DeighAnn Posted June 12 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,334 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 1,663 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12 20 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said: What does “Now” mean? 12:31 - Now G3568 is the judgment of this world: now G3568 shallthe prince of this world be cast out. Strong’s Definitions †νῦν nŷn, noon; a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:—henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time) Outline of Biblical Usage ….at this time, the present, now Words have meanings.😊 They most certainly do and the CONTEXT in which they are used is vitally important also... Is Satan called the 'prince of this world' anywhere else or are you just assuming that is who Jesus is speaking of and if so, why? I have read 'god of this world' and 'prince of the power of the air' and 'ruler of this world' etc. but can't find 'prince of this world' as referring to Satan and Satan only...that expression is only used when Jesus is speaking of his own death as far as I know. How did you arrive at 'Satan cast out of heaven and to the earth' as coming to be any part of the subject there? 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons 5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Which 'now' is the 'now' you believe is the 'now' Satan and his angels are/were cast out of heaven to the earth for a short time and how did you discern that to be correct? Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" (which means, "God with us"). Would Satan REALLY be called the 'prince of this world' while GOD walked among us? I can't get that to work in anyway in my spirit... 1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted June 12 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,334 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 1,663 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12 1 hour ago, Vine Abider said: Many pictures used in scripture are singular, which actually refers to an entity made up of numerous persons. The church is a singular title, yet many are in it. The New Jerusalem is a bride, yet is composed of many. Israel is referred to as a singular fig tree. Singular beasts are used to indicate various specific nations, and so forth. So saying "a son" does not necessarily mean one person. Remember, Revelation is a book of pictures and visions, which contains many mysterious types and representations of the reality. (and many would say this also applies to the woman in Rev 12 as not being a singular person, but rather a corporate entity of God's people - unless one believes the woman there is Mary) CC: @Stewardofthemystery Maybe why God used Hebrew and Greek, so we couldn't assume anything different but we just had to take His Word as written as being exactly what He meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewardofthemystery Posted June 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.39 Content Count: 1,274 Content Per Day: 3.23 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/02/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12 5 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Thanks. So let me address just two things here: 1. Let's say the man child is Jesus . . . in that case, after Harod seeks to kill Him, the woman (Mary) would flee into the wilderness for 1,260 days (3.5 years). This would indicate she left her child to flee away. This did not happen --> Mary took Jesus and they fled together to Egypt. (plus their time in Egypt was much less than 1,260 days) The main errors I see in the above is that the woman that gave birth to the man child is not referring to Mary, it is referring to the heavenly Jerusalem who is “the Mother” of all those who are born of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Notice what Paul says…. Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is “the mother of us all.” Also the time of 1,260 days is “symbolic of a time”and is not be taken at face value. Trying to confine prophetic events into this small space of time has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks to both preterists and futurists. 5 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: 2. Yes, the man child will rule with a rod of iron - also promised to the church in Rev 2:26-27 "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery— just as I have received authority from My Father." Hope that's helpful! The main problem with this theory that the man child is the Church, is that it ignores the “timing” of prophetic events. And it ignores the words of Jesus concerning when Satan was to be cast out of heaven. And it also ignores when Jesus said the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ would take place, which is at “the last day” at “the last trump” with the Lord descending. Revelation 12 is NOT about the resurrection of the Church, the Bride of the Lamb. Hope that helps. Peace ✌️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 12 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 219 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,650 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 2,464 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 12 3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said: Maybe why God used Hebrew and Greek, so we couldn't assume anything different but we just had to take His Word as written as being exactly what He meant. Not sure what that means . . . LOL! So pursuant to the conversation about when Satan was cast down from heaven, has it been addressed yet in this thread that Paul refers to this in Ephesians 6:12 when he mentions, "principalities and powers in heavenly places"? So we know the devil is still there in Paul's day. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 12 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 42,162 Content Per Day: 8.07 Reputation: 21,984 Days Won: 78 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 12 10 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Not sure what that means . . . LOL! So pursuant to the conversation about when Satan was cast down from heaven, has it been addressed yet in this thread that Paul refers to this in Ephesians 6:12 when he mentions, "principalities and powers in heavenly places"? So we know the devil is still there in Paul's day. This is the excellence of knowing Scripture and allowing Scripture to lead, guide and direct us in proper thinking... Thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 12 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 42,162 Content Per Day: 8.07 Reputation: 21,984 Days Won: 78 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 12 39 minutes ago, DeighAnn said: Would Satan REALLY be called the 'prince of this world' while GOD walked among us? I can't get that to work in anyway in my spirit... Ephesians 2:2 (KJV) [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Paul said he was the prince and power of this air... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewardofthemystery Posted June 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.39 Content Count: 1,274 Content Per Day: 3.23 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/02/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12 35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said: They most certainly do and the CONTEXT in which they are used is vitally important also... Is Satan called the 'prince of this world' anywhere else or are you just assuming that is who Jesus is speaking of and if so, why? I have read 'god of this world' and 'prince of the power of the air' and 'ruler of this world' etc. but can't find 'prince of this world' as referring to Satan and Satan only...that expression is only used when Jesus is speaking of his own death as far as I know. How did you arrive at 'Satan cast out of heaven and to the earth' as coming to be any part of the subject there? 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons 5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Which 'now' is the 'now' you believe is the 'now' Satan and his angels are/were cast out of heaven to the earth for a short time and how did you discern that to be correct? Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" (which means, "God with us"). Would Satan REALLY be called the 'prince of this world' while GOD walked among us? I can't get that to work in anyway in my spirit... 1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Satan is known by many names and titles. Jesus called him the Prince of this world, in Daniel he is called a Prince. Satan is called the Prince of the power of the air. He is called the god of this world. Satan is called the Devil, the old serpent, Leviathan, the Dragon, the Red Dragon, and he is also called the King over the children of pride. So take your pick.👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted June 12 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 219 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,650 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 2,464 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted June 12 4 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said: The main errors I see in the above is that the woman that gave birth to the man child is not referring to Mary, it is referring to the heavenly Jerusalem who is “the Mother” of all those who are born of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Notice what Paul says…. Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is “the mother of us all.” Also the time of 1,260 days is “symbolic of a time”and is not be taken at face value. Trying to confine prophetic events into this small space of time has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks to both preterists and futurists. The main problem with this theory that the man child is the Church, is that it ignores the “timing” of prophetic events. And it ignores the words of Jesus concerning when Satan was to be cast out of heaven. And it also ignores when Jesus said the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ would take place, which is at “the last day” at “the last trump” with the Lord descending. Revelation 12 is NOT about the resurrection of the Church, the Bride of the Lamb. Hope that helps. Peace ✌️ I agree that the woman is not Mary. I was just pointing that out that some think it is. Therefore I think that the woman probably represents God's people. Some might narrow that down and say the woman is the church, therefore the man child is the stronger part of the church. That is, those who have more of the fullness of Christ. But, if we carry the type of the woman forward from Rev 12 to the end of the book, it could be that the bride (the New Jerusalem) is all God's people - as you said. If one believes there is more than one rapture, then the difficulty of many supposed end of the age timing issues goes away . . . Here's something to think about: Verses 10 & 11 of Rev 12 are referring to what the man child did. Plural pronouns and plural references are used in these verses: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." So it would seem that the man child is a corporate entity. My supposition is that the man child is Christ, but it is Christ in a group of believers. This restores what God had purposed for man in Genesis 2:26, "And let them have dominion . . . over all the earth, and over everything on it, and over every creeping thing" (e.g. snakes). This is what Christ came to do in and through man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewardofthemystery Posted June 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.39 Content Count: 1,274 Content Per Day: 3.23 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/02/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12 29 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Paul refers to this in Ephesians 6:12 when he mentions, "principalities and powers in heavenly places"? So we know the devil is still there in Paul's day. Nope, that’s not what Paul meant Paul was talking about “ the rulers of the darkness of this world” These spirits are working in men in high positions (high places) of power. Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against “the rulers of the darkness of this world,”against spiritual wickedness in high places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted June 12 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 254 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,246 Content Per Day: 3.31 Reputation: 5,170 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted June 12 1 minute ago, Stewardofthemystery said: These spirits Good starting point . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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