When was Satan cast out of heaven down to the earth?

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I believe Satan was already out of Gods favor before he ever deceived Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 

Amen to that, given iniquity was found in him, which caused him to become the tempter.

(Mat 4:3)  And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If You are the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(1Th 3:5)  For this cause, when I could no longer endure, I also sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter may have tempted you and our labor may have been in vain.

(Gen 3:13)  And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Eve knew what deception was.

[Stewardofthemystery]

9 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Everything John saw from Rev. 4:1 onward  takes place after the time of John, and after the era of the 7 churches of Rev. 2-3:

Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these things.”

So the events of Rev. 12 could not have been fulfilled before the time of John's vision. Deny this if you will.

The issue that confounds people regarding the time and manner of the casting down of Satan is the overlooked fact that there are -- count 'em -- THREE heavens. Satan has been cast down from one to another over time, the last time being, in the time of Jesus, when he was cast down to the lowest heaven, to become "the prince/archon of the air." Ephesians 2:2 That is the heaven that is immediately above this world, and therefore most closely interacts with it.

When Jesus returns at His Parousia "in clouds [of the lowest heaven] ... in air..." to rapture His saints, then Satan will be cast down from that lowest heaven unto the earth, "having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 1 Thes. 4:17; Rev. 12:12 That will be his final fall/casting down from the three heavens.

 

The Revelation events are not in chronological order.  The events are past, present, and future.

Revelation 1:19

Write the things which thou “hast seen,” and the things which “are,”and the things which shall be “hereafter;”

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Everything John saw from Rev. 4:1 onward  takes place after the time of John, and after the era of the 7 churches of Rev. 2-3:

Are you saying that when Jesus came to John in 95 or so AD while he was on the isle of Patmos, he hadn't yet been crucified?  Cause God is sitting alone on His throne until the Lamb of God shows up having been found worthy to open the book...


The word written is 'this' not 'these things'. 'These things' is how it was translated, not how it was written. 

After this I looked and behold a door....

 

29 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The issue that confounds people regarding the time and manner of the casting down of Satan is the overlooked fact that there are -- count 'em -- THREE heavens.

Please start a topic on this as I am very curious as how you arrived at all that.   

[Michael37]

13 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Please start a topic on this as I am very curious as how you arrived at all that.   

Heaps of stuff on the Web about it @DeighAnn

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

The Revelation events are not in chronological order.  The events are past, present, and future.

Revelation 1:19

Write the things which thou “hast seen,” and the things which “are,”and the things which shall be “hereafter;”

Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw..."

Rev. 2-3 tells about "the things which are" in John's time: the letters to the 7 churches about current affairs in the individual churches.

Rev. 4:1ff. tell about "things which must take place after this;" this being the time of the vision given to John.

So you cannot presume to put anything that John was shown in vision from that point onward in the past, because the sure word of prophecy has spoken, and told us what the order of the book is.

[BlindSeeker]

8 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

So you don’t have any verses to prove Satan was cast out of heaven for good at that time?  
 

That is what I thought.  The reason is, the words of God do not contradict.  Jesus told us exactly “when”Satan would be cast out heaven.  The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation confirm this truth.

Here are the verses, the first shortly after Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on the a colt –

John 12:23 – And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. ²⁴ Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it dies, it will bring forth much fruit… ²⁷ Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour? But for this cause came I unto this hour. ²⁸ Father, glorify Your name.” Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” ²⁹ The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, some saying that it thundered: others said, “An angel spoke to Him.” ³⁰ But Jesus answered and said, “This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes. ³¹ For now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. ³² And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me.” ³³ This he said, signifying what death He should die. ³⁴ The people answered Him, “We have heard out of the law that Christ abides forever: and how then do you say, “The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?”

The next two are taken from the Last Supper –

John 14:28 – You have heard how I said unto you, that I go away and will come again unto you. If you love Me, you would rejoice, because I said I go unto My Father, for My Father [being omnipresent] is greater than I[as a man]. ²⁹ And now I told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass you might believe. ³⁰ Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world is coming, and has nothing in Me.

John 16:7 – I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send Him unto you. ⁸ And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment… ¹¹ Of judgment because the prince of this world is judged.

And of course, here Jesus is on the cross at the end of His sacrifice –

John 19:28 – …Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst.” ²⁹ Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop, and raised it up to His mouth. ³⁰ When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, “It is finished,” and bowed his head and gave up the ghost.

Here Paul is affirming what was finished, and when. –

 Colossians 2:13 – And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all your trespasses. ¹⁴ Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, by nailing it to His cross, ¹⁵ For having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly and triumphed over them upon the cross.

 

However, I would also like to touch on something with the above verses from the discourse at the Last Supper, as well as other things spoken by the disciples and Jesus’ answer to them. To start  -

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.  7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him. 8 Then Philip said unto Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it will suffice us.  9 Jesus answered him, saying “Have I been so long time with you, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father; so why then do ask you, ‘Show us the Father?’ 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, He it is that does the works.  11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, or else believe Me for the very works' sake.”

Jesus saying He is the way to the Father is a specific reference to His flesh and blood humanity, His being made “lower than the angels.”

Hebrews 10:4 - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 For in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.”  7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come, and in the volume of the book it is written of Me, to do Your will, O God.” 8 For as was previously said, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law). 9 But when He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

(Now, since the thread is “Did Jesus as a man have faith? "was on my mind when writing this one, I included part of my thought on that here as well. Sorry.)

I would state that the disciples did not, at least not an illuminating one into things not seen. I mean, sure they had faith, but it was so rudimental that they were still not seeing and discerning the things of the Spirit.

Because they had a belief system, that Jesus was the Messiah sent from God, He was going to make Israel great again, and restore it to its former glory. But again, there own theological belief system was actual a means to their blindness and lack of faith, a made which had Jesus often asking them “Have you no faith?” and telling straight forward “Oh you of such little faith.”

Therefore, Jesus could not speak to them plainly because they had no ears to hear, and yet like most people who have their theological strongholds, they were very quick at times to say they do.

They were like many Christians today, who believe in God yet do not truly know Him. They read the scriptures and believe they are true, but they could not rightly divide it and apply it. They understood good and evil, had a sense of morality, and even had an elementary understanding of righteousness, yet they were virtually blind when it came to spiritual understanding. The evidence is plain in that what Jesus told them at the supper came to past, “Do you now believe?  I tell you now the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered each to his own way, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.”

But what was it they said to Jesus right before He made the above statement to them. Right there at the end of the Last Supper discourse, after all he told them in chapters 14, 15, up to here in the end of chapter 16, “His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! Now we are sure that You know all things and we have no need that anyone should further question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."

Can you not see the absurdity of their statement? But they meant it and believed it with all their mind and hearts. The problem was it was a mere statement of belief and not one of faith. Though what they believed was true, it was impartial truth. They had no substance to lay hold of, and thus were still failing to grasp the evidence of the unseen.

Such is why Jesus shortly before their confident declaration told them, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore, I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Because of their not having the fulness of the Spirit of Christ in them yet, and that even tough forgiven of their sins, their bodies (which are the temples of God) where not sanctified by His blood. Therefore, Jesus is speaking to them using first, second, and third pronouns or reference to Himself, the Father, and the Spirit.

But as we saw in the beginning of all this Jesus told them all, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father, for I and My Father are one.” But when He speaks of the Spirit of Truth coming, we cannot forget that there is but one Spirit, one Lord, and one Father. Did not Jesus say He was the way, the Truth, and the Life? And is not our Lord Jesus Christ the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, who only has immortality, and dwells in the light which no man can approach?

And when Jesus told them, “I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.” But then, Jesus speaking again to them using first, second, and third pronouns or reference to Himself, the Father, and the Spirit, makes this clear statement, “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.”

Such is why Paul stated to the Corinthians that if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. People, the disciples simply did not understand what Jesus was telling them at the last supper, even though they thought they did. And even today, many believers are reading it the same way thinking they to understand it.

Now next, I would like to remind you that Jesus gave the first proof of His divine ministry at a wedding which He and His disciples were invited to, with the miracle of His turning water into wine. For if you recall, at this wedding there were six vessels of stone which held water, which were there solely because of the Jews vain religious tradition whereby they would not eat unless they had first washed their hands. And yet, it was these very vessels, being filled up by the servants with clean water, that Jesus used and turned the water therein into wine, and it was “good wine.” Can anyone readily see a sermon in that alone already?

 Now, in doing so, having replaced the water with wine, Jesus had literally removed this vain work of purification from the wedding and replaced it with what would become symbolic to His followers of that which alone could purify men from their sins, His blood. (And never forget, it is still all about The Wedding.) Yet here at the end of His earthly ministry we see men giving to Him vinegar to drink just before He says, “It is finished.” But do you not know that the consequence of neglected wine is that it turns to vinegar? Thus, their actions were a testimony against them, that they wanted nothing to do with Jesus or His Gospel. As Isaiah foretold, He was despised and rejected of men and considered accursed of God by them.

But through it all, the faithful angels having “seen” the life and death of Christ were now fully persuaded that God was deserving of all their love and service. United and energized, they fought against Satan and forever expelled him and his angels from heaven. Yet, not only did the holy angels fight for God, but they also fought for God’s people as well; and they continue to minister to the saints according to God’s will. Satan can no longer come before the throne of God and hurl his blasphemous accusations. He and his lies had been put to an open shame at the cross, (Colossians 2:14 & 15). God’s victory could not be hidden or denied. For by this pinnacle event of all eternity, God “made peace through the blood of His cross… to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven,” (Colossians 2:12 thru 20).

But what does God’s word say now to those on earth? “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth… for the devil has come unto you with great wrath, for he knows that he has but a short time,” (Revelation 12:12). Having been exposed and humiliated by his defeat, Satan knows that his days are numbered. Therefore, he seeks to do as much damage through his deceit as he continues to “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of false teachings, attacking the woman representing the church, “that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood,” (Revelation 12:16). This is evident in the Apostle Paul’s statement to the Galatians, “I marvel that you are so soon removed” and easily carried away “from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed,” (Galatians 1:6 thru 8).

The devil has a foaming hatred and raging wrath towards all humanity, but especially so against Israel and the Church. Ultimately, because man is created in the image of God, who He proved His love for man via Jesus Christ and the work of the cross. Therefore, the devil’s only avenue of vengeance toward God is his constant cunning pursuit for any opportunity to turn man against man in hatred for each other as he attempts to deceive, persecute, and destroy the Body of Christ. He knows he can’t defeat God, for he was literally cast out of heaven and knows his time is short. Therefore, ever since then his wrath has been constantly demonstrated against the church and Israel as his only means of retaliation against God.

Yes, God was manifested in the flesh of the Man Jesus, the Christ, the brightness of His glory and the expressed image of His person, and after His death, resurrection, God was then and thereby justified in the spirit.

However, since the fall of the once anointed cherub Lucifer, “the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent, [or the determined must] take it by force,” for the devil will oppose to the end all who would strive to enter in, (Matthew 11:12). But let us never forget, just as the angels and saints of old overcame, so can every true believer today!

 

Sorry for any typos, was in a hurry....

Edited June 14 by BlindSeeker
grammar correction

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

The word written is 'this' not 'these things'. 'These things' is how it was translated, not how it was written. 

Not correct. The same exact two words are used at the beginning and at the end of John 4:1 -- "After these things/μετὰ ταῦτα ... after these things/μετὰ ταῦτα."

The Greek text stands authoritative, not your preferred translation.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying that when Jesus came to John in 95 or so AD while he was on the isle of Patmos, he hadn't yet been crucified?  Cause God is sitting alone on His throne until the Lamb of God shows up having been found worthy to open the book...

God begins the judgment of the End Times first by sitting upon His heavenly throne of judgment. Jesus must present his blood of sacrifice "for the people" "a second time." Which is why He is portrayed as the Slain Lamb:

…Christ, having been offered once for to bear the sins of many, will appear ek/out of the heavenly sanctuary (9:7-12) a SECOND time unto those eagerly awaiting Him for their salvation.

In the context of Hebrews 9, verse 28 is His coming out of the heavenly sanctuary after His SECOND offering “for the people”: that of His Adamic nature. Heb. 9:7; Lev. 16:15 His FIRST offering, as with Aaron in the earthly sanctuary each Day of Atonement on Tishri 10, was “for Himself and for His house.” Heb. 3:6; 9:7, 12; Lev. 16:11, 29 For there are two priestly houses: one of Aaron, and one of Christ. These are the earthly and heavenly priesthoods originally named after Aaron and Melchizedek, respectively; things fully explained in Hebrews 5 – 8.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2951-the-24-elders-of-revelation-part-5-the-double-sacrifice/

Also see the previous blog article, and this one:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1514-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-trumpetsrosh-hashanah/

 

 

[BlindSeeker]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

The Revelation events are not in chronological order.  The events are past, present, and future.

I agree.

[Stewardofthemystery]

22 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

So you cannot presume to put anything that John was shown in vision from that point onward in the past, because the sure word of prophecy has spoken, and told us what the order of the book is.

I don’t presume to know, I know.  For instance, the mark of the beast has been around for thousands of years before John even received the Revelation, but those who do not understand think it is yet future.

Jesus was crucified and ascended to heaven and Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth before John even received the Revelation.

If you want to know the future, look to the past.

Ecclesiastes 3:15

That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

 

 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I don’t presume to know, I know.  For instance, the mark of the beast has been around for thousands of years before John even received the Revelation, but those who do not understand think it is yet future.

Jesus was crucified and ascended to heaven and Satan was cast out of heaven down to earth before John even received the Revelation.

If you want to know the future, look to the past.

Ecclesiastes 3:15

That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

 

 

I was just reading in Genesis 3:14. 
 

Doesn’t this tell us when satan was removed from heaven? He is now relegated to the earth until the end of time. 
 

As I mentioned, for me, I have to start at the beginning …