of the temple as depicted in the Maccabees.

Right! However, NONE of the four mentions of the "desolation" in the book of Daniel are within our future. The three passages of Daniel 8:11-12, 11:11-32, and 12:11 were about Daniel's people's future and is now in the past - the "desolation" that was brought on by Antiochus IV, which the "Hammer" ("Maccabees") crushed through God's intervention!

And, the prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 have been fulfilled UP TO THE OFFER OF THE KINGDOM BY THE MESSIAH, which is recorded in all four of the Gospels. All the same, the prophecy of the WHOLE TIME is summarized by Gabriel in Daniel 9:24-27, and he noted that "in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (through His OWN Sacrifice of His body), and for the overspreading of abominations (of the scribes and Pharisees) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate!" which HE DID in Matthew 23:38!

FORTY YEARS later, recognized as a "time of testing," the DESOLATION was fully realized, when Jerusalem was surrrounded by the Roman armies and the Temple was destroyed, and razed to the ground to get at the molten gold that flowed between the foundation stones after the Temple had been set on fire, as Yeeshuwa` predicted here in Luke 19:41-44; 21;6, 20-24 and in Matthew 24:2, 15-22, as well as in Mark 13:2, 14-20! 

People have been misreading and misunderstanding Daniel 9:26-27 so long that they've built MUCH around the idea that it was the "prince that should come" who is the antecedent of the word "he" found three times in verse 27. But, that's not true.

However, in so saying, they've built up this idea of the "Antichrist" (the "prince that should come") making a 7-year peace treaty with Israel and then breaking that treaty in the middle of it (3.5 years after its signing).

That's all I'll say on it, because the whole idea is based upon the faulty thinking that the "Antichrist" is the antecedent of the pronouns "he" in verse 27 when it was actually the MESSIAH - the CHRIST - of verse 26 who is the antecedent!

So, in 30 A.D., the Messiah pronounced the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate." In 66 A.D., through another angel sent to the believing Jews of that time, the Jews were warned to flee from Jerusalem at the first sign of the abomination which derived FROM the pronouncement of "desolation," the raising of the Roman Legion Eagle in the Temple grounds. They DID flee Jerusalem at the time and regrouped  in Pella on the east side of the Jordan River, which is now the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Then, in 70 A.D., came the destruction of the Temple. This is what Yeeshuwa` was talking about in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Daniel 8:11-12
Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 11:31-32
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], an                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                d they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits]."

You already shared the preposition-free Daniel 9:27 in regards to what I view as the 2 of 4 that are yet future.

Daniel 12:1, 11
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ... And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:26-27 (prepositionally adjusted)
And Messiah shall be cut off, but not: and the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end shall be, and desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant: and he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and he shall make it desolate, even, and that determined shall be poured.

What's interesting about all of them is not just the idea of an abomination of desolation, but that each time the daily was taken away. In fact this is central to understanding the fulfillment of the 2,300 days prophecy as being ereb and boqer, not yom along with the understanding it's according to the religious lunar calendar with intercalary months. 1 Maccabees 1:10, 41-46, 54-56 and 1 Maccabees 4:52-56 give us specific times that is 2,300 daily sacrifices missed from the abomination of desolation to the re-dedication of the temple celebrated as Chanukkah. More on that here.

So the daily sacrifice (evening and morning) being taken away is tied to the abomination of desolation in all four mentions of the abomination of desolation that Yeshua pointed to Daniel for understanding on.

Now Daniel 12:1,11 explicitly ties the abomination of desolation (and daily removal) to a time of unparalleled trouble unlike any other time in history. This means it stands apart from any other similar time, because there is no similar time.

Daniel 12:1, 11
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ... And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

See, instead, I see that verse 11 is a RECAP of what Antiochus IV was going to do in 167 B.C.. which was the nearer prophecy that the people of Daniel would encounter.

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Jeremiah 30:4-7
And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Ah, but this BEGAN in 70 A.D. and has been going on ever since! THAT'S what makes this tribulation "great!" IT'S HUGE! It's also mentioned in Matthew 24:9!

Matthew 24:9-14 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The Greek of verse 9 is  ...

Κατα Ματθαιον 24:9

9 τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου.

This transliterates to ...

9 "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin, kai apoktenousin humas; kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou."

And, it translates word-for-word to ...

9 "Then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation, and they-shall-kill you; and ye-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me."

Now, I've done a study on the Olivet Discourse, taking the Greek of the three passages and harmonizing them first, and THEN translating the harmony into English. What I discovered is that the KEY to the Olivet Discourse is found in the usage of the Greek pronouns, particularly "humeis," "humoon," "humin," and "humas" which are ALL cases of the second-person plural pronoun, commonly translated as "you."

humeis = subjective "ye"
humoon = genitive "of you"
humoon = ablative "from you"
humin = locative "in you" or "at you"
humin = instrumental "with you" or "by you"
humin = dative "to you" or "for you"
humas = directly objective "you"

Also, if the endings of the verbs are "-te" or "-the" (-τε, tau-epsilon or -θε, theta-epsilon), they are the second-person, plural endings of the future tense.

When Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was talking directly to His disciples right there in front of Him, talking to them about a future THEY would have the chance to experience, He would be translated as having used "humeis/humoon/humin/humas." But, when He would peer off into the distant future, He would use "many" (translated into Greek as πολλοὶ or πολλούς or πολλῶν) or verbs that have a "third-person, plural" ending (like ὄψονται, meaning "they shall see"), instead.

We see then in verse 9, in the words "humas" (twice) and the word "esesthe," that He was speaking directly to His disciples about something they would have the chance (or misfortune) to see for themselves.

Therefore, this tribulation began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D., and it began upon their generation!

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Note the parallels between all of these to which Yeshua points to the abomination of desolation (and daily removal) about?

1) This time is for the children of Daniel's people, Israel, Judah, in Judea
2) This time is unparalleled in all of history (there can be only one)
3) This time is cut short for the sake of those going through it, Israel

Yes, this persecution or tribulation is upon the children of Daniel's people, the children of Israel, and yes, this tribulation os unparalleled in all of history because it is the LONGEST tribulation that has EVER been upon a people!

However, the time period is NOT cut short"; "those days" of the tribulation are cut short!

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV)

21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

What that means is that within the time period that is based upon the welcoming back of the Messiah, "those days" of tribulation will be curtailed into GROUPS that may then be individually named, with names like "the Spanish Inquisitions" or "the Holocaust," giving time in between to allow the people to repopulate!

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

Now Daniel 9:26-27 still has the daily being removed in addition to desolation, even though abomination is removed, which to me both seems to lay claim to one of the verses Yeshua would have been pointing to regarding what we should look for regarding the end coming.

1) If talking about the Davidic covenant, I see that as an already but not yet prophecy. His kingdom is established in heaven, but part of the prophecy, "he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever," is to come. Ezekiel 37:24-28 As the covenant is not defined that will be confirmed, I can't say it isn't possible. I do believe it cannot be the Mosaic Covenant

No, my friend. Yeeshuwa`s Kingdom is NOT "established in heaven." That is a fallacy that has been propagated on the ASSUMPTION that "sitting with the Father in His throne (or on His dais)" constitutes "reigning with Him!" However, that is neither claimed nor confirmed. 

Instead, we have statements by the Messiah Himself that says He won't be reigning UNTIL He has returned:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV) (part of the Olivet Discourse, btw)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:..."

Also, "glory," which is the Greek word "doxa," is a CONDITION, not a PLACE! It speaks of "being apparent" and may refer to "fame," as the opulence of a rich man or a king, or to "brightness," as that of the sun, the moon, or the stars. It's that which makes something or someone "stand out" as a person from the crowd or a star from the blackness of space.

Yeeshuwa` is not "the king of glory" as the "King of a PLACE"; rather, He is "the king of glory" as a "FAMOUS King!"

Also, Yeeshuwa` said,

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM, AND TO RETURN. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade with this) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, THEN HE COMMANDED these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading...."

BEING ISRAEL'S KING WAS WHAT YEESHUWA` WAS SENT TO DO!

When talking to Pilate, we read His discussion:

John 18:33-40 (KJV)

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him,

"Art thou the King of the Jews?"

34 Jesus answered him,

"Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"

35 Pilate answered,

"Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?"

36 Jesus answered,

"My kingdom is not of this world (Greek: kosmos = 'world-system'): if my kingdom were of this world ('world-system'), then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (from this [sort])."

37 Pilate therefore said unto him,

"Art thou a king then?"

Jesus answered,

"Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

38 Pilate saith unto him,

"What is truth?"

And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them,

"I find in him no fault [at all]. 39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?"

40 Then cried they all again, saying,

"Not this man, but Barabbas."

Now Barabbas was a robber.

He didn't say that His Kingdom was "off of the earth!" He was saying that it was of a "DIFFERENT CALIBER of Kingdom!"

Later we read:

John 19:1-22 (KJV)

1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged [him]. 2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put [it] on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3 And said,

"Hail, King of the Jews!"

and they smote him with their hands. 4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them,

"Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him."

5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And [Pilate] saith unto them,

"Behold the man!"

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying,

"Crucify [him], crucify [him]!"

Pilate saith unto them,

"Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him."

7 The Jews answered him,

"We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God!"

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; 9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus,

"Whence art thou?"

But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then saith Pilate unto him,

"Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?"

11 Jesus answered,

"Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying,

"If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar!"

13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews,

"Behold your King!"

15 But they cried out,

"Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him!"

Pilate saith unto them,

"Shall I crucify your King?"

The chief priests answered,

"We have no king but Caesar!"

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away. 17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was,

"JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS."

20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin. 21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate,

"Write not, 'The King of the Jews'; but that 'he said, "I am King of the Jews."' "

22 Pilate answered,

"What I have written I have written."

SO, PILATE WAS CONVINCED AND HE INDELIBLY WROTE IT!

 

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

2) It depends on if one is descriptive or spiritual whether Yeshua caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. I'm guessing you take the more spiritual side in that the insufficient sacrifices of the Mosaic Covenant were done away with in Christ's sacrifice and so even though they still performed sacrifices for the next 40 years, he caused them to cease? I'm more on the descriptive side in correlation with what I posted above about Yeshua pointing to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel being relevant to an actual event in the future.

He either satisfied the requirement for Sacrifice or He didn't! One can slaughter all the animals one wishes but from the beginning a true sacrifice to God was ONLY acceptable to God if GOD ACCEPTS THE SACRIFICE!

Genesis 4:3-7 (KJV)

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain,

"Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Read the Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 53! However, first understand what the word "soul" actually means:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew is this:

וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאָדָם עָפָר מִן־הָאֲדָמָה וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים וַיְהִי הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה׃

So, the word for "soul" here is נֶפֶשׁ transliterated as "nefesh" with the "l-" prefix for "into a"; it is the noun form of the root verb נָפַשׁ or "naafash" meaning "to breathe," and "nefesh" itself means "an [air] breathing creature."

H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nefesh), neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

So, use this info in the reading of Isaiah 53: 

Isaiah 53:5-11 (KJV)

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (His "air-breathing creature") an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 HE SHALL SEE OF THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL (HIS "AIR-BREATHING CREATURE"), [AND] SHALL BE SATISFIED: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

It doesn't matter WHAT a person may do after this! They continued to perform the rituals after the death of our Lord, the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, for the next FORTY YEARS - a TIME OF TESTING - and they REFUSED to accept Him as their Sacrifice! So, God REMOVED the Temple for further "sacrifices!" 

 

On 12/11/2024 at 1:27 AM, Triton57 said:

3) Similar to 2, the veil was rent in two symbolizing the door between God and man was done away with in Christ's sacrifice.

So I can see where you're coming from without having the prepositional phrases included to adjust the meaning from the text that is written. I suppose I just prefer to use the words that are present.

I actually think Luke 21 diverges from Matthew and Mark for the benefit of those living in 70 AD.

Luke 21:5-28
And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke's account starts out the same, meaning that when it says "but before all these," it's making a point that what comes next is prior to the timeline of Matthew and Mark. He then goes through the persecution of the early church by the Jews and Gentiles and betrayal by family and friends for His name sake, something I think will be repeated in our future.

Then they are told to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, noting this is all before the end times still. The desolation of it is near as mentioned earlier. Those who do not flee will fall by the sword and be led away into captivity into all nations. We saw this happen in 70 AD.

Finally, the closing point that returns us to the future state. Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles ever since 70 AD. Even now Jerusalem has a Christian quarter, Muslim quarter, Armenian quarter, and Jewish quarter.

I believe for other reasons there is a time coming when the great deception will see a man from the line of David come to prominence bringing Israel back to the Mosaic Covenant. The ultimate end will be the defeating of Israel's enemies, building the temple, establishing the Law in the land and changing to accommodate the appointed times as before with the daily at the temple, Yom Kippur, the whole thing. At some point he will die and resurrect and per Jeremiah 31:31-34 establish his own new covenant not needing the daily and declare himself to be their god, establishing his kingdom form the temple in Jerusalem.

All that to say, it is around this time that Jerusalem will be purged of all that is not holy in the eyes of the deceived and the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. Then the Lord will return in glory and gather His bride (fullness of the Gentiles), protect His faithful people in the wilderness, and judge the world.

In this I see the shortening of the time a little differently, that's my take anyway.

I can understand your take on this, but the Greek of the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse shows that ALL THREE accounts of the Synoptic Gospels are talking about the SAME THING! Why wouldn't Matthew and Mark talk about the part that Luke said, if they were different? Why wouldn't Luke be more explicit about the "abomination of desolation" occurring AFTER all this?

Maybe I should publish my Greek harmony of the Olivet Discourse so all can see what I saw, but THEY ARE GRAMMATICALLY THE SAME EVENTS! The "tribulation" IS (=) the "time of the Gentiles!"

The first 3.5 years of the Seventieth Week were the time of His FIRST OFFER of the Kingdom to the Jews, and the second 3.5 years HAVE BEEN DELAYED until His Second Coming when He will bring back His OFFER of the Kingdom and will once again, offer that Kingdom to His tribe, Judah! At that time, the Jews - a NEW generation - will FINALLY be ready to accept Him as the LORD'S Messiah!

[JoeCanada]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus/God made the Laws of Moses for Israel, the Church is under Grace, not any Law. God doesn't need the Law mankind did or should I say Israel did, it was used to teach them why they were not doing God's full will basically. 

As per the design by God of the 7 Feast Cycles, I buy that because I can see Jesus has already fulfilled the Spring Feasts, we are now in the Summer Harvest saving and harvesting souls for God and Jesus is the head & we are the body. The Fall Feast comes  in the Feast of Trumps BEFORE Israel repents or atones (Feast of Atonement) and thus Israel must repent before God's Wrath falls. 

You have just contradicted yourself with the above two statements.

First you state that God made the Laws of Moses irrelevant for mankind today ... in reference to God's sowing and harvesting laws ... which are not in the laws of Moses

Then you state that the 7 feast cycles are relevant and that the summer harvesting  of souls is still God's sowing and harvesting laws.

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

If a person looks at Rev 12: ...

"And there was war in heaven ... and the great dragon was thrown down to the earth...

"Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing  that he has only a short time"

It says that Satan has great wrath. 

It is Satan who persecutes the woman......  in his great wrath.

It is Satan, who in his great wrath, persecutes and makes war with the saints and overcomes them.

When God's wrath begins, Satan's wrath will be greatly diminished. Satan's  wrath consists of torture, terror, beheadings, persecution, rape, pillaging.... and the like.

God's Wrath consists of supernatural plagues ...

It begins with fire and brimstone ... "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" ...  2 Pet 3:17

And ends with the greatest earthquake ever, flattening all the high places, the mountains were not found, and the islands fled away ...  and the greatest hailstorm ever, with 100 pound hailstones pulverizing whatever remains.... Rev 16:17

Isaiah tells us that ....  GOD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED IN THAT DAY ...

It is HIS day,  The DAY OF THE LORD ... God will not share it with a creature 

"Step aside worm .... it is  MY DAY ... I ALONE WILL BE GLORIFIED"

Isa 2:11 ... "The proud look of man will be abased
And the loftiness of man will be humbled,
And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day."

Isa 2:17 ... "The pride of man will be humbled
And the loftiness of men will be abased;
And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day"

Isa 5:16... "But the LORD of hosts will be exalted in judgment,
And the holy God will show Himself holy in righteousness."

 

You are looking at this all wrong. Like an either or, Satan is trying to kill the 1/3 who repented and fled via the AC Army, but he can't get at them, because God Himself is protecting them, that is God getting GLORY from the whole world, AND those who have the Mark of the Beast are in caves hiding, but why? Because they are scared of God, yes Satan has great wrath and urgency, but he's always sought to Kill, Steal and Destroy. That just God's way of letting us know Satan rule over earth will be coming to an end soon and he's of course very angry about that. You like others seem to think just because Satan has anger and is putting forth troubles (as e always does) that God' Wrath can not come atm.

I will give you the play by play of how it goes down.

In Rev. 6 God's Wrath is very close, so he started opening up the bound Trumpet Judgments and FORETELLING what will soon come via the 4 Covering Beasts/Angels saying "COME AND SEE". In Rev. 7 however, just before the 7th Seal UNLEASGES God's Wrath in Rev. 8, we see God getting the Jews (144,000 code or 1/3 ratio as seen in Zech. 13:8-9 = 5 million Jews both male & female) to repent before He brings His Wrath to earth, thus He says HOLD UP, the Four Winds (Judgments) until we SEAL UP (get the Jews to repent and be covered by Jesus' blood) these "144,000" then we get a flash up to heaven to see the Pre Trib. Raptured Church in Rev. 7:9-16, THEN God's Wrath falls as the 7th Seal unleashes the 7th Seal on the Scroll of Judgment Trumps. 

God's Wrath now falls in Rev. 8 via ONE ASTEROID EVENT that wipes out much of the New Worlds but more so the USA and North America, this ALLOWS the AC to be the new BIG DOG, that is why he waits to go forth conquering, the Gog & Magog war has wiped out 5/6 of Russia, Iran and Turkey's Armies, China is pretty much indifferent about Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, but the USA wants to be TOP DOG all over the world, the Asteroid changes al that. Now the E.U. Anti-Christ can go forth conquering Israel who will have joined the E.U. 3.5 years before this DOTL Asteroid Event. Israel joining the E.U. is the Covenant/AGREEMENT they enter into that kicks of the 70th week and the Pre Trib. Rapture.

So, the FIRES COME FIRST in Trump #1, these Burning Sulfur balls drop, that's what burnt up Sodom, as the asteroid tries to come apart because of our atmospheric condition. The 1/3 that burns I am convince is the New World, the Pacific Ocean covers 1/3 of the earths surface also. So, we will be burning. Then the Asteroid IMPACT hits causing Tsunamis and earthquakes no doubt via Trump #2 . The FALLOUT is Trump #3, it poisons the 1/3 or New Worlds Fresh Waters. Then Trump #4 is the Fire & Smoke creating so much SMOG/Smoke that the sun seems to dim by 1/3, and the moon turns Blood Red because of all the fires on earth casting  Red Hue upon it.

Basically, NONE OF THIS AFFECTS the E.U. and his Kingdom, whilst all this is going on the AC is Conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, and NOTHING ELSE. Thus he becomes The Beast and starts mandating Beast Worship and making people take the Mark of the Beast. I think that portion is Rev. 9 the First Woe, notice they can not kill, but hurt and maim, I think this is the Beasts (he's the Beast by now) and his Demons being given 5 months by God to put pressure on those who have NO CHOSEN YET...........as in Stand yea this day on whose side ye choose, the Lord or with those who are worshiping the Calf stature. God allows Satan to try them, to put pressure on them so them make their choice, those who chose the Mark of the Best thus are God's Angels (200 million ) targets starting in Woe #2. So, yes God's Wrath is falling, mostly in the New World after the Rapture, but He allows the Beasts Kingdom to prosper for a time and a season. Only in Woe #2 does God start killing of the Beasts followers. Then at the 7th Trump, 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials in full, we see it gets worse and worse on those who took the Mark of the Beast until Vial #6 which I say is God DRYING UP His plagues long enough to get Satan, the A.C. Beast and the False Prophet to lie to their followers who are in hiding, to go forth unto Jerusalem i order to try to kill off all of the Jews. Then in Vial #7 Jesus shows up to wipe out these evil earth dwellers. 

So, it all comes down to this, Satan has wrath 24/7/365, but God's wrath will only cover 1260 days and Satan  and his Beast will cover for more

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

You are looking at this all wrong. Like an either or, Satan is trying to kill the 1/3 who repented and fled via the AC Army, but he can't get at them, because God Himself is protecting them, that is God getting GLORY from the whole world

God is getting glory from the whole world because He is protecting the Jews who are hiding in the hills?

You are joking right?

This is the same world that is currently anti-Semitic, except for a few countries. And they are all going to change course and start cheering for the Jews and the "God" who is protecting them? This is the God who they don't believe in? 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Basically, NONE OF THIS AFFECTS the E.U. and his Kingdom, whilst all this is going on the AC is Conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, and NOTHING ELSE

Seriously?

The whole Mediterranean Sea region?

But none of this will affect the EU?

I think maybe your meds are in need of adjustment.

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

So, it all comes down to this, Satan has wrath 24/7/365, but God's wrath will only cover 1260 days and Satan  and his Beast will cover for more

This is the type of mumbo-jumbo word salad that Kamala would say.

I think you should write a book, a fictional novel on "How the last days look according to Revman."

Love to you bro ... 

[Revelation Man]

On 12/16/2024 at 8:38 AM, JoeCanada said:

You have just contradicted yourself with the above two statements.

First you state that God made the Laws of Moses irrelevant for mankind today ... in reference to God's sowing and harvesting laws ... which are not in the laws of Moses

Then you state that the 7 feast cycles are relevant and that the summer harvesting  of souls is still God's sowing and harvesting laws.

It's not contradictory, your comprehension skills are lacking a wee bit or your blind-spot places a weight on he balance scale of your ability to see these things clearly.

God's Prophesies of old are still His word telling us what is going to happen. God gave us a History of World Events, as they are assoc. with Israel via the 7 Feasts. Remember, the Lunar Moon Cycle is not Israel time per se, but its God Time instead.

So, God had them practicing EVENTS TO COME, to one day glorify his name, once the 70th week starts, people can look at other peoples work, mine on many sites, Quora where I get 1000 views a month, and see all these Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus just as the Feasts foretold they would be, even though Israel did not understand what they were practicing, they were Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals) and Jesus has to fulfill all 7 of them. These are not Laws but God revealing Prophesies. If any Jew comes to Christ today, they are made whole by the blood, not by the law.

At the same time we can look at Prophesies from any point in time and see them fulfilled without STILL OBSERVING the Laws of Moses. 

Edited December 18 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

God is getting glory from the whole world because He is protecting the Jews who are hiding in the hills?

You are joking right?

Yes, he is SUPERNATURALY PROTECTING Israel, and I can show you 10-12 places where this is FORETOLD, 2000-3000 years ago in various places. Most of mankind will all hate the Jews, they will be trying to wipe them out, but then all the Armies will not be able to get at them, that is what I call fulfilling Prophesy and many people will see that, hear the Angels preaching (they take this over because the Church is in Heaven pre 7oth week) and will understand, WOW God foretold all this 1000's of years ago, let me give my life to Christ and die for the Master if need be that I might have life eternal.

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This is the same world that is currently anti-Semitic, except for a few countries. And they are all going to change course and start cheering for the Jews and the "God" who is protecting them? This is the God who they don't believe in? 

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I never said that, you just do not understand how to decipher the English language via its biblical points it seems. God can GAIN GLORY by His WORD COMING TRUE, do you not understand that? If God destroyed the WHOLE WORLD and not one soul was saved God GAINS GLORY because His word was fast and true.  The word Glory via God implies someone worthy of the Godhead, it means He always KEEPS His word, it means He NEVER LIES etc. etc. 

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Seriously?

The whole Mediterranean Sea region?

But none of this will affect the EU?

I think maybe your meds are in need of adjustment.

Read Dan. 11:40-43, its tells you all the nations he defeats. He GOES through Countries to get at Israel, so Turkey (which Dan. 8:9 confirms) Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, then  he conquers the Pleasant Land (Israel) and then Egypt/Libya, which was all of North Africa at the time. So, the E.U. which covers from England to Greece will conquer EAST & SOUTH which is what Dan. 8:9 also says, and then he will hear troubles out of the East and North, or China and Russia (who still have nukes......of course).

I will leave the child like name calling to you. Anytime I see that I know the man can't compete and is just trying to run from the facts. Run on, run on. 

 

Edited December 17 by Revelation Man

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @JoeCanada and @Revelation Man.

Please remember not to attack the person, only address the problem. Work TOGETHER to find a solution. Cooperation, not competition. Thanks.

[JoeCanada]

24 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @JoeCanada and @Revelation Man.

Please remember not to attack the person, only address the problem. Work TOGETHER to find a solution. Cooperation, not competition. Thanks.

My apologies to Revman 

[Retrobyter]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:46 PM, Revelation Man said:

Yes, he is SUPERNATURALY PROTECTING Israel, and I can show you 10-12 places where this is FORETOLD, 2000-3000 years ago in various places. Most of mankind will all hate the Jews, they will be trying to wipe them out, but then all the Armies will not be able to get at them, that is what I call fulfilling Prophesy and many people will see that, hear the Angels preaching (they take this over because the Church is in Heaven pre 7oth week) and will understand, WOW God foretold all this 1000's of years ago, let me give my life to Christ and die for the Master if need be that I might have life eternal.

Shalom, @Revelation Man.

Brother, we have life eternal the moment that God JUSTIFIES us because of His Son's Sacrifice! "When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin..." (Isa. 53:10). We can't be righteous enough; God must step in and DECLARE us "His righteousness" found within His Son, who was declared "our sin!"

On 12/16/2024 at 7:46 PM, Revelation Man said:

I never said that, you just do not understand how to decipher the English language via its biblical points it seems. God can GAIN GLORY by His WORD COMING TRUE, do you not understand that? If God destroyed the WHOLE WORLD and not one soul was saved God GAINS GLORY because His word was fast and true.  The word Glory via God implies someone worthy of the Godhead, it means He always KEEPS His word, it means He NEVER LIES etc. etc. 

If God destroyed the WHOLE WORLD and not one soul was saved, who could appreciate His glory? Glory means FAME! How can He be famous without anyone to appreciate Him? The word "doxa" in Greek (translated as "glory") means to make someone or something apparent; to make him or it stand out from the background! For a rich man or a king, that might mean his opulence; for an object, it means to "GLOW," like a bright star against the black background of space! And, "glory" NEVER refers to a place! It's a CONDITION! For Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus"), it means to "GLOW" as is seen on the Mount of Transfiguration and in Revelation 1!

Consider: 

G1391 δόξα dóxa, dox'-ah; from the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):
—dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

The word is used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV)

40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

We would use the word "brightness" today.

On 12/16/2024 at 7:46 PM, Revelation Man said:

Read Dan. 11:40-43, its tells you all the nations he defeats. He GOES through Countries to get at Israel, so Turkey (which Dan. 8:9 confirms) Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, then  he conquers the Pleasant Land (Israel) and then Egypt/Libya, which was all of North Africa at the time. So, the E.U. which covers from England to Greece will conquer EAST & SOUTH which is what Dan. 8:9 also says, and then he will hear troubles out of the East and North, or China and Russia (who still have nukes......of course).

I will leave the child like name calling to you. Anytime I see that I know the man can't compete and is just trying to run from the facts. Run on, run on. 

 

Daniel 11 is OVER! All of that chapter was PRE-Christ! It was B.C!

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Brother, we have life eternal the moment that God JUSTIFIES us because of His Son's Sacrifice! "When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin..." (Isa. 53:10). We can't be righteous enough; God must step in and DECLARE us "His righteousness" found within His Son, who was declared "our sin!"

This is true, and why I was pointing out unto him that we do not need to keep the Law of Moses anymore, however there may (are) be so deeper truths found in those laws regarding prophesies, for instance God did not just give Israel 490 years of penance (70 x 7) He gave them that because of Laws given in Leviticus, if you are given a judgment (70 years in Babylon) and do not repent, it will then be TIMED (x) by 7. So, hence the 70 x 7 or 490 year, so the Law is no longed needed, we are in Grace, but we can still find nuggets of truths at how God's perfect law was used for Israel, and therefore why no man can be Justified under the Law, it must be by faith alone.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

If God destroyed the WHOLE WORLD and not one soul was saved, who could appreciate His glory?

God's Glory is not contingent upon mankind, He had his glory before we were ever created right? 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Glory means FAME

Not with God, remember God has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, meaning as a Spirit, he has the Abundance of the Virtue, of Peace, Joy, Love, Hope, Kindness et al. God's Glory is His virtues. 

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Daniel 11 is OVER! All of that chapter was PRE-Christ! It was B.C!

No, verses 36-45 are the Anti-Christ.