Mature Universe Theory

[Sparks]

1 hour ago, tim_from_pa said:

I did not bother answering ...

That's all you had to say; that I am not worth the time required for you to answer.  God bless.

[The Barbarian]

On 10/27/2024 at 7:47 AM, RV_Wizard said:

He could not have abandoned the gnostic doctrines without first being a gnostic, now could he. 

Paul could not have abandoned persecution of Christians if he hadn't first been a persecutor.    But to say "Saul was a persecutor of Christians" would be deceptive use of part of the truth.

 

[BeyondET]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Huh?  There is no evidence that God spreads out pieces and then puts them together like a zigsaw puzzle.  In fact, Psa 33:65 and 9 say that God creates by speaking things into existence, out of nothing.  That is what Gen 1:1 is about;  God spoke "the heavens and earth" into existence.  No evidence that He spoke pieces into existence and then spent time putting them all together.

Just read through what God did during the restoration in Genesis 1.  

v.3 - And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

The Hebrew is clear:  And God said, "light, BE!"  and light WAS.  That is how God creates.

The earth isn't a tinkertoy, or building, or Lincoln logs, to be assembled.  Nor is the universe.  God spoke everything into existence.  

You're just trying to 'splain the Septuagint and ignore the obvious conclusions.

Fact:  both Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe the total destruction of the land.  When land is totally destroyed so that it becomes uninhabitable, don't you think the land would also be unsightly?  Of course it would.

Trying to explain away verses and words that are inconvenient to one's viewpoint is not the way to read Scripture.  Take it for what it says.  Not what one thinks it SHOULD say.

The earth isn't a tinkertoy to zap into exist and destroy it like a two year old either. Nothing doesn't happen unless God allows it, would you agree?.

Again unsightly is in the eyes of the beholder 

Your analogy is no different take it for what it says and not add something that's not there.

Speaking something into existence doesn't mean it has to be instantaneous. Your trying to squeeze an idea of zapperism.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said:

Huh?  There is no evidence that God spreads out pieces and then puts them together like a zigsaw puzzle.  In fact, Psa 33:65 and 9 say that God creates by speaking things into existence, out of nothing.  That is what Gen 1:1 is about;  God spoke "the heavens and earth" into existence.  No evidence that He spoke pieces into existence and then spent time putting them all together.

The earth isn't a tinkertoy to zap into exist and destroy it like a two year old either.

When did I any other person ever say that God destroyed His own creation????  Why do you make such outlandish guesses??  That is absurd.

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Nothing doesn't happen unless God allows it, would you agree?

Actually, nothing happens unless God allows it.  

It is axiomatic that "nothing doesn't happen".  

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Again unsightly is in the eyes of the beholder

This is just more punting.  Jeremiah was warning of and describing the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land, and he quoted from Gen 1:2.  This isn't rocket science.  It's patently obvious WHY Jeremiah quoted what Moses wrote.

ps:  Jeremiah didn't see what happened to earth.  Neither did Moses.  But both were inspired by the Holy Spirit.  So your defense fails.

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Your analogy is no different take it for what it says and not add something that's not there.

Actually, that is what I have been doing.  Understanding what Moses was describing by knowing how both Jeremiah and Isaiah used the words in their description of the coming of TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  And that is exactly what Moses was saying about what happened to the earth in v.2.

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Speaking something into existence doesn't mean it has to be instantaneous. Your trying to squeeze an idea of zapperism.

No, I'm not.  I'm listening to what the Hebrew literally says.

So, once again:  v.3  "God said, "Light BE", and "light WAS".  You may call that what you want.  Doesn't change a thing.  When God calls for light, you really think there's going to be a delay in response??  No.  When God commands things into existence, they appear immediately. 

It is folly to assume anything other than an immediate appearance.

Or, prove that delays are possible from Scripture.  That is my only source.

I don't accept opinions, presumptions or assumptions.  Just facts.  From the Bible.

Can you list what 'damage' is done to the Bible if v.2 does say that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland?  I'd like to know.  I can't think of any.  Thanks.

[BeyondET]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When did I any other person ever say that God destroyed His own creation????  Why do you make such outlandish guesses??  That is absurd.

Actually, nothing happens unless God allows it.  

It is axiomatic that "nothing doesn't happen".  

This is just more punting.  Jeremiah was warning of and describing the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land, and he quoted from Gen 1:2.  This isn't rocket science.  It's patently obvious WHY Jeremiah quoted what Moses wrote.

ps:  Jeremiah didn't see what happened to earth.  Neither did Moses.  But both were inspired by the Holy Spirit.  So your defense fails.

Actually, that is what I have been doing.  Understanding what Moses was describing by knowing how both Jeremiah and Isaiah used the words in their description of the coming of TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  And that is exactly what Moses was saying about what happened to the earth in v.2.

No, I'm not.  I'm listening to what the Hebrew literally says.

So, once again:  v.3  "God said, "Light BE", and "light WAS".  You may call that what you want.  Doesn't change a thing.  When God calls for light, you really think there's going to be a delay in response??  No.  When God commands things into existence, they appear immediately. 

It is folly to assume anything other than an immediate appearance.

Or, prove that delays are possible from Scripture.  That is my only source.

I don't accept opinions, presumptions or assumptions.  Just facts.  From the Bible.

Can you list what 'damage' is done to the Bible if v.2 does say that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland?  I'd like to know.  I can't think of any.  Thanks.

Actually God creates things destroyed looking unsightly like a dead leaf mantis. There's no difference in something that resembles death or destruction on any scale in the universe.

Edited October 28, 2024 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

42 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When God calls for light, you really think there's going to be a delay in response??  No.  When God commands things into existence, they appear immediately. 

God can certainly delay.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Or, prove that delays are possible from Scripture.  That is my only source.

I don't accept opinions, presumptions or assumptions.  Just facts.  From the Bible.

Can you list what 'damage' is done to the Bible if v.2 does say that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland?  I'd like to know.  I can't think of any.  Thanks.

God's creations is a source like radiation is an example of delay. As unstable Atoms decay, they shed excess energy in a slow process to achieve stability. It is only then, the transformation from unstable to stable can create new elements for a planet.

Edited October 29, 2024 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Actually God creates things destroyed looking unsightly like a dead leaf mantis. There's no difference in something that resembles death or destruction on any scale in the universe.

 

This is a rather desperate attempt to defend what is indefensible.  I question your view of how God creates.  This "dead leaf mantis" isn't even close to being relevant to God creating the earth looking unsightly, as the Septuagint records.  

Rather, since "tohu wabohu" is used to describe TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land in the only 2 other occurrences in the OT, it should be obvious that it means the same thing in Gen 1:2.  Which is why Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2.  He knew what Moses was describing and it FIT PERFECTLY in the context of Jer 4.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

FreeGrace said:

When God calls for light, you really think there's going to be a delay in response??  No.  When God commands things into existence, they appear immediately. 

God can certainly delay.

That would be your opinion.  There are no facts to support your opinion.  Especially not Psa 33:6,9.

God speaks, and poof!!  Things appear.  

You're adding to what the Bible doesn't say.  That is a form of eisegesis.  If you have evidence for God commanding something to appear, and there is a delay, please share.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, BeyondET said:

God's creations is a source like radiation is an example of delay. As unstable Atoms decay, they shed excess energy in a slow process to achieve stability. It is only then, the transformation from unstable to stable can create new elements for a planet.

Again, your example is irrelevant.  "as unstable atoms decay" indicates the passage of time, NOT creation.  

Wouldn't it be much easier to just accept the meaning of "tohu wabohu" as used by Jeremiah and Isaiah than keep trying to come up with these irrelevant examples to defend what is indefensible?

Also, I asked what is damaged in Scripture by understanding that after the earth was created it became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu)?  

iow, what is keeping you from accepting the obvious?  It seems you're trying real hard to defend a creation described by "tohu wabohu" which is indefensible, given how the words are used in Jeremiah and Isaiah.