Wrath v Great Tribulation

[The Light]

9 minutes ago, douggg said:

@The Light

 

What starts the great tribulation ?

The abomination of desolation, the AoD, set up, right ?

When is the abomination of desolation destroyed to end the great tribulation ?

 

Take a look at my graphic...

 

 

 

 

Your graphic show what happens at the end of the 7th seal. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

[douggg]

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

Your graphic show what happens at the end of the 7th seal. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

My graphic shows the abomination of desolation destroyed at Jesus's return, to end the great tribulation.

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, douggg said:

The great tribulation is not over until the beast, the false prophet, and Satan have been dwelt with.

I think I see where the problem lies.

The 70th week of Daniel has been misconstrued by many and they have called it the Great Tribulation.

It is not.

You are correct when you say that the beast, false prophet and Satan have to be dealt with .... but they are not dealt with during the GT.

The GT is going to be an unprecedented time of persecution and testing against the Jews and the church. Satan is cast out of heaven having great wrath and goes after Christians and Jews. Most of the earth dwellers will not really be aware of what's going on, because this persecution does not affect them. Sure, there will be wars and famines and earthquakes in various places but the world is sort of used to that.

Most will take the mark of the beast so that they can eat and have a roof over their heads and feel secure. 

It is after the sixth seal is opened that the resurrection and rapture occurs.

That ends the GT.

Now ..... now comes the last of the time of the 70th week.

It is the time of God's wrath against the Kingdom of Satan et al. Scripture says that God alone will be exalted in this day.

So, I see the 70th week as being split up like this.

It begins with birth pangs, the first 4 seals ..... then great tribulation, the 5th and 6th seal .... then the wrath of God, beginning with the trumpet judgments and ending with the bowl judgments. 

It is not all tribulation. The tribulation is cut short for believers by God by resurrecting and rapturing His followers.  

[WilliamL]

On 11/9/2024 at 8:31 AM, Diaste said:

... And as Jesus says, this is after the A of D[midpoint of the week] and after the tribulation of those days; which is after the A of D. 

Therefore, God's wrath does not begin at the onset of the 70th week, but only sometime after the midpoint of the week.

Great argument, until the last sentence, which is a total non sequitur. Neither Jesus nor the Book of the Revelation even hint about any 70th/7-year week in the End Times.

[angels4u]

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 Neither Jesus nor the Book of the Revelation even hint about any 70th/7-year week in the End Times.

Sometimes it's best to use even improper or ill defined terms when debating against the one who poorly defined the terms and ideas, for clarity. I don't want to give them an out so I use their terms. 

Though I can make a case for that nonexistent hint you're talking about. :)

 

[Triton57]

On 11/9/2024 at 8:27 AM, The Light said:

Exactly. Wrath will begin after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the day of the Lord.........the wrath of God.

The trumpets of wrath and the vials of wrath occur in the same time frame.......the 7th seal.

 

This is what I found in my study of scripture. More generally, the day of the Lord is the beginning of God's wrath and the sixth seal comes before it, as you've said.

 

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

Isaiah 13:9-11

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

Isaiah 2:12, 19-21

For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ... And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Then, Revelation 7 speaks to the multitude in heaven before the throne that was before in Revelation 4:6 just a sea of crystal, now contains multitudes. It also speaks to the sealing of the 144,000, which I think demonstrates from Revelation 12:14-17 that faithful Israel who is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble when it's cut short is saved at the same time as the bride is caught up, a Yeshua's return.

 

What I don't often see pointed out in terms of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are several clear passages that clearly separate them from each other and indicate God's wrath. Firstly, it is at the sixth seal that even the ones who reject Yeshua have the idea planted that the wrath of God has come when the sixth seal happens. Do they really know this? I don't know, but they are clearly afraid and hiding in fear and scripture states they recognize it. Now I know some hold that only the bowls are God's wrath, but I think Revelation 6 and 7 speak to something different.

 

Revelation 7:1-3

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Revelation 9:1-4

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

The first thing we can see is that the 144,000 remain on the earth, where the judgements are carried out. This is why they need to hold back the hurting of the earth, sea, and trees until the 144,000 were sealed, because this is their protection from the result of the fifth trumpet. It would seem to me that the holding back of the continuation on to the seventh and final seal being broken would indicate the sealing of protection for those 144,000 remaining on the earth is tied to protection from the judgement coming and therefore the trumpets are tied to God's wrath just as the people of earth realized at the sixth seal.

 

Revelation 8:1-2

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

Regarding whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen at the same time or are sequential, I think it's important to point out that it was not until the seventh seal is broken that the seven angels are even given their trumpets. Therefore it does not seem logical to tie the first seal with the first trumpet and first bowl etc. as some do. Rather scripture creates a dividing line that the seals are not God's wrath and are separate from the trumpets and bowls, which are God's wrath and the result of opening the scroll that would seem to have those judgements.

 

Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

The final three trumpets are the 3 woes, which distinguishes them somewhat from any other seals or bowls with the exception of the idea that the seventh angel blowing the trumpet lasts for days plural. I think this must last for more than just a few days because the armies that gather to fight Yeshua when He returns aren't able to be gathered until the 6th bowl when the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the gathering to Armageddon. I imagine it will take some time for this massive army to travel there. Since the mystery of God will be finished in the days of the seventh trumpet, I think it must be sounding throughout the duration of the seven bowls.

 

Revelation 15:1, 5-8

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

As seen from the seals to trumpets, we see a distinction from the trumpets to the bowls when one of the four beasts gives the bowls full of the wrath of God, the filling up or completion of it, to the seven angels that will pour them out. This is after the seventh trumpet began to sound, which was six trumpets after the seventh seal was broken.

 

So I think there is a distinct sequence through 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and while the 7th trumpet sounds over a period of time, the bowls are all poured out. The sixth bowl must take a decent amount of time because it's the prerequisite for large scale armies traveling across the Euphrates to Jerusalem to be defeated by Yeshua at His return.

 

Furthermore, it seems clear to me that the trumpets are indeed the start of the wrath of God as their destruction is evident throughout and because the seven bowls fill up the wrath of God, indicating there was an aspect of God's wrath before them. This is in agreement with the people of earth recognizing God's wrath had arrived at the sixth seal.

 

My personal perspective is that the first seal is the start of the 70th week and goes through to the fifth seal that is Jacob's trouble, the sixth seal cuts that time short with Yeshua's arrival and catching away of the bride around Yom Teruah, and rescuing of Israel through the days of awe leading to the day of the Lord and the first trumpet on Yom Kippur. Meanwhile Israel is protected in the wilderness during Sukkot and throughout the rest of the week as God judges the world until His return to establish His Messianic Kingdom.

[JoeCanada]

7 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

This is what I found in my study of scripture. More generally, the day of the Lord is the beginning of God's wrath and the sixth seal comes before it, as you've said.

 

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

Isaiah 13:9-11

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

Isaiah 2:12, 19-21

For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ... And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

 

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Then, Revelation 7 speaks to the multitude in heaven before the throne that was before in Revelation 4:6 just a sea of crystal, now contains multitudes. It also speaks to the sealing of the 144,000, which I think demonstrates from Revelation 12:14-17 that faithful Israel who is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble when it's cut short is saved at the same time as the bride is caught up, a Yeshua's return.

 

What I don't often see pointed out in terms of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are several clear passages that clearly separate them from each other and indicate God's wrath. Firstly, it is at the sixth seal that even the ones who reject Yeshua have the idea planted that the wrath of God has come when the sixth seal happens. Do they really know this? I don't know, but they are clearly afraid and hiding in fear and scripture states they recognize it. Now I know some hold that only the bowls are God's wrath, but I think Revelation 6 and 7 speak to something different.

 

Revelation 7:1-3

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Revelation 9:1-4

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

The first thing we can see is that the 144,000 remain on the earth, where the judgements are carried out. This is why they need to hold back the hurting of the earth, sea, and trees until the 144,000 were sealed, because this is their protection from the result of the fifth trumpet. It would seem to me that the holding back of the continuation on to the seventh and final seal being broken would indicate the sealing of protection for those 144,000 remaining on the earth is tied to protection from the judgement coming and therefore the trumpets are tied to God's wrath just as the people of earth realized at the sixth seal.

 

Revelation 8:1-2

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

Regarding whether the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen at the same time or are sequential, I think it's important to point out that it was not until the seventh seal is broken that the seven angels are even given their trumpets. Therefore it does not seem logical to tie the first seal with the first trumpet and first bowl etc. as some do. Rather scripture creates a dividing line that the seals are not God's wrath and are separate from the trumpets and bowls, which are God's wrath and the result of opening the scroll that would seem to have those judgements.

 

Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

The final three trumpets are the 3 woes, which distinguishes them somewhat from any other seals or bowls with the exception of the idea that the seventh angel blowing the trumpet lasts for days plural. I think this must last for more than just a few days because the armies that gather to fight Yeshua when He returns aren't able to be gathered until the 6th bowl when the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the gathering to Armageddon. I imagine it will take some time for this massive army to travel there. Since the mystery of God will be finished in the days of the seventh trumpet, I think it must be sounding throughout the duration of the seven bowls.

 

Revelation 15:1, 5-8

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

As seen from the seals to trumpets, we see a distinction from the trumpets to the bowls when one of the four beasts gives the bowls full of the wrath of God, the filling up or completion of it, to the seven angels that will pour them out. This is after the seventh trumpet began to sound, which was six trumpets after the seventh seal was broken.

 

So I think there is a distinct sequence through 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and while the 7th trumpet sounds over a period of time, the bowls are all poured out. The sixth bowl must take a decent amount of time because it's the prerequisite for large scale armies traveling across the Euphrates to Jerusalem to be defeated by Yeshua at His return.

 

Furthermore, it seems clear to me that the trumpets are indeed the start of the wrath of God as their destruction is evident throughout and because the seven bowls fill up the wrath of God, indicating there was an aspect of God's wrath before them. This is in agreement with the people of earth recognizing God's wrath had arrived at the sixth seal.

 

My personal perspective is that the first seal is the start of the 70th week and goes through to the fifth seal that is Jacob's trouble, the sixth seal cuts that time short with Yeshua's arrival and catching away of the bride around Yom Teruah, and rescuing of Israel through the days of awe leading to the day of the Lord and the first trumpet on Yom Kippur. Meanwhile Israel is protected in the wilderness during Sukkot and throughout the rest of the week as God judges the world until His return to establish His Messianic Kingdom.

Hi Triton57,

Excellent!

I'm in total agreement.

Jesus tells us that His coming will be just like the days of Noah ... people will be eating and drinking (partying) marrying and giving in marriage, building, planting crops, they'll be buying and selling ... there will be two men in the field, one will be taken and one will be left ... two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and one will be left ...

And, when Jesus comes .....  the earth dwellers, those unrepentant evil doers won't know until sudden destruction overtakes them. That's why they run and hide in the clefts and holes. 

If a person looks at the impact that the trumpets have on the earth, their destructive forces, how can people live normal lives? How can people be unaware like Scripture tells us they will be. 

Only the faithful will be ready. Their lamps will be full of oil. They will be looking up awaiting their Savior.

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

It also speaks to the sealing of the 144,000, which I think demonstrates from Revelation 12:14-17 that faithful Israel who is saved out of the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble when it's cut short is saved at the same time as the bride is caught up, a Yeshua's return.

 

 

 

This may be confusing at this point. The 144,000 are first fruits of the seed of the woman, Israel. They are the 12 tribes across the earth. When the dragon can't get to the woman, those that fled to a place of protection, he goes after the Jews around the world. 

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Another thing to note is that there are two brides. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the Chosen Bride Rachel.

I am having trouble getting it to quote different breaks in your post. I am going to have to separate them into single posts. Sorry about that. I don't know why. Only seems to happen when a color is changed, like you using red, but that's not always the case. Could be the browser?

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Triton57 said:

 

 

What I don't often see pointed out in terms of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are several clear passages that clearly separate them from each other and indicate God's wrath. Firstly, it is at the sixth seal that even the ones who reject Yeshua have the idea planted that the wrath of God has come when the sixth seal happens. Do they really know this? I don't know, but they are clearly afraid and hiding in fear and scripture states they recognize it. Now I know some hold that only the bowls are God's wrath, but I think Revelation 6 and 7 speak to something different.

 

 

Yes, they really know the wrath of God is coming because if you look at the scriptures below you should see that the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur when Jesus comes in Matthew 24. From the two scriptures below, we can make some logical conclusions.

1. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. (the second coming. But He remains in the clouds and sends the angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth) It is a harvest.

2. When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 the tribulation is over. That tells us the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

3. The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

4. The second coming at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation is not when Jesus sets up His kingdom when He comes to earth. When He comes to earth after the wrath of God, the 7th seal.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The harvest at the 6th seal is shown here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Edited December 7, 2024 by The Light