Theistic Evolution

[The Barbarian]

Unusual pectoral apparatus in a predatory dinosaur resolves avian wishbone homology

Abstract

The furcula is a distinctive element of the pectoral skeleton in birds, which strengthens the shoulder region to withstand the rigor of flight. Although its origin among theropod dinosaurs is now well-supported, the homology of the furcula relative to the elements of the tetrapod pectoral girdle (i.e., interclavicle vs clavicles) remains controversial. Here, we report the identification of the furcula in the birdlike theropod Halszkaraptor escuilliei. The bone is unique among furculae in non-avian dinosaurs in bearing a visceral articular facet in the hypocleideal end firmly joined to and overlapped by the sternal plates, a topographical pattern that supports the primary homology of the furcula with the interclavicle. The transformation of the interclavicle into the furcula in early theropods is correlated to the loss of the clavicles, and reinforced the interconnection between the contralateral scapulocoracoids, while relaxing the bridge between the scapulocoracoids with the sternum. The function of the forelimbs in theropod ancestors shifted from being a component of the locomotory quadrupedal module to an independent module specialized to grasping. The later evolution of novel locomotory modules among maniraptoran theropods, involving the forelimbs, drove the re-acquisition of a tighter connection between the scapulocoracoids and the interclavicle with the sternal complex.

It's not just that we see all  these homologies where they need to be if the evolution of birds is a fact; it's that we never see homologies where they shouldn't be.

No feathers in lizards.    No complex shell microstructure in crocodiles.    No "avian" respiratory system in turtles.    Only where it would be if birds evolved from other theropods.

It's time to accept the evidence as it is.

 

[Sparks]

1 minute ago, The Barbarian said:

It's time to accept the evidence as it is.

This is not direct evidence.  Learn.

[The Barbarian]

3 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You have direct evidence.

Yes, as knowledgeable YE creationists admit.    It's just a fact.   Many facts, actually.

4 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You know, I think you don't understand evidence, at all. 

If you 'd bother to learn something about epistemology, you'd know why your fellow YE creationists admit that it is evidence.

Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected  macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory.

YE cretionist Dr. Kurt Wise

[Sparks]

11 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes, as knowledgeable YE creationists admit.    It's just a fact.   Many facts, actually.

What is your direct evidence?  Not your guess?  You would need a time machine to travel back to witness the first bird hatched, or that birds come from dinosaurs.  To say they do is a guess, and nothing more.

[Mozart's Starling]

29 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You have direct evidence.

You know, I think you don't understand evidence, at 

Again all of this is for nothing. Anyone reading Genesis would never in a million years somehow come up with the idea of evolution. Barbarian either believes God or man and he has clearly chosen man. Just ignore the guy at this point I just see him as a troll. Genesis is very direct and written in plain language. There's no mystery about it. People WANT to make it more complicated than it is so it can fit with the secular understanding. 

Edited September 12 by Mozart's Starling

[The Barbarian]

18 minutes ago, Sparks said:

What is your direct evidence?

Observed theropod eggs, one with an embryo of a dinosaur, with aminon and posture exactly as in bird eggs.    Even microstructure of the shells of birds and other theropods is the same.

Feathers, found only in birds and other dinosaurs.

Flow-through respiratory systems, with pneumatized bones and air sacs found only in birds and some other dinosaurs

Skeletal data such as the presence of furculae (wishbones) linking birds and other dinosaurs.

Transitional fossil series, linking birds and dinosaurs which your fellow YE creationist says is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

Four chambered hearts of a specific type in birds and other theropod dinosaurs.

Heme found in the bones of a theropod dinosaur that was found to be more like that of birds than like that of other reptiles.

Would you like to see some more direct evidence?

25 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You would need a time machine to travel back to witness the first bird hatched, or that birds come from dinosaurs. 

Your belief would meant that fire investigation and forensics would be impossible.   Remember when I showed you that it was possible to know things you hadn't seen happening, by the evidence left behind?     Surely by now you realize that your excuse won't work.

 

 

[Sparks]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Observed theropod eggs, one with an embryo of a dinosaur, with aminon and posture exactly as in bird eggs.    Even microstructure of the shells of birds and other theropods is the same.

Feathers, found only in birds and other dinosaurs.

Flow-through respiratory systems, with pneumatized bones and air sacs found only in birds and some other dinosaurs

Skeletal data such as the presence of furculae (wishbones) linking birds and other dinosaurs.

Transitional fossil series, linking birds and dinosaurs which your fellow YE creationist says is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

Four chambered hearts of a specific type in birds and other theropod dinosaurs.

Heme found in the bones of a theropod dinosaur that was found to be more like that of birds than like that of other reptiles.

Would you like to see some more direct evidence?

Your belief would meant that fire investigation and forensics would be impossible.   Remember when I showed you that it was possible to know things you hadn't seen happening, by the evidence left behind?     Surely by now you realize that your excuse won't work.

A fossil is virtually stone.  No fossils link to birds, or anything else.  You are dreaming.

[Starise]

Back to square one. What does any of this have to do with a perfect alignment of scripture to the ideas of evolution? So far none of the claims made have in any way supported the outcomes claimed by TE people.

It is a belief even science doesn't support.

[The Barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

Again all of this is for nothing. Anyone reading Genesis would never in a million years somehow come up with the idea of evolution.

Or DNA or leukocytes, or plate tectonics, or any of a million other things that we observe happening in God's creation.    There are many, many things that are facts that are not in Genesis.

22 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

Barbarian either believes God or man and he has clearly chosen man.

In fact, as I've shown you, God's creation is entirely consistent with evolution, DNA, plate tectonics, and everything else we observe going on here.    You've chosen to believe man's revision of God's word to exclude anything we observe that you don't want to be true.   Why not just set your pride aside, let it be God's way?

24 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

Just ignore the guy at this point I just see him as a troll.

You're free to call names and ignore the facts.   But it really won't change the facts, will it?    Reality is very resistant to denial.    Try to find a way to accommodate His creation as it is.

25 minutes ago, Mozart's Starling said:

People WANT to make it more complicated than it is

The really impressive things about it, is that God made it so simple.   As Huxley wrote after reading Darwin's discoveries, "how incredibly stupid of me to not have realized this."

The most incomprehensible thing about God's universe, as Einstein wrote, is that is is so comprehensible.    And the evidence indicates that He set it up in the most efficient way possible.

Engineers have discovered that Darwinian evolution works more efficiently at solving complex problems than design can be.   They are now using evolutionary processes to solve very complicated engineering problems.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4079607

[Mozart's Starling]

9 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Or DNA or leukocytes, or plate tectonics, or any of a million other things that we observe happening in God's creation.    There are many, many things that are facts that are not in Genesis.

In fact, as I've shown you, God's creation is entirely consistent with evolution, DNA, plate tectonics, and everything else we observe going on here.    You've chosen to believe man's revision of God's word to exclude anything we observe that you don't want to be true.   Why not just set your pride aside, let it be God's way?

You're free to call names and ignore the facts.   But it really won't change the facts, will it?    Reality is very resistant to denial.    Try to find a way to accommodate His creation as it is.

The really impressive things about it, is that God made it so simple.   As Huxley wrote after reading Darwin's discoveries, "how incredibly stupid of me to not have realized this."

The most incomprehensible thing about God's universe, as Einstein wrote, is that is is so comprehensible.    And the evidence indicates that He set it up in the most efficient way possible.

Engineers have discovered that Darwinian evolution works more efficiently at solving complex problems than design can be.   They are now using evolutionary processes to solve very complicated engineering problems.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4079607

None of the other things such as DNA, techtonics, or other findings you listed contradict the Bible. Evolution does and you're either delusional, trolling, or just hopelessly lost on this topic to think that the two can walk hand in hand. There is no honest reading of Genesis that is compatible with evolution. Genesis says God created Man and Woman. Not apes that slowly became human over countless years. 6 days was the creation period and the ten commandmants cement that they were LITERAL days.

Edited September 12 by Mozart's Starling