Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, we agree on the four kingdoms - Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and the final fourth kingdom of pagan Rome which wll be slain and its body destroyed  (7:11) to be replaced by papal Rome around the time  of the 6th century and will continue until the end of time.

Actually, God has purposefully identified the 3 powers (not kingdoms) for us to focus on in Chapter 8. They are not described or identified at the kingdom level but serve to have us begin to look at things in a non- historical view. 

In Chapter 8, He mentions the following:

8:4 -  the "ram" (not kingdom) was "great" (Medes-Persia),

8:8 - the "he goat" (not kingdom) was "very great" (Greece),

8:9 -the "little horn" (not kingom of pagan Rome) was "exceedingly great" (papacy),

He is having us move our focus away from the kingdom (pure historical approach) to the important "powers" that will be found in the following chapters in Daniel. And this can be further confirmed / supported by these an additional "qualifier" purposefully incorporated in Chapter 8:

the "ram" - has 2 horns,

the "he-goat" has 1 horn,

the "little horn" IS 1 horn. (A minor correction that may be significant in its interpretation.)

Only those that have been assigned a "horn" in Chapter 8 are mentioned and spoken about. Unlike Chapter 7, there is no mention of either Babylon nor pagan Rome. They were not assigned the identity of having a "horn."

As Daniel moves into the coming Chapters, there is less (much less) discussion on the first 3 kingdoms (they are in our review mirror), and almost exclusively on the 4th kingdom - especially the "divided" kingdom of papal Rome and the little horn.

Shalom, @Charlie744.

Let's look at Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:1-27 (KJV)

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar (Babylon) a vision appeared unto me, [even unto] me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I [was] at Shushan [in] the palace, which [is] in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward (around the Fertile Crescent); so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint (holy one) speaking, and another saint (holy one) said unto that certain [saint] which spake,

"How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

14 And he said unto me,

"Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

15 And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said,

"Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision."

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me,

"Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end (the end of the king) [shall be] the vision."

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said,

"Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. 20 The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days."

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick [certain] days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood [it].

This prophecy is FULFILLED; it's FINISHED! This is the SAME Belshazzar who saw the fingers of a man's hand write the four words on the wall in chapter 5; so, this is close to the end of Babylon's rulership.

GaVriy'eel ("Gabriel") gives us the play-by-play in verses 19-26. 

The ram = the Kingdom of Media and Persia, and the horns are the kings of that empire. They expanded their kingdom through Syria (north), into Lebanon and Tyre and Sidon (west) and into the Land of Israel (south). They reached all the way to the border of Egypt. When the great horn pushed and broke the ram, it was at the Battle of Gaugamela, which took place in 331 BC.

Macedonia was in northern Greece where Alexander's birthplace of Pella was, west and slightly north of the seaport of Thessaloniki. The king was, of course, Alexander the Great, who was the "great horn." He was broken (died) in June of 323 B.C. The four horns that grew out of the broken king Alexander were his four generals, Antigonus (north), Cassander (west), Ptolemy (south), and Seleucus (east), each one taking a portion of Alexander's growing kingdom.

Seleucus I was the first king of the Seleucid Empire, and out of his progeny came the "little horn," "a king of fierce countenance," Antichus IV "Epiphanes," who lived from around 215 B.C. to 164 B.C. He destroyed "the mighty and the holy people," the children of Israel who lived in the Land of Israel. His goal was to "Helenize" the Land, and he made becoming a "Greek" a popular thing and made it illegal under threat of death to circumcise babies, to have a copy of the Torah, or to make sacrifices to YHWH God, except with those who were true to YHWH God, such as the priest, Mattithias, and his sons, the generals who led troups against the Syrian army, such as the Maccabee ("Hammer") Judas, and WON several times, with God's help! But, Antiochus had several traitors in his pocket, including the illegitimate high priest, Jason, who was a Hellenistic Jewish high priest (175–172 B.C.)

So, when Daniel 8:9 says, "out of one of them came forth a little horn," who is described as "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences," it is talking about a king who comes out of one of the four kings, such as Seleucus, and is named "Antiochus" (the IVth, and called HIMSELF "Epiphanes" meaning "[Zeus] manifested"). He was the one of whom it was said, "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." The "holy people" were the children of Israel who had returned to the Land after the 70 years of captivity were finished. Mark this prophecy, too, "FULFILLED."

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, no. Daniel includes more symbols and images and visions, etc., than any other book in the OT. It is designed to convey so much more meaning within the meanings and interpretations than a verse on its face (cold hard facts).

While there is much symbolic imagery in the prophecies of the messengers who gave these prophecies to Daniel, they ARE EXPLAINED in detail! And, history books will CONFIRM that the prophecies were indeed FULFILLED!

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The entire book is constructed that way.... unless one decides to view it only in a matter of fact / historical approach and has the need to confirm its meaning by comparing it to our history books. Which is why Daniel is so misunderstood today.... it is not meant to be a history lesson, but comes from the mind of God to prophesy about the coming 2700 years, and only He can do so by providing us with these figurative, symbolic, spiritual (whatever you choose to call them) ways to place them within the Tanakh.

There are a few prophecies in Daniel that have not yet been fulfilled. HOWEVER, by and large, most HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! And, as I've said before, they may NOT be re-used! To envision they taught more than the reason they were given is to allow one's imagination to run away with him! It's ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES what God did NOT say through His messengers, such as Gabriel!

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As I have already mentioned, the Book of Daniel was written for the Jews and the JeWrusalem - their complete restorati0n from the complete destruction by the Babylonians. Within the 70 weeks of years prophecy, almost all of the events / actors will take place within this period. It will purposefully culminate in the coming of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. This begins His ministry and within 3.5 years of the last week He will be crucified.

Two small things here that I need to address: First, "JeWrusalem" is unnecessary. The two words "Yhudiy" and "Yerushalayim" are NOT related; they only have the "yod" in common. So, this is just ... cute, and has no business in Daniel or in any other part of the Bible.

Second, there was a second Temple built by Nechemyahuw (Nehemiah) and later sanctified by Ezra the priest. This fulfilled the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11-12 and 29:10. THIS was "the restoration from the complete destruction by the Babylonians." Those who would, could return and rebuild the city and the nation (while still under the rulership of the Medo-Persian empire). 

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, yes, Daniel is all about their physical and spiritual restoration back to Jerusalem and their God .... until, they reject and crucifify Him. Then, they are made "desolate" to their God for 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). Then, He will end this period of desolation and they will go on to preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. Then, He will return.

I agree with this, EXCEPT in the order of the 3.5 years (the last half of the seventieth Seven of years) and His return. The 3.5 years are the SECOND offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, which occurs AFTER the King has returned. The first 3.5 years of the seventieth Seven was that time period from Yeeshuwa`s baptism to His pronouncement of the desolation of the Jews and Jerusalem in Matthew 23:38. This was when YEESHUWA` ("JESUS") HIMSELF PUT the "gap" in this prophecy. There is no Kingdom without the presence of the King! That's why even today Israel still has a "Prime Minister," a STEWARD of the realm for the King when He returns (or as they believe, will come for the first time, not acknowledging that Yeeshuwa` was the Messiah promised to come). We should NOT be anticipating any significant length of time before the Messiah returns.

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

This is what Daniel is all about... it is not about the 4 kingdoms. It is all about restoring His people and His city prior to His first coming. They would have no need, reason to seek any other source but the Tanakh in preparation or understanding of the coming of their Messiah. They certainly would never look to any history book to try and compare / understand one of their books in the Tanakh. 

Are you so sure? The history books are VERIFICATION of the prophecies that have already been fulfilled. This is PROOF that the rest of the prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled SHALL come to pass, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN! That's the TRUE purpose of the histories compiled by human beings (even if the writers didn't understand it when they were writing)! Why do you think that God allows such manuscripts to survive the ravages of time? Sure, they're fallible and flawed, but they are human records of things that happened in the past. Even when recorded by one's enemies with a negative slant, as far as their commentary on the past may be, they still record certain events and VERIFY that they did indeed happen!

There are, for instance, some newspapers that have a liberal slant, such as the New York Times, and others that have a more conservative slant, such as the Chicago Tribune. But, a GOOD newspaper is going to report the facts, preferably without bias, and reserve biased reports or takes on the news for the editorial column. Many news sources today, particularly as seen on T.V., don't know how to separate their bias from the news. They've lost that journalistic integrity, allowing the audience to make up their own minds about what they see in the report.

History books can be the same way! One must read "between the lines" to find the actual facts of what happened without the bias of the historian. It takes a little work, but it can be done, especially if there are more than just one historian of an event or period.

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I have no idea what you mean here....

You said, "I have no idea what you mean here..."

Well, I had said,

"Prophecies are FUTURE HISTORY told in advance! However, we've not been there, yet, in the timeline. Therefore, there are no human accounts against which to check! Thus, we can make NO hard-and-fast statements outside of what the Scriptures actually say! 

"HOWEVER, we DO move on through the timeline, one day at a time, and those prophecies come true when God means for them to come true. He fulfills His prophecies JUST AS THEY WERE PREDICTED TO HAPPEN! When they happen, human beings may notice and will record it in human history. It's up to us to keep abreast of the changes in human history to notice the fulfillment of God's Word!

"And - take note of this part and mark it well in your mind - when a prophecy has been fulfilled, CHECK IT OFF AS "FULFILLED!" Prophecies are NOT MEANT TO BE RE-USED! When, they ARE re-used, they are frequently taken WRONGLY!"

What I mean is this: Think of seeing time from outside of time as just another dimension. We can do this to a limited degree by taking "stop-action photography" of  a ball bouncing (as in a physics experiment) or of a person walking across a room. Interposing all these images gives us a "line" of the movement within a room. Expand that line over the history of mankind in all the years recorded. That is the "timeline."

We can do this for the past into the present, but we are IN the present, as time is unfolding. We cannot see into the future what exactly will happen, although human predictions of what MIGHT happen can be made from past experiences. This is the best we can do! This is how weathermen work. "The past is the key to the future."

Prophecies from God give us SNAPSHOTS of the future that hasn't happened, yet, at the time when the prophecies were given. Those snapshots are woven into the fabric of time as time catches up to the prophecy events and periods. Once time has gone past the snapshots of prophecy, those prophecies are FULFILLED, and are then recorded as events and periods within the histories that capture them.

The time of the Babylon empire is now in the past; therefore, the prophecy regarding the "head of gold," and the prophecy of the "lion with two wings" are now in the past, as well. Stamp them "FULFILLED."

The time of the Medo-Persian empire is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "arms and chest of silver," the prophecy of the "bear with 3 ribs in its mouth," and the prophecy of the "ram with two horns" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

The time of the Macedonian/Grecian empire under Alexander the Great is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "belly and thighs of brass," the prophecy of the "leopard with four wings,"and the prophecy of the "he goat with one horn" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

The time of the four empires that grew out of Alexander's empire is also now in the past; therfore the prophecy regarding the "four heads of the leopard" and the prophecy regarding the "four horns that stood up after the great horn of the he goat was broken," are both in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

Move these from "predictions about the future" to "history."

Regarding my statement, "People are GREAT with their imaginations and conjectures, but we don't KNOW that our opinions are correct! We CAN'T know! God has hidden the future from us ON PURPOSE! Instead, we are to TRUST HIM about the future!" 

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

and 

Isaiah 46:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Therefore, God has HIDDEN THE FUTURE from us! ONLY what He has revealed through prophecy can be known, UNTIL the future becomes the present and then the past, and those prophecies are fulfilled and recorded as events and periods in history!

As someone once said, "History is HIS STORY!"

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, there is absolutely no reason one should look to our flawed history books to try and determine what God has written  in the Book of Daniel. He is not bound by our history books - which is exactly what our "today's accepted interpretations" are based on. An almost entirely historical approach.....

Take any chapter in Daniel - take Chapter 2. Is He speaking symbolically, figuratively, spiritually, etc., or literally when He mentions the 10 toes or later the 10 horns. Who is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8?

You're RIGHT! One SHOULDN'T look to our flawed history books to TRY AND DETERMINE what God has written in the Book of Daniel or in any other prophetic book! HOWEVER, one CAN look to our flawed history books to VERIFY when a prophecy has been fulfilled! It doesn't "DETERMINE" what God has written; it "VERIFIES" what God has written!

Something to consider is that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 IS DIFFERENT THAN the "little horn" of Daniel 7! In Daniel 8, the little horn (Antiochus IV) comes out of one of the four horns ("Seleucus") that replace the great horn, "Alexander the Great," in the "he goat" image.

In Daniel 7, the "little horn" there comes among the TEN horns of the FOURTH beast, uprooting three of the ten horns in the process, who was also represented as the "legs of iron" in Daniel 2. It is believed that this FOURTH beast, the legs of iron, represents the ROMAN Empire, initially under Caesar Augustus. The question becomes, "what are the ten horns?" In the other beasts, they were the the notable kings of that kingdom/empire. But, there have been SEVENTY emperors in Rome, starting with Caesar Augustus and ending with Romulus Augustus.

But, if one suspects the Roman Catholic Church, there have been TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SIX (or TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SEVEN, if one includes Stephen II) popes!

So who are the 10 horns + 1 little horn - 3 horns uprooted = 8 horns?

This much could indeed be talking about a future "little horn," for no such person has been shown to exist in human history.

Walvoord talks about a "ten-nation confederacy," but gives no positive proof of such a thing existing today, although he SURMISES a ten-nation confederacy based upon the European Commerce, but then the questions is, WHICH of the nations of Europe would be included? And, this is from an article at WWW.Walvoord.com written within 25 years ago! What has changed since then?

There are FIFTY nations in Europe, 44 of them with their capitols in Europe!

The European Union consists of 27 nations, with the possibility of the Ukraine being a 28th member (to keep it out of Russian hands).

So NONE of this sounds like a "ten-nation confederacy!"

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Why use animals and not metal types of body parts of a man like in Chapter 2?  Daniel is filled with symbolism and it is our job to try and interpret what God's message and prophecies are by Him using those symbols. 

Tell me, are there any  more than 4 kingdoms mentioned in Daniel? Does any verse in Daniel speak about any kingdom, nation, empire, religion, etc., other than the 4 kingdoms mentioned above?

Yes, in the number of the HEADS of the animals. The four heads of the 4-winged Leopard, for instance, were the four PARTS of the Macedonian/Grecian Empire: Brainly.com tells us, "The four kingdoms born out of Alexander's empire's demise were the Ptolemaic, Seleucid, Antigonid, and Attalid kingdoms, each founded by one of Alexander's generals or their successors."

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Tell me what verse 2:41 -43 is telling us.... is God using symbols here or are these cold hard facts that anyone can understand? Why does this "little horn" suddenly come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome - who is he and what does it mean?

I don't know, yet. It's ASSUMED that this 4th kingdom was pagan Rome, i.e., the Roman Empire, and that would seem to be true, but that is NOT revealed by the messengers ("angels").

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

There are a so many symbols, images, visions and prophecies in Daniel and He has done a terrific job of designing this book of prophecy to cover over 2700 years... meaning, if one were to try and design a book to cover the same 2700 year period, in a historical manner, it would take at least 10,000 volumes and 10,000 years for us to read and try to understand. God is only going to include (actors and events) with Daniel that will give us His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind - all in 12 relatively short chapters. Leave your history books in the library, they are worthless when trying to understand and interpret Daniel. God will and is more than capable of including just what He wants us to see in these writings. He will not leave anything out that would prevent us from truly interpreting His plan of salvation.

Well, I just think you're LIMITING yourself to a view of Daniel that is less than was given. Prophecies are MEANT to be understood as they are fulfilled, and history books record their fulfillment.

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Charlie744.

Let's look at Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:1-27 (KJV)

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar (Babylon) a vision appeared unto me, [even unto] me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I [was] at Shushan [in] the palace, which [is] in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward (around the Fertile Crescent); so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint (holy one) speaking, and another saint (holy one) said unto that certain [saint] which spake,

"How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

14 And he said unto me,

"Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

15 And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said,

"Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision."

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me,

"Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end (the end of the king) [shall be] the vision."

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said,

"Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. 20 The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days."

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick [certain] days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood [it].

This prophecy is FULFILLED; it's FINISHED! This is the SAME Belshazzar who saw the fingers of a man's hand write the four words on the wall in chapter 5; so, this is close to the end of Babylon's rulership.

GaVriy'eel ("Gabriel") gives us the play-by-play in verses 19-26. 

The ram = the Kingdom of Media and Persia, and the horns are the kings of that empire. They expanded their kingdom through Syria (north), into Lebanon and Tyre and Sidon (west) and into the Land of Israel (south). They reached all the way to the border of Egypt. When the great horn pushed and broke the ram, it was at the Battle of Gaugamela, which took place in 331 BC.

Macedonia was in northern Greece where Alexander's birthplace of Pella was, west and slightly north of the seaport of Thessaloniki. The king was, of course, Alexander the Great, who was the "great horn." He was broken (died) in June of 323 B.C. The four horns that grew out of the broken king Alexander were his four generals, Antigonus (north), Cassander (west), Ptolemy (south), and Seleucus (east), each one taking a portion of Alexander's growing kingdom.

Seleucus I was the first king of the Seleucid Empire, and out of his progeny came the "little horn," "a king of fierce countenance," Antichus IV "Epiphanes," who lived from around 215 B.C. to 164 B.C. He destroyed "the mighty and the holy people," the children of Israel who lived in the Land of Israel. His goal was to "Helenize" the Land, and he made becoming a "Greek" a popular thing and made it illegal under threat of death to circumcise babies, to have a copy of the Torah, or to make sacrifices to YHWH God, except with those who were true to YHWH God, such as the priest, Mattithias, and his sons, the generals who led troups against the Syrian army, such as the Maccabee ("Hammer") Judas, and WON several times, with God's help! But, Antiochus had several traitors in his pocket, including the illegitimate high priest, Jason, who was a Hellenistic Jewish high priest (175–172 B.C.)

So, when Daniel 8:9 says, "out of one of them came forth a little horn," who is described as "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences," it is talking about a king who comes out of one of the four kings, such as Seleucus, and is named "Antiochus" (the IVth, and called HIMSELF "Epiphanes" meaning "[Zeus] manifested"). He was the one of whom it was said, "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." The "holy people" were the children of Israel who had returned to the Land after the 70 years of captivity were finished. Mark this prophecy, too, "FULFILLED."

While there is much symbolic imagery in the prophecies of the messengers who gave these prophecies to Daniel, they ARE EXPLAINED in detail! And, history books will CONFIRM that the prophecies were indeed FULFILLED!

There are a few prophecies in Daniel that have not yet been fulfilled. HOWEVER, by and large, most HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! And, as I've said before, they may NOT be re-used! To envision they taught more than the reason they were given is to allow one's imagination to run away with him! It's ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES what God did NOT say through His messengers, such as Gabriel!

Two small things here that I need to address: First, "JeWrusalem" is unnecessary. The two words "Yhudiy" and "Yerushalayim" are NOT related; they only have the "yod" in common. So, this is just ... cute, and has no business in Daniel or in any other part of the Bible.

Second, there was a second Temple built by Nechemyahuw (Nehemiah) and later sanctified by Ezra the priest. This fulfilled the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11-12 and 29:10. THIS was "the restoration from the complete destruction by the Babylonians." Those who would, could return and rebuild the city and the nation (while still under the rulership of the Medo-Persian empire). 

I agree with this, EXCEPT in the order of the 3.5 years (the last half of the seventieth Seven of years) and His return. The 3.5 years are the SECOND offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, which occurs AFTER the King has returned. The first 3.5 years of the seventieth Seven was that time period from Yeeshuwa`s baptism to His pronouncement of the desolation of the Jews and Jerusalem in Matthew 23:38. This was when YEESHUWA` ("JESUS") HIMSELF PUT the "gap" in this prophecy. There is no Kingdom without the presence of the King! That's why even today Israel still has a "Prime Minister," a STEWARD of the realm for the King when He returns (or as they believe, will come for the first time, not acknowledging that Yeeshuwa` was the Messiah promised to come). We should NOT be anticipating any significant length of time before the Messiah returns.

Are you so sure? The history books are VERIFICATION of the prophecies that have already been fulfilled. This is PROOF that the rest of the prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled SHALL come to pass, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN! That's the TRUE purpose of the histories compiled by human beings (even if the writers didn't understand it when they were writing)! Why do you think that God allows such manuscripts to survive the ravages of time? Sure, they're fallible and flawed, but they are human records of things that happened in the past. Even when recorded by one's enemies with a negative slant, as far as their commentary on the past may be, they still record certain events and VERIFY that they did indeed happen!

There are, for instance, some newspapers that have a liberal slant, such as the New York Times, and others that have a more conservative slant, such as the Chicago Tribune. But, a GOOD newspaper is going to report the facts, preferably without bias, and reserve biased reports or takes on the news for the editorial column. Many news sources today, particularly as seen on T.V., don't know how to separate their bias from the news. They've lost that journalistic integrity, allowing the audience to make up their own minds about what they see in the report.

History books can be the same way! One must read "between the lines" to find the actual facts of what happened without the bias of the historian. It takes a little work, but it can be done, especially if there are more than just one historian of an event or period.

You said, "I have no idea what you mean here..."

Well, I had said,

"Prophecies are FUTURE HISTORY told in advance! However, we've not been there, yet, in the timeline. Therefore, there are no human accounts against which to check! Thus, we can make NO hard-and-fast statements outside of what the Scriptures actually say! 

"HOWEVER, we DO move on through the timeline, one day at a time, and those prophecies come true when God means for them to come true. He fulfills His prophecies JUST AS THEY WERE PREDICTED TO HAPPEN! When they happen, human beings may notice and will record it in human history. It's up to us to keep abreast of the changes in human history to notice the fulfillment of God's Word!

"And - take note of this part and mark it well in your mind - when a prophecy has been fulfilled, CHECK IT OFF AS "FULFILLED!" Prophecies are NOT MEANT TO BE RE-USED! When, they ARE re-used, they are frequently taken WRONGLY!"

What I mean is this: Think of seeing time from outside of time as just another dimension. We can do this to a limited degree by taking "stop-action photography" of  a ball bouncing (as in a physics experiment) or of a person walking across a room. Interposing all these images gives us a "line" of the movement within a room. Expand that line over the history of mankind in all the years recorded. That is the "timeline."

We can do this for the past into the present, but we are IN the present, as time is unfolding. We cannot see into the future what exactly will happen, although human predictions of what MIGHT happen can be made from past experiences. This is the best we can do! This is how weathermen work. "The past is the key to the future."

Prophecies from God give us SNAPSHOTS of the future that hasn't happened, yet, at the time when the prophecies were given. Those snapshots are woven into the fabric of time as time catches up to the prophecy events and periods. Once time has gone past the snapshots of prophecy, those prophecies are FULFILLED, and are then recorded as events and periods within the histories that capture them.

The time of the Babylon empire is now in the past; therefore, the prophecy regarding the "head of gold," and the prophecy of the "lion with two wings" are now in the past, as well. Stamp them "FULFILLED."

The time of the Medo-Persian empire is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "arms and chest of silver," the prophecy of the "bear with 3 ribs in its mouth," and the prophecy of the "ram with two horns" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

The time of the Macedonian/Grecian empire under Alexander the Great is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "belly and thighs of brass," the prophecy of the "leopard with four wings,"and the prophecy of the "he goat with one horn" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

The time of the four empires that grew out of Alexander's empire is also now in the past; therfore the prophecy regarding the "four heads of the leopard" and the prophecy regarding the "four horns that stood up after the great horn of the he goat was broken," are both in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

Move these from "predictions about the future" to "history."

Regarding my statement, "People are GREAT with their imaginations and conjectures, but we don't KNOW that our opinions are correct! We CAN'T know! God has hidden the future from us ON PURPOSE! Instead, we are to TRUST HIM about the future!" 

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

and 

Isaiah 46:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Therefore, God has HIDDEN THE FUTURE from us! ONLY what He has revealed through prophecy can be known, UNTIL the future becomes the present and then the past, and those prophecies are fulfilled and recorded as events and periods in history!

As someone once said, "History is HIS STORY!"

You're RIGHT! One SHOULDN'T look to our flawed history books to TRY AND DETERMINE what God has written in the Book of Daniel or in any other prophetic book! HOWEVER, one CAN look to our flawed history books to VERIFY when a prophecy has been fulfilled! It doesn't "DETERMINE" what God has written; it "VERIFIES" what God has written!

Something to consider is that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 IS DIFFERENT THAN the "little horn" of Daniel 7! In Daniel 8, the little horn (Antiochus IV) comes out of one of the four horns ("Seleucus") that replace the great horn, "Alexander the Great," in the "he goat" image.

In Daniel 7, the "little horn" there comes among the TEN horns of the FOURTH beast, uprooting three of the ten horns in the process, who was also represented as the "legs of iron" in Daniel 2. It is believed that this FOURTH beast, the legs of iron, represents the ROMAN Empire, initially under Caesar Augustus. The question becomes, "what are the ten horns?" In the other beasts, they were the the notable kings of that kingdom/empire. But, there have been SEVENTY emperors in Rome, starting with Caesar Augustus and ending with Romulus Augustus.

But, if one suspects the Roman Catholic Church, there have been TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SIX (or TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SEVEN, if one includes Stephen II) popes!

So who are the 10 horns + 1 little horn - 3 horns uprooted = 8 horns?

This much could indeed be talking about a future "little horn," for no such person has been shown to exist in human history.

Walvoord talks about a "ten-nation confederacy," but gives no positive proof of such a thing existing today, although he SURMISES a ten-nation confederacy based upon the European Commerce, but then the questions is, WHICH of the nations of Europe would be included? And, this is from an article at WWW.Walvoord.com written within 25 years ago! What has changed since then?

There are FIFTY nations in Europe, 44 of them with their capitols in Europe!

The European Union consists of 27 nations, with the possibility of the Ukraine being a 28th member (to keep it out of Russian hands).

So NONE of this sounds like a "ten-nation confederacy!"

Yes, in the number of the HEADS of the animals. The four heads of the 4-winged Leopard, for instance, were the four PARTS of the Macedonian/Grecian Empire: Brainly.com tells us, "The four kingdoms born out of Alexander's empire's demise were the Ptolemaic, Seleucid, Antigonid, and Attalid kingdoms, each founded by one of Alexander's generals or their successors."

I don't know, yet. It's ASSUMED that this 4th kingdom was pagan Rome, i.e., the Roman Empire, and that would seem to be true, but that is NOT revealed by the messengers ("angels").

Well, I just think you're LIMITING yourself to a view of Daniel that is less than was given. Prophecies are MEANT to be understood as they are fulfilled, and history books record their fulfillment.

Roy, I am alittle sick --- I had completed most of my response to you but accidentily hit the wrong button and lost it all..... I will have to start again from scratch this evening.... darn it..... Charlie

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Charlie744.

Let's look at Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:1-27 (KJV)

1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar (Babylon) a vision appeared unto me, [even unto] me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. 2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I [was] at Shushan [in] the palace, which [is] in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward (around the Fertile Crescent); so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint (holy one) speaking, and another saint (holy one) said unto that certain [saint] which spake,

"How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

14 And he said unto me,

"Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

15 And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said,

"Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision."

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me,

"Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end (the end of the king) [shall be] the vision."

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said,

"Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. 20 The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days."

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick [certain] days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood [it].

This prophecy is FULFILLED; it's FINISHED! This is the SAME Belshazzar who saw the fingers of a man's hand write the four words on the wall in chapter 5; so, this is close to the end of Babylon's rulership.

GaVriy'eel ("Gabriel") gives us the play-by-play in verses 19-26. 

The ram = the Kingdom of Media and Persia, and the horns are the kings of that empire. They expanded their kingdom through Syria (north), into Lebanon and Tyre and Sidon (west) and into the Land of Israel (south). They reached all the way to the border of Egypt. When the great horn pushed and broke the ram, it was at the Battle of Gaugamela, which took place in 331 BC.

Macedonia was in northern Greece where Alexander's birthplace of Pella was, west and slightly north of the seaport of Thessaloniki. The king was, of course, Alexander the Great, who was the "great horn." He was broken (died) in June of 323 B.C. The four horns that grew out of the broken king Alexander were his four generals, Antigonus (north), Cassander (west), Ptolemy (south), and Seleucus (east), each one taking a portion of Alexander's growing kingdom.

Seleucus I was the first king of the Seleucid Empire, and out of his progeny came the "little horn," "a king of fierce countenance," Antichus IV "Epiphanes," who lived from around 215 B.C. to 164 B.C. He destroyed "the mighty and the holy people," the children of Israel who lived in the Land of Israel. His goal was to "Helenize" the Land, and he made becoming a "Greek" a popular thing and made it illegal under threat of death to circumcise babies, to have a copy of the Torah, or to make sacrifices to YHWH God, except with those who were true to YHWH God, such as the priest, Mattithias, and his sons, the generals who led troups against the Syrian army, such as the Maccabee ("Hammer") Judas, and WON several times, with God's help! But, Antiochus had several traitors in his pocket, including the illegitimate high priest, Jason, who was a Hellenistic Jewish high priest (175–172 B.C.)

So, when Daniel 8:9 says, "out of one of them came forth a little horn," who is described as "a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences," it is talking about a king who comes out of one of the four kings, such as Seleucus, and is named "Antiochus" (the IVth, and called HIMSELF "Epiphanes" meaning "[Zeus] manifested"). He was the one of whom it was said, "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." The "holy people" were the children of Israel who had returned to the Land after the 70 years of captivity were finished. Mark this prophecy, too, "FULFILLED."

Thanks for your response. I can certainly understand how you are interpreting these difficult verses within Daniel. And since just about 100% of all the commentaries that have been "accepted," whether the scholars, academics or theologians have adopted a futurist or preterist interpretation, they not only can not agree among themselves but they are both looking at Daniel either in a purely historical manner or in a partially historical manner (first 4 or 6 chapters), and then begin to throw so much of the remaining chapters some 2000 years in the future. Both are incorrect. 

And that certainly sounds terrible since it is clear THEY are the well respected scholars, academics. theologians and truly brillant individuals, most of which have dedicated their lives to the study and interpretation of God's Word... in this case of course, Daniel.

Now, I AM NOT ONE THAT FITS OR BELONGS IN ANY ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIES.  PERIOD!!!!! But when I started this project over 5 years ago, the very first thing I did was to try and read and understand what THOSE FOLKS have already done with Daniel. They literally went though the verses word by word discussing what Daniel may have meant by the certain Hebrew word or how it is to be applied - literally, figuratively, symbolically, etc. But what I quickly discovered, was that too many had different opinions and interpretations.... absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST OF THE DIFFICULT VERSES IN DANIEL. Somebody had to be very wrong here... and I had no idea who was right.  I decided to use their interpretations (both sides) and try to determine the correct interpretati0n, regardless of what side of the fence it fell... and so many times, by driving down the middle of the road reading and studying their respective  interpretations, I found they were both very wrong on so many of the prohetic verses in Daniel. And after going through the 12 chapters, a million times and then began to write down my thoughts, it became clear (only through the grace of God), that I learned the pattern that would be / could be found in Daniel that was NOT being honored or applied in both sides of the camps. Here are the 3 major concerns:

1) One camp, call them preterists, I call them historicists (does not have to agree with the general term used among scholars as "preterists," will attempt to match and confirm their interpretations using a histocial approach - how well can they match and confirm the actors and events to our history books. Thus, most of Daniel is thought to have been fulfilled even though they have ignored so many verses in Daniel because they cannot find a match within our history books.  The other camp, will call them futurists, also will recognize the 4 physical kingdoms found in our history books, and rightfully so. but in the latter chapters of Daniel, they contend that most of Daniel speaks about future events - most, if not all are thrown some 2000 years after the cross. They can not be challenged because their wild interpretations have still not come about... but they are adamant they understand what will take place among todays nations and powers.... all made up! Sorry if I offend anyone but that is only what you have read and been told and to be candid, if you are not a preterist, then they are the only ones that have attempted to understand Daniel as it MIGHT take place in the still future... They are just reading, accepting these scholarly papers and interpretations... it does make sense ....but not correct.

Consequently, these two approaches are flawed.

2) the next significant error is thinking and teating the verses in Daniel - in all the chapters, as though the next verse is speaking in a chronological manner. A  perfect example of this is in chapter 8. The 4 generals come after Alexander, so what must follow are those actors and events like AE, or the Ptolemy's, the Seleucid's, or Cleopatra, etc., and all the battles for supremency that come after Alexander... This is all found within that "Historical" approach. But God is not interested in simply recounting our events in history. He will use only those 4 kingdoms  that He has selected to reveal His plan of salvation and restoration for the Jews and as a result of the cross, the Gentiles. Daneil is NOT written in chronological order. There are two sections in almost every chapter: There is a "dream like sequence of verses" that identify the "big picture" or a summary of what will be revealed or discussed in that chapter. Then, there is a series of verses that can be labeled as "interpretation sequence of verses." In these verses, Daniel records the details of what will occur WITHIN AND BETWEEN the "dream sequence verses."  Thus, the later verses in each chapter illuminate the actors and events within the "summary like" verses (dream sequence verses). 

The dream sequence verses may be matched to those found in our history books, but the interpretation sequence verses will not --- they are not new actors or events that come after those found in the dream sequence verses, and thus, they could not possible be found in again in our history books.

 

3) the third major error is that both camps will claim their approch - the preterist or the futurist view is correct... however, in addition to the two errors mentioned above, they both almost completely ignore that the Book of Daniel is a messianic prophetic book and the story is not one of the 4 kingdoms, the kings or their conflicts (whether during the earlier times before Christ or the yet to occur conflicts in the future), rather the storyline is all about the coming Messiah in the first century, His setting up  His church, His fulfilling the 6 requirements given to HIm by His Father (9:24) and His overall plan to restore the Jews and His city after their return from Babylon and of course, mankind (both Jew and Gentile) back to the Garden to be with Him again. That is what Daniel is all about... it is not a history book.... so much of the verses in Daniel speak to this - to the Messiah, His church and those who will come after the cross who will war against Him, His Word and His people... that is specifically what Chapter 11 is ALL about. Verses 11:1-4 will put the two inner kingdoms in the rear view mirroer and 11:5 begins with pagan Rome.

 

An  example of the dream v. interpretation sequence verses can be found in Chapter 8 and speaks directly to your interpretation and the issue pretaining to how the verses in Daniel are not in chronological order.

Verses 8:8-9 (are both dream sequence verses),

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

This is the big picture verse that tells us the one horned animal, who represents Alexander, will be broken and then will be replaced by his 4 generals - "towards the four winds of heaven." 

Thus, these 4 generals are not kingdoms mentioned in Chapter 4 by God, but are 4 "notable ones" (not horns) that are simply being thrown out into the chaos, turmoil and instability of the post Alexander period. They are mentioned because they represent the "hard close" of the 3rd kingdom. They are mentioned but have no God given mission within His plan of salvation. This mentioning tells us to now look for the coming of the 4th and final kingdom. There is no space / place / gap / etc., for any actor or event to be brought into His Word except to discuss the 4th kingdom.

 

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel).

And this next verse, which EVERYONE treats as the "one" that came forth (little horn) will come directly out of one of the 4 generals (notable ones). But it is only because they are assuming a historical view and look to our history books to find the actors and events that are found in the next chapter of  our history books. But that is not how we should look at this.

God purposefully has provided the symbol of the "horn" or power that we should focus on... not the kingdoms... hence, the different use of animals. After the 3rd kingdom is gone (after the 4 generals are mentioned), we are to look for the 4th kingdom only. And that can and will be identified as the "little horn." There are no other "horns" after Alexander but the little horn. Not even pagan Rome in this chapter is discussed...

It will be in the "latter part of their kingdom" when the little horn will come to power. In 7:11, pagan Rome is slain and its body is destoryed and within the later part of their kingdom (pagan Rome kingdom or the 4th kingdom) the little horn would "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. He would begin his reign over the "divided" kingdom of papal Rome.

Now, all of this above is within the summary section or the dream sequence section of Chapter 8... This is what is going to happen in the big picture.... now we can move onto the interpretation sequence verses that you provided near the end of Chapter 8.

 

Interpretation sequence verses that provide the details of the above verses,

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Now, Gabriel is telling us the same 4 generals will stand up or be given the 4 territories of the partitioned Greek Empire. They do not come forth as a result of THEIR power, because it was God who called out only 4 kingdoms from the sea... these 4 did not come out of the sea but it was God who had given them their power after Alexander (but He did not symbolize them with a "horn").

 

23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here Daniel is referring to the "one who will come out of ONE OF THEM" and be exceeding great. This is the one mentioned in 8:9 who will  come "out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down

 

The interpretation sequence verss in 23 -25 refer directly back to 9-11. The "little horn"  is once again being discussed in the interpretations sequence verses.  He is the one that will go towards the south, the east and the Glorious or pleasant land (Israel... despite the differtent interpretations). HOWEVER, the "Glorious land" IS NOT REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL LAND OF ISRAEL. Because when the little horn (papacy) comes to full power sitting atop the 4th beast kingdom (papal Rome) it will be some 400 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, the walls, and streets, and everything in 70AD. This is not talking about the little horns attacking Israel but it is symbolically referring  to heaven itself where the little horn claims divinity and equality with God and contends he is infallible, can forgive sin, changes God's laws, and so much more. All of this is found in Daniel - Chapters 8,9 11 and 12. 

 

Roy, as I had mentioned earlier, it is literally impossible to try and address each and every prophetic verse in Daniel where it has been previously interpreted in a purely historical or futurist manner or a combination of the two. Again, it took me 5 years to unpack this.... and only by the grace of God did He allow me to see the 3 primary reasons mentioned above that prevented His prophecies in Daniel to be revealed. It certainly had nothing to do with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Consequently, I had to reconcile today's accepted interpretations to either or both to  the futurist or the preterist approach or sometimes both.  It can not be done piecemeal like we are attempting.....

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

While there is much symbolic imagery in the prophecies of the messengers who gave these prophecies to Daniel, they ARE EXPLAINED in detail! And, history books will CONFIRM that the prophecies were indeed FULFILLED!

There are a few prophecies in Daniel that have not yet been fulfilled. HOWEVER, by and large, most HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! And, as I've said before, they may NOT be re-used! To envision they taught more than the reason they were given is to allow one's imagination to run away with him! It's ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES what God did NOT say through His messengers, such as Gabriel!

Two small things here that I need to address: First, "JeWrusalem" is unnecessary. The two words "Yhudiy" and "Yerushalayim" are NOT related; they only have the "yod" in common. So, this is just ... cute, and has no business in Daniel or in any other part of the Bible.

Second, there was a second Temple built by Nechemyahuw (Nehemiah) and later sanctified by Ezra the priest. This fulfilled the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11-12 and 29:10. THIS was "the restoration from the complete destruction by the Babylonians." Those who would, could return and rebuild the city and the nation (while still under the rulership of the Medo-Persian empire). 

I agree with this, EXCEPT in the order of the 3.5 years (the last half of the seventieth Seven of years) and His return. The 3.5 years are the SECOND offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, which occurs AFTER the King has returned. The first 3.5 years of the seventieth Seven was that time period from Yeeshuwa`s baptism to His pronouncement of the desolation of the Jews and Jerusalem in Matthew 23:38. This was when YEESHUWA` ("JESUS") HIMSELF PUT the "gap" in this prophecy. There is no Kingdom without the presence of the King! That's why even today Israel still has a "Prime Minister," a STEWARD of the realm for the King when He returns (or as they believe, will come for the first time, not acknowledging that Yeeshuwa` was the Messiah promised to come). We should NOT be anticipating any significant length of time before the Messiah returns.

Oh no.  If you look at the 70 weeks of years prophecy, you will find there are two separate elements that must be restored as it was before the destruction by Babylon:

 

1) God woulde specifically carve out the time period and those elements that will be restored BEFORE the start of the 70th week. And He would give this assignment to His people. It was their responsiblity to restore all the physical elements back in Jerusalem - the city, the walls, the streets, the Temple and the Sanctuary. Also, it was their responsibility to restore all the feast days, the ceremonies, the Sabbatical cycles, etc. EVERYTHING MUST BE FULLY RESTORED BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70TH WEEK. And God  will give Jesus the time (last week) to complete or fulfill His mission which not only included the 6 elements in 9:24, but He establishe His church and would symbolize the restoration of the last piece of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant that was the first piece of furniture taken away by Jeremiah. Everything was restored in the reverse order they were taken or destroyed.

 

This means that both the Jews and Jesus were 100% successful in fulfilling their God given mission within the time periods they were carved out of the prophecy. There was nothing left to complete or to do by either party at the time of the cross.

The only unfilled event that was not closed out was the 4th Great and final Sabbatial cyles that was to end 3.5 years after the cross. But because of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah, the counting of the Sabbatical cycle stopped at the time of the cross. Consequently, there are still 3.5 years for the Jews to return to their Messiah before it can be fulfilled. And this will be accomplished near the end of time when they will have their Damascus experience and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus for the final 3.5 years.

Again, the 70 weeks of years prohecy is over... everything that was to take place during the 70 weeks took place - including the prophecy of the Messiah being cut off. But  God purposefully and willingly accepted the cross exactly in the "midst of the week" to fulfill the prophecy and His salvation for mankind. 

Jesus did not cause the "gap"... this was always within His plan of salvation since the beginning of the world. He was simply telling Matthew what would happen.. When Jesus returned to His Father, His sacrifice was accepted and He cleansed the heavenly Sanctuary. He would be given dominon over everything, but He structured the timing of the cross  in such a manner that there would be a 2000 year space between His first and second coming so the Gentiles might be grafted in....

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Are you so sure? The history books are VERIFICATION of the prophecies that have already been fulfilled. This is PROOF that the rest of the prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled SHALL come to pass, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN! That's the TRUE purpose of the histories compiled by human beings (even if the writers didn't understand it when they were writing)! Why do you think that God allows such manuscripts to survive the ravages of time? Sure, they're fallible and flawed, but they are human records of things that happened in the past. Even when recorded by one's enemies with a negative slant, as far as their commentary on the past may be, they still record certain events and VERIFY that they did indeed happen!

I am sure. Again. did the Jews look for history books to confirm or try and understand the prophecies in Daniel or any other book? Of course not. Daniel is more than capable of interpreting Daniel without any help from our history books. If fact, by contending that Chapter 11 speaks to those historical figures that came after the time of Alexander and before pagan Rome proves the history books belong in the history section of the library and we need no other book but Daniel....

Our interpretations on Daniel (today's accepted interpretations) do not offer any level of proof or validation we should access our history books when interpreting the Word of God... it simply means we are inserting our history into His verses.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There are, for instance, some newspapers that have a liberal slant, such as the New York Times, and others that have a more conservative slant, such as the Chicago Tribune. But, a GOOD newspaper is going to report the facts, preferably without bias, and reserve biased reports or takes on the news for the editorial column. Many news sources today, particularly as seen on T.V., don't know how to separate their bias from the news. They've lost that journalistic integrity, allowing the audience to make up their own minds about what they see in the report.

History books can be the same way! One must read "between the lines" to find the actual facts of what happened without the bias of the historian. It takes a little work, but it can be done, especially if there are more than just one historian of an event or period.

You said, "I have no idea what you mean here..."

Well, I had said,

"Prophecies are FUTURE HISTORY told in advance! However, we've not been there, yet, in the timeline. Therefore, there are no human accounts against which to check! Thus, we can make NO hard-and-fast statements outside of what the Scriptures actually say! 

"HOWEVER, we DO move on through the timeline, one day at a time, and those prophecies come true when God means for them to come true. He fulfills His prophecies JUST AS THEY WERE PREDICTED TO HAPPEN! When they happen, human beings may notice and will record it in human history. It's up to us to keep abreast of the changes in human history to notice the fulfillment of God's Word!

"And - take note of this part and mark it well in your mind - when a prophecy has been fulfilled, CHECK IT OFF AS "FULFILLED!" Prophecies are NOT MEANT TO BE RE-USED! When, they ARE re-used, they are frequently taken WRONGLY!"

I agree... but we have two issues: one is that most of the prophecies in Daniel have indeed been fulfilled. However, they have not been fulfilled in the manner that we find in "today's accepted interpretations." Secondly, most of Daniel does speak to the time up to around 500 AD - when the little horn comes to power. There is NO detail that Daniel gives us regarding the long period when the little horn takes  power and His second coming... Certainly, He speaks to the things this little horn will do over the coming 1500 years and Chapter 12 does speak to the end times in very broad manner, but most of Daniel has been fulfilled. Just not in the way people contend..

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What I mean is this: Think of seeing time from outside of time as just another dimension. We can do this to a limited degree by taking "stop-action photography" of  a ball bouncing (as in a physics experiment) or of a person walking across a room. Interposing all these images gives us a "line" of the movement within a room. Expand that line over the history of mankind in all the years recorded. That is the "timeline."

We can do this for the past into the present, but we are IN the present, as time is unfolding. We cannot see into the future what exactly will happen, although human predictions of what MIGHT happen can be made from past experiences. This is the best we can do! This is how weathermen work. "The past is the key to the future."

Prophecies from God give us SNAPSHOTS of the future that hasn't happened, yet, at the time when the prophecies were given. Those snapshots are woven into the fabric of time as time catches up to the prophecy events and periods. Once time has gone past the snapshots of prophecy, those prophecies are FULFILLED, and are then recorded as events and periods within the histories that capture them.

The time of the Babylon empire is now in the past; therefore, the prophecy regarding the "head of gold," and the prophecy of the "lion with two wings" are now in the past, as well. Stamp them "FULFILLED."

Agree.. Babylon is behind us/

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The time of the Medo-Persian empire is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "arms and chest of silver," the prophecy of the "bear with 3 ribs in its mouth," and the prophecy of the "ram with two horns" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

I agree... long gone.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The time of the Macedonian/Grecian empire under Alexander the Great is now in the past; therefore the prophecy regarding the "belly and thighs of brass," the prophecy of the "leopard with four wings,"and the prophecy of the "he goat with one horn" are also now in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

I agree.. also  long gone.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The time of the four empires that grew out of Alexander's empire is also now in the past; therfore the prophecy regarding the "four heads of the leopard" and the prophecy regarding the "four horns that stood up after the great horn of the he goat was broken," are both in the past. Mark them "FULFILLED."

I again agree, however, they were not 4 horns, but 4 notable or conspicuous ones and they definitely symbolized the closing out of the 3rd kingdom. They did not have or should be referred to in any manner as 4 Empires... they were thrown out into the troubling times after Alexander... and, yes, two of the four generals do what generals do when the king dies.... they wanted supremency... but they have nothing to do with the 3rd or 4th kingdoms that God called out of the sea. They only belong in our history books.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome.... 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Move these from "predictions about the future" to "history."

Regarding my statement, "People are GREAT with their imaginations and conjectures, but we don't KNOW that our opinions are correct! We CAN'T know! God has hidden the future from us ON PURPOSE! Instead, we are to TRUST HIM about the future!" 

It is confusing what you are writing here.. If you do not know if people's opinions are conjecture or not, how can you possibly tell who has the correct interpretation?

I believe I may answer this for you, and if I am wrong, please correct me... the one you believe has the correct interpretation and are NOT using their imagination are the ones that are applying the "historical" approach. But it that is the case, then, assuming the futurist camp is greater in number than the pure historicists, there are at least / no less than 50 % of today's scholars, academics, theologians that have provided their "accepted interpretations" are using their imagination and conjecture.

And also, for those important verses in Daniel that clearly do speak  to the historical events before the time of Christ, how do you determine whose historical interpretations are correct? I can assue you we all agree of the 4 kingdoms but not what Daniel is trying to tell us within those 4 kingdoms....

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

and 

Isaiah 46:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Therefore, God has HIDDEN THE FUTURE from us! ONLY what He has revealed through prophecy can be known, UNTIL the future becomes the present and then the past, and those prophecies are fulfilled and recorded as events and periods in history!

I agree... but the Book of Daniel has always been "available" for anyone to interpret it  the way God wrote it. But everyone attempts to interpret it as though it is a history book and must be confirmed and supported by what man writes in his history books...

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No they can't! The historical event may have indeed taken place and  be recorded in our history books, but that does not mean the verses in Daniel are speaking about THOSE HISTORICAL EVENTS. Example: everyone will agree the 4 generals and the Ptolemy's and the Seleucids' came after Alexander. There were many years of finding among the different factions for power and supremency. Now, they occurred, they can be found in many, many history books .... BUT THEY DO NOT SPEAK TO THE EVENTS AND ACTORS IN CHAPTER 11 OF DANIEL - THAT IS, UNLESS YOU  WANT THEM TO... Then definitely happened in our history, but they are not to be ascribed to the verses in Chapter 11.

No they can't! The historical event may have indeed taken place and  be recorded in our history books, but that does not mean the verses in Daniel are speaking about THOSE HISTORICAL EVENTS. Example: everyone will agree the 4 generals and the Ptolemy's and the Seleucids' came after Alexander. There were many years of finding among the different factions for power and supremency. Now, they occurred, they can be found in many, many history books .... BUT THEY DO NOT SPEAK TO THE EVENTS AND ACTORS IN CHAPTER 11 OF DANIEL - THAT IS, UNLESS YOU  WANT THEM TO... Then definitely happened in our history, but they are not to be ascribed to the verses in Chapter 11.

 

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Something to consider is that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 IS DIFFERENT THAN the "little horn" of Daniel 7! In Daniel 8, the little horn (Antiochus IV) comes out of one of the four horns ("Seleucus") that replace the great horn, "Alexander the Great," in the "he goat" image.

No. they are one and the same and AE has no place in Daniel.....

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In Daniel 7, the "little horn" there comes among the TEN horns of the FOURTH beast, uprooting three of the ten horns in the process, who was also represented as the "legs of iron" in Daniel 2. It is believed that this FOURTH beast, the legs of iron, represents the ROMAN Empire, initially under Caesar Augustus. The question becomes, "what are the ten horns?" In the other beasts, they were the the notable kings of that kingdom/empire. But, there have been SEVENTY emperors in Rome, starting with Caesar Augustus and ending with Romulus Augustus.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome but in 7:11, Daniel tells us it will be slain and its body destroyed... Now, that certainly can be  found in our history books. Between 400 and 500 AD, pagan Rome would soon be gone... No more! But it would be replace by the little horn who came out AMONG the 10 horns.  

Tell me, who are the 10 horns, when did they begin to come up out of pagan Rome. Are they the same as the 10 toes? What happened to them?  If you want to continue to follow your history books, your should be able to identify them, because they have been there before Christ, after Christ and will continue until the end of time... meaning, they can not arrive onto the scene after the little horn takes power around 500 AD and will continue until the end until he is destroyed without human hands. The 10 horns or kings can not arise after 500 AD.... they are already in place. So, historically, we can see them in our history books but we fail to identify them.... that is all.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

But, if one suspects the Roman Catholic Church, there have been TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SIX (or TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-SEVEN, if one includes Stephen II) popes!

So who are the 10 horns + 1 little horn - 3 horns uprooted = 8 horns?

Nope, I asked you this question earlier I believe. If you honor the historical approach, you should be able to identify them. But you can't because the historical approach doesn't work. So what does just about everyone contend --- well, we can not identify them in our history books, so they must not yet be on the earth .. they must come some 2000 years in the future - and there is no shortage of interpretations on who this 10 are.... everywhere from Turkey, the EU, the Islamic nations, and many, many other claims....

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This much could indeed be talking about a future "little horn," for no such person has been shown to exist in human history.

Walvoord talks about a "ten-nation confederacy," but gives no positive proof of such a thing existing today, although he SURMISES a ten-nation confederacy based upon the European Commerce, but then the questions is, WHICH of the nations of Europe would be included? And, this is from an article at WWW.Walvoord.com written within 25 years ago! What has changed since then?

I agree, but once again, Walvoord is so like the many others of his time, those still living today and those that came before him after the reformation - he is looking at Daniel though the eyes of an historicist and when he can not find them in his history books, they must be in the future....  no, that is not right... 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There are FIFTY nations in Europe, 44 of them with their capitols in Europe!

The European Union consists of 27 nations, with the possibility of the Ukraine being a 28th member (to keep it out of Russian hands).

So NONE of this sounds like a "ten-nation confederacy!"

The little horn has been labeled as such since he represents the "opposer" to everything about God's kingdom on earth. He indeed represents the papacy and his position and title and authority will continue for the next 1500 years.. Again, Daniel is largely symbolic and God is not going to list our all the popes during the 1500 years. Their attack on everything God will continue regardless of the name his parents gave him.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, in the number of the HEADS of the animals. The four heads of the 4-winged Leopard, for instance, were the four PARTS of the Macedonian/Grecian Empire: Brainly.com tells us, "The four kingdoms born out of Alexander's empire's demise were the Ptolemaic, Seleucid, Antigonid, and Attalid kingdoms, each founded by one of Alexander's generals or their successors."

No, they represented the 4 generals... they are found in Chapter 7 as the four heads in Chapter 7, they are the four notable onesi n Chapter 8:22 - but they were not symbolized as 4 horns.....  Chapter 8 focuses on the "horns" or powers not the kingdoms or kings.

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't know, yet. It's ASSUMED that this 4th kingdom was pagan Rome, i.e., the Roman Empire, and that would seem to be true, but that is NOT revealed by the messengers ("angels").

Well, I just think you're LIMITING yourself to a view of Daniel that is less than was given. Prophecies are MEANT to be understood as they are fulfilled, and history books record their fulfillment.

Well, to be completely candid, I believe it is you who have placed a historical fence around Daniel. But when the actual historical events SHOULD BE FOUND WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you won't consider them and let them in. When the actual historical events are WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you allow for no interpretation but your own (and by your own I respecrfully mean those to "today's interpretations" within the preterist view).

 

Roy, this is simply way to complicated to continue this piecemeal... I can assure you that God has put together a very consistent storyline in Daniel where the earlier chapters and verses support the latter chapters and verses and vice versa ..... they  all speak as one continuous messianic prophecy that runs through the 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are not the story....It is all about the Messiah and His plan of salvation for mankind - both Jew and Gentile.

 

Best wishes, Charlie

 

 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Roy, I am alittle sick --- I had completed most of my response to you but accidentily hit the wrong button and lost it all..... I will have to start again from scratch this evening.... darn it..... Charlie

Shalom, Charlie.

Sorry to hear it. Hope and pray you'll feel better.

I do it once in a while myself. I've found that sometimes I can change pages and come back to the previous page, go down to the edit screen at the bottom of the page and click in it and hit "Keep Restored Contents" in the bottom right corner of the window, and I'll get it back, but that doesn't always work, either.

Sometimes, it happens if I go to look at what's new under "Notifications"; so, I'll often ignore the new notifications until I finish a post and hit "Submit Reply." Nobody's perfect, except God, of course.

If I've been working on a post for a while and the power flickers and I lock up, if what I've been typing is still on the page, I MAY be able to highlight it all and copy it and paste it to a TextEdit new page (I'm using an Apple MacBook Pro) and protect what I've been working on until I'm sure I'm back up and running. Then, I'll start a new post (if I have to) and copy it back in. I do all that, though, ONLY if it's important enough and I've been working on a long and/or detailed post.

If none of this works, "have to re-invent the wheel."

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

Okay, we've had a little distraction about the book of Daniel for a while; we need to get back to the topic at hand: The Resurrection.

Whatever the details of WHEN our Lord Yeeshuwa`, the Anointed of God to be Israel's King, returns, He SHALL return, and when He does, all those who belong to Him shall be resurrected; that is, brought back to life. (1 Corinthians 15:23). That promise is NOT extended to those who are called and considered the "Unjust."

As I think I've said before, the Resurrection takes an act of CREATION, because bodies that have died have begun to decay and may already be beyond recognition as a human body. Such is also true for those who have been cremated, or eaten by fish or animals and other scavengers, especially the microscopic kind. God KNOWS the chemical make-up of each and every one of us! He knows us FAR MORE INTIMATELY than any doctor who looks at MRIs, X-rays, or blood work! He knows our frame at the microscopic level!

Psalm 139:13-16 (KJV)

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.

Seeing time as just another dimension, He can know when we were at our best, and improve even upon that, when He transforms us into a body like that of His Son! I hesitate to use the word "spiritual" because it is so abused and misused as to be practically meaningless, but I will say that He will create us to be a "sooma pneumatikon," "an air-blowing (like the wind) body," as opposed to a "sooma psuchikon," or "an air-breathing body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).

1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 35-49 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "he hath put all things under his feet." (Psalm 8:6) {But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" (God) is excepted, which did "put all things under him (the Messiah)."} 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
.....

35 But some [man] will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (made alive), except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but
[there is] one [kind of] flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
[and] another of birds.

40 [There are] also celestial bodies (bodies above the skies),
and bodies terrestrial (bodies upon the ground):

but the glory of the celestial (above the skies) [is] one,
and the [glory] of the terrestrial (upon the ground) [is] another.

41 [There is] one glory of the sun,
and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The first man (Adam) was made a living soul" (Genesis 2:7);

the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit (a life-giving wind).

46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual (air-blowing), but that which is natural (air-breathing); and afterward that which is spiritual (air-blowing).
47 The first man [is] of the earth (from the ground), earthy (dust-like):
the second man [is] the Lord from heaven (from the sky).
48 As [is] the earthy (dust-like), such [are] they also that are earthy (dust-like):
and as [is] the heavenly (from above the sky), such [are] they also that are heavenly (from above the sky).
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (dust-like),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (above the sky).

Our jobs will be to HELP the Messiah reign in all the countries which will become vassal nations to His Kingdom. We will quite literally "live and reign WITH Him!" So, it would be a good idea to start learning what it means to be a leader and a ruler, especially under His leadership! He shall be a "King of kings" - a "King OVER other kings," where those kings are His subjects! Those who can learn to reign as He does, escalating matters too hard for us to those above us, and ultimately to the King of kings Himself, will be given positions comparable to our abilities. And, with leaders like Deborah, Esther, and Golda Meir, this is NOT limited to the male gender!

[christsavedme]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:09 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, to one and all! I'm hoping that this topic will encourage and embolden all of you who know the LORD and His Messiah, His Christ!

Many songs today seem to make an analogy of death and resurrection in one's sufferings and pain and coming to a joyful or peaceful resolution, but I feel that they may be misleading many who have "given up" on the Messiah's return! Resurrection is a PROMISED EVENT!

Let's start with Yeeshuwa`s ("Jesus'") own words in John 5:

John 5:16-30 (KJV, quotations and coloring are mine)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God!

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

(Yeeshuwa` said more, but I've already quoted too much for some, single-verse Christians to read.)

Now, look at Paul's words in what I call the "Resurrection chapter of the Bible," 1 Corinthians 15:

Speaking of resurrections, he said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV, quotations and coloring are mine)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 23 But every man (person) in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (again, singular);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (YHWH GOD the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest [clear; obvious] that "he" is excepted, which "did put all things under him".)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, let's start with this simple fact: God the Father has granted for Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") to be the MASTER OF LIFE! HE was given the authority and the power to raise EVERYONE back to life again, whether in the FIRST general resurrection (of those who belong to the Messiah) or in the SECOND general resurrection (of those who are the unjust standing before the Great White Throne for judgment and sentencing)!

As the Scriptures tell us, Christ is "the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25). His victory over death is not just a metaphor or a comforting idea, but a concrete reality that will one day be fully realized for all of God's children. 

Let us take heart in knowing that our Lord has conquered death and that He holds the keys to life eternal. As we face the challenges and sufferings of this world, we can do so with courage and hope, knowing that these trials are temporary and that a glorious future awaits us.

Remember, that our God is a God of life, not death. He desires that all should come to know Him and experience the fullness of life that He offers. Let us therefore live each day in joyful anticipation of Christ's return, sharing His love and message of hope with all we encounter.

May we always keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), trusting in His promises and living in a way that reflects our hope in the resurrection. Let us encourage one another with these truths, building each other up in faith and love.
 

[Neighbor]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

'nough said.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone!

I hope this will be the most useful and exciting post in this topic! Let's get into the specifics about Ezekiel 37!

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, [there were] very many in the open valley; and, lo, [they were] very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but [there was] no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say,

"'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.'

12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it]," saith the LORD.'"

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions:' then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions': 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 "And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,

"'Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?'

19 "Say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand."' 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 "And say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 "'"And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."'"

I try to be very careful in the quotation marks and in the coloring I use, and again, I use GREEN for narration, ROYAL PURPLE for the words of God, RED for the words of the Messiah, and BLUE for the words of anyone else. It's not a perfect system, but I hope to help readers to see who said what.

This is NOT "figurative speech" or some type of analogy about something else; this is a PROPHECY about the LITERAL RESURRECTION that shall occur when the Messiah returns (or as the Jews today think, when He comes the first time)!

Now, notice how this will be accomplished:

First, we read, "I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live" and "the bones came together, bone to his bone." Some of the bones may have to be "rebuilt," so to speak. The soft tissue of marrow within the bones must be regenerated and the bone's integrity must be renewed. Any broken bones must be mended, and they will consist of LIVING bone and marrow tissue!

Second, "I will lay sinews upon you" the "sinews" (including the tendons and the joints of cartilage) will be attached to the bones; "the sinews and the flesh came up upon them." This will give the body the structural integrity it needs to be able to move as before. This is considered a "soft tissue"; so, these will have to be re-created from the dirt below them.

Third, "will bring up flesh upon you," that is the "muscles," will be laid upon the bones and attached to the sinews, providing the ability to move the bones and sinews as the person desires to move. Again, this also will need to be created from the earth, and they will have to be attached to the skeletal structure. So, the complete muscular structure of the human body will also be created and attached.

Fourth, "and cover you with skin" and "the skin covered them above." The integumentary system will come upon the whole body structure, giving the body its form and face and will include the hair follicles, and hair may grow at an accelerated rate, although it MAY NOT be instantaneous. 

Finally, the WIND (Hebrew: הָרוּחַ = "haaruwach" = "the-wind" or "the-Spirit," is commissioned to give the bodies formed their "breath." "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live." The wind was told to come from the four winds (in the four different compass directions) and CONVERGE on this group of bodies and "puff" into them, "inflating" them (Hebrew: וּפְחִי = "uwfchiy" from נָפַח = "naafach" = "to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, ...)") with air!

The full message Ychezk'eel was supposed to deliver to the Wind (the Spirit) was, "כֹּה־אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה מֵאַרְבַּע רוּחוֹת בֹּאִי הָרוּחַ וּפְחִי בַּהֲרוּגִים הָאֵלֶּה וְיִחְיוּ׃" or "Koh-'aamar 'Adonay YHWH Mee'arba` ruwchowt bo'iy haaRuwach uwfchiy baharuwgiym haa'eeleh vyichyuw:" It translates to English word-for-word as "Thus-says my-Lord YHWH, 'From-the-four winds, come, the-Wind, and-puff/inflate in-the-slain-ones these-ones and-they-may-live.'"

And, that's just the beginning of this chapter! This is ALL LITERAL! There's no reason to believe otherwise.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, christsavedme said:

As the Scriptures tell us, Christ is "the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25). His victory over death is not just a metaphor or a comforting idea, but a concrete reality that will one day be fully realized for all of God's children. 

Let us take heart in knowing that our Lord has conquered death and that He holds the keys to life eternal. As we face the challenges and sufferings of this world, we can do so with courage and hope, knowing that these trials are temporary and that a glorious future awaits us.

Remember, that our God is a God of life, not death. He desires that all should come to know Him and experience the fullness of life that He offers. Let us therefore live each day in joyful anticipation of Christ's return, sharing His love and message of hope with all we encounter.

May we always keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), trusting in His promises and living in a way that reflects our hope in the resurrection. Let us encourage one another with these truths, building each other up in faith and love.
 

Shalom, @christsavedme.

I mostly agree with you; however, regarding your statement, "He desires that all should come to know Him and experience the fullness of life that He offers," this appears to be close to a quotation from 2 Peter 3:9. If so, one shouldn't forget the very next verse:

2 Peter 3:9-10 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 BUT the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up!

So, don't make the mistake of thinking that God will ALWAYS be longsuffering! He has a LIMIT to His grace! If one pushes Him beyond that limit, He SHALL judge that individual, and He SHALL judge the world!

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Neighbor said:

'nough said.

Shalom, @Neighbor.

Perhaps, but how many know the difference between a "sooma psuchikon" (σῶμα ψυχικόν) and a "sooma pneumatikon (σῶμα πνευματικόν)?" These phrases have been translated as "a natural body" and a "spiritual body," but one should investigate this a little deeper. These two words are closely related to "psuchee" and "pneuma," respectively. "Sooma" [using an "oo" for the omega (ῶ) and an "o" for the omicron (ό)] means "a body." Here are Strong's entries in the Dictionary of the New Testament Greek Language:

G5591 ψυχικός psuchikos or psychikós, psoo-khee-kos'; from G5590; sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature):
—natural, sensual.

G5590 ψυχή psuchee or psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms (G5590, G4151 and G2222) thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):
—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

G5594 ψύχω psuchoo or psýchō, psoo'-kho; a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from G4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of G109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
—wax cold.

G4152 πνευματικός pneumatikos or pneumatikós, pnyoo-mat-ik-os'; from G4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (dæmoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:
—spiritual. Compare G5591.—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma or pneûma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G4154 πνέω pneoo or pnéō, pneh'-o; a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
—blow. Compare G5594.

G2222 ζωή zooee or zōḗ, dzo-ay'; from G2198; life (literally or figuratively):
—life(-time). Compare G5590.

G2198 ζάω zaoo or záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

And, here are the Hebrew terms which "exactly correspond respectively":

H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nefesh or nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (×in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, ×would have it.

H5314 נָפַשׁ naafash or nâphash, naw-fash'; a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
—(be) refresh selves (-ed).

H7307 רוּחַ ruwach or rûwach, roo'-akh; from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
—air, anger, blast, breath, × cool, courage, mind, ×quarter, × side, spirit(-ual), tempest, × vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

H7306 רוּחַ ruwach or rûwach, roo-akh'; a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
—accept, smell, × touch, make of quick understanding.

 H2416 חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:
— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

H2421 חָיָה chaayaah or châyâh, khaw-yaw'; a primitive root (compare H2331, H2421); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive:
—keep (leave, make) alive, × certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (× God) save (alive, life, lives), × surely, be whole.

In summary, 

Hebrew: ruwach (verb) = Greek: pneoo = English: to blow; to blast air
Hebrew: ruwach (noun) = Greek: pneuma = English: wind; "spirit"
Hebrew: naafash (verb) = Greek: psuchoo = English: to breathe
Hebrew: nefesh (noun) = Greek: psuchee = English: a breathing creature; "soul"
Hebrew: chaayaah (verb) = Greek: zaoo = English: to live
Hebrew: chay (noun) = Greek: zooee = English: life

These equivalences can be verified by simply looking up each occurrence of each word in the Bible and trying that definition in that verse to see how it can make sense in its context.

I was a bit of a "bulldog" in my high school days, "sinking my teeth" into the project and "not letting go" until it was finished, and I've done so.

I forgot to come to my conclusion!

Psuchikon (the neuter case of the adjective form of psuchee, psuchikos), means "air-breathing."

Pneumatikon (the neuter case of the adjective form of pneuma, pneumatikos) means "air-blowing (like a wind)!"

Edited August 8 by Retrobyter
to finish up