Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

[Retrobyter]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:31 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for your response. I can certainly understand how you are interpreting these difficult verses within Daniel. And since just about 100% of all the commentaries that have been "accepted," whether the scholars, academics or theologians have adopted a futurist or preterist interpretation, they not only can not agree among themselves but they are both looking at Daniel either in a purely historical manner or in a partially historical manner (first 4 or 6 chapters), and then begin to throw so much of the remaining chapters some 2000 years in the future. Both are incorrect. 

And that certainly sounds terrible since it is clear THEY are the well respected scholars, academics. theologians and truly brillant individuals, most of which have dedicated their lives to the study and interpretation of God's Word... in this case of course, Daniel.

Now, I AM NOT ONE THAT FITS OR BELONGS IN ANY ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIES.  PERIOD!!!!! But when I started this project over 5 years ago, the very first thing I did was to try and read and understand what THOSE FOLKS have already done with Daniel. They literally went though the verses word by word discussing what Daniel may have meant by the certain Hebrew word or how it is to be applied - literally, figuratively, symbolically, etc. But what I quickly discovered, was that too many had different opinions and interpretations.... absolutely no consensus of opinion on MOST OF THE DIFFICULT VERSES IN DANIEL. Somebody had to be very wrong here... and I had no idea who was right.  I decided to use their interpretations (both sides) and try to determine the correct interpretati0n, regardless of what side of the fence it fell... and so many times, by driving down the middle of the road reading and studying their respective  interpretations, I found they were both very wrong on so many of the prohetic verses in Daniel. And after going through the 12 chapters, a million times and then began to write down my thoughts, it became clear (only through the grace of God), that I learned the pattern that would be / could be found in Daniel that was NOT being honored or applied in both sides of the camps. Here are the 3 major concerns:

1) One camp, call them preterists, I call them historicists (does not have to agree with the general term used among scholars as "preterists," will attempt to match and confirm their interpretations using a histocial approach - how well can they match and confirm the actors and events to our history books. Thus, most of Daniel is thought to have been fulfilled even though they have ignored so many verses in Daniel because they cannot find a match within our history books.  The other camp, will call them futurists, also will recognize the 4 physical kingdoms found in our history books, and rightfully so. but in the latter chapters of Daniel, they contend that most of Daniel speaks about future events - most, if not all are thrown some 2000 years after the cross. They can not be challenged because their wild interpretations have still not come about... but they are adamant they understand what will take place among todays nations and powers.... all made up! Sorry if I offend anyone but that is only what you have read and been told and to be candid, if you are not a preterist, then they are the only ones that have attempted to understand Daniel as it MIGHT take place in the still future... They are just reading, accepting these scholarly papers and interpretations... it does make sense ....but not correct.

Consequently, these two approaches are flawed.

2) the next significant error is thinking and teating the verses in Daniel - in all the chapters, as though the next verse is speaking in a chronological manner. A  perfect example of this is in chapter 8. The 4 generals come after Alexander, so what must follow are those actors and events like AE, or the Ptolemy's, the Seleucid's, or Cleopatra, etc., and all the battles for supremency that come after Alexander... This is all found within that "Historical" approach. But God is not interested in simply recounting our events in history. He will use only those 4 kingdoms  that He has selected to reveal His plan of salvation and restoration for the Jews and as a result of the cross, the Gentiles. Daneil is NOT written in chronological order. There are two sections in almost every chapter: There is a "dream like sequence of verses" that identify the "big picture" or a summary of what will be revealed or discussed in that chapter. Then, there is a series of verses that can be labeled as "interpretation sequence of verses." In these verses, Daniel records the details of what will occur WITHIN AND BETWEEN the "dream sequence verses."  Thus, the later verses in each chapter illuminate the actors and events within the "summary like" verses (dream sequence verses). 

The dream sequence verses may be matched to those found in our history books, but the interpretation sequence verses will not --- they are not new actors or events that come after those found in the dream sequence verses, and thus, they could not possible be found in again in our history books.

3) the third major error is that both camps will claim their approch - the preterist or the futurist view is correct... however, in addition to the two errors mentioned above, they both almost completely ignore that the Book of Daniel is a messianic prophetic book and the story is not one of the 4 kingdoms, the kings or their conflicts (whether during the earlier times before Christ or the yet to occur conflicts in the future), rather the storyline is all about the coming Messiah in the first century, His setting up  His church, His fulfilling the 6 requirements given to HIm by His Father (9:24) and His overall plan to restore the Jews and His city after their return from Babylon and of course, mankind (both Jew and Gentile) back to the Garden to be with Him again. That is what Daniel is all about... it is not a history book.... so much of the verses in Daniel speak to this - to the Messiah, His church and those who will come after the cross who will war against Him, His Word and His people... that is specifically what Chapter 11 is ALL about. Verses 11:1-4 will put the two inner kingdoms in the rear view mirroer and 11:5 begins with pagan Rome.

An  example of the dream v. interpretation sequence verses can be found in Chapter 8 and speaks directly to your interpretation and the issue pretaining to how the verses in Daniel are not in chronological order.

Verses 8:8-9 (are both dream sequence verses),

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

This is the big picture verse that tells us the one horned animal, who represents Alexander, will be broken and then will be replaced by his 4 generals - "towards the four winds of heaven." 

Thus, these 4 generals are not kingdoms mentioned in Chapter 4 by God, but are 4 "notable ones" (not horns) that are simply being thrown out into the chaos, turmoil and instability of the post Alexander period. They are mentioned because they represent the "hard close" of the 3rd kingdom. They are mentioned but have no God given mission within His plan of salvation. This mentioning tells us to now look for the coming of the 4th and final kingdom. There is no space / place / gap / etc., for any actor or event to be brought into His Word except to discuss the 4th kingdom.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel).

And this next verse, which EVERYONE treats as the "one" that came forth (little horn) will come directly out of one of the 4 generals (notable ones). But it is only because they are assuming a historical view and look to our history books to find the actors and events that are found in the next chapter of  our history books. But that is not how we should look at this.

God purposefully has provided the symbol of the "horn" or power that we should focus on... not the kingdoms... hence, the different use of animals. After the 3rd kingdom is gone (after the 4 generals are mentioned), we are to look for the 4th kingdom only. And that can and will be identified as the "little horn." There are no other "horns" after Alexander but the little horn. Not even pagan Rome in this chapter is discussed...

It will be in the "latter part of their kingdom" when the little horn will come to power. In 7:11, pagan Rome is slain and its body is destoryed and within the later part of their kingdom (pagan Rome kingdom or the 4th kingdom) the little horn would "sit atop" the 4th kingdom beast. He would begin his reign over the "divided" kingdom of papal Rome.

Now, all of this above is within the summary section or the dream sequence section of Chapter 8... This is what is going to happen in the big picture.... now we can move onto the interpretation sequence verses that you provided near the end of Chapter 8.

Interpretation sequence verses that provide the details of the above verses,

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Now, Gabriel is telling us the same 4 generals will stand up or be given the 4 territories of the partitioned Greek Empire. They do not come forth as a result of THEIR power, because it was God who called out only 4 kingdoms from the sea... these 4 did not come out of the sea but it was God who had given them their power after Alexander (but He did not symbolize them with a "horn").

23 And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here Daniel is referring to the "one who will come out of ONE OF THEM" and be exceeding great. This is the one mentioned in 8:9 who will  come "out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land] (Israel). 10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down

The interpretation sequence verss in 23 -25 refer directly back to 9-11. The "little horn"  is once again being discussed in the interpretations sequence verses.  He is the one that will go towards the south, the east and the Glorious or pleasant land (Israel... despite the differtent interpretations). HOWEVER, the "Glorious land" IS NOT REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL LAND OF ISRAEL. Because when the little horn (papacy) comes to full power sitting atop the 4th beast kingdom (papal Rome) it will be some 400 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, the walls, and streets, and everything in 70AD. This is not talking about the little horns attacking Israel but it is symbolically referring  to heaven itself where the little horn claims divinity and equality with God and contends he is infallible, can forgive sin, changes God's laws, and so much more. All of this is found in Daniel - Chapters 8,9 11 and 12. 

Roy, as I had mentioned earlier, it is literally impossible to try and address each and every prophetic verse in Daniel where it has been previously interpreted in a purely historical or futurist manner or a combination of the two. Again, it took me 5 years to unpack this.... and only by the grace of God did He allow me to see the 3 primary reasons mentioned above that prevented His prophecies in Daniel to be revealed. It certainly had nothing to do with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Consequently, I had to reconcile today's accepted interpretations to either or both to  the futurist or the preterist approach or sometimes both.  It can not be done piecemeal like we are attempting.....

Oh no.  If you look at the 70 weeks of years prophecy, you will find there are two separate elements that must be restored as it was before the destruction by Babylon:

1) God woulde specifically carve out the time period and those elements that will be restored BEFORE the start of the 70th week. And He would give this assignment to His people. It was their responsiblity to restore all the physical elements back in Jerusalem - the city, the walls, the streets, the Temple and the Sanctuary. Also, it was their responsibility to restore all the feast days, the ceremonies, the Sabbatical cycles, etc. EVERYTHING MUST BE FULLY RESTORED BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70TH WEEK. And God  will give Jesus the time (last week) to complete or fulfill His mission which not only included the 6 elements in 9:24, but He establishe His church and would symbolize the restoration of the last piece of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant that was the first piece of furniture taken away by Jeremiah. Everything was restored in the reverse order they were taken or destroyed.

This means that both the Jews and Jesus were 100% successful in fulfilling their God given mission within the time periods they were carved out of the prophecy. There was nothing left to complete or to do by either party at the time of the cross.

The only unfilled event that was not closed out was the 4th Great and final Sabbatial cyles that was to end 3.5 years after the cross. But because of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah, the counting of the Sabbatical cycle stopped at the time of the cross. Consequently, there are still 3.5 years for the Jews to return to their Messiah before it can be fulfilled. And this will be accomplished near the end of time when they will have their Damascus experience and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus for the final 3.5 years.

Again, the 70 weeks of years prohecy is over... everything that was to take place during the 70 weeks took place - including the prophecy of the Messiah being cut off. But  God purposefully and willingly accepted the cross exactly in the "midst of the week" to fulfill the prophecy and His salvation for mankind. 

Jesus did not cause the "gap"... this was always within His plan of salvation since the beginning of the world. He was simply telling Matthew what would happen.. When Jesus returned to His Father, His sacrifice was accepted and He cleansed the heavenly Sanctuary. He would be given dominon over everything, but He structured the timing of the cross  in such a manner that there would be a 2000 year space between His first and second coming so the Gentiles might be grafted in....

I am sure. Again. did the Jews look for history books to confirm or try and understand the prophecies in Daniel or any other book? Of course not. Daniel is more than capable of interpreting Daniel without any help from our history books. If fact, by contending that Chapter 11 speaks to those historical figures that came after the time of Alexander and before pagan Rome proves the history books belong in the history section of the library and we need no other book but Daniel....

Our interpretations on Daniel (today's accepted interpretations) do not offer any level of proof or validation we should access our history books when interpreting the Word of God... it simply means we are inserting our history into His verses.

 

I agree... but we have two issues: one is that most of the prophecies in Daniel have indeed been fulfilled. However, they have not been fulfilled in the manner that we find in "today's accepted interpretations." Secondly, most of Daniel does speak to the time up to around 500 AD - when the little horn comes to power. There is NO detail that Daniel gives us regarding the long period when the little horn takes  power and His second coming... Certainly, He speaks to the things this little horn will do over the coming 1500 years and Chapter 12 does speak to the end times in very broad manner, but most of Daniel has been fulfilled. Just not in the way people contend..

Agree.. Babylon is behind us/

I agree... long gone.

I agree.. also  long gone.

I again agree, however, they were not 4 horns, but 4 notable or conspicuous ones and they definitely symbolized the closing out of the 3rd kingdom. They did not have or should be referred to in any manner as 4 Empires... they were thrown out into the troubling times after Alexander... and, yes, two of the four generals do what generals do when the king dies.... they wanted supremency... but they have nothing to do with the 3rd or 4th kingdoms that God called out of the sea. They only belong in our history books.

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome.... 

It is confusing what you are writing here.. If you do not know if people's opinions are conjecture or not, how can you possibly tell who has the correct interpretation?

I believe I may answer this for you, and if I am wrong, please correct me... the one you believe has the correct interpretation and are NOT using their imagination are the ones that are applying the "historical" approach. But it that is the case, then, assuming the futurist camp is greater in number than the pure historicists, there are at least / no less than 50 % of today's scholars, academics, theologians that have provided their "accepted interpretations" are using their imagination and conjecture.

And also, for those important verses in Daniel that clearly do speak  to the historical events before the time of Christ, how do you determine whose historical interpretations are correct? I can assue you we all agree of the 4 kingdoms but not what Daniel is trying to tell us within those 4 kingdoms....

I agree... but the Book of Daniel has always been "available" for anyone to interpret it  the way God wrote it. But everyone attempts to interpret it as though it is a history book and must be confirmed and supported by what man writes in his history books...

No they can't! The historical event may have indeed taken place and  be recorded in our history books, but that does not mean the verses in Daniel are speaking about THOSE HISTORICAL EVENTS. Example: everyone will agree the 4 generals and the Ptolemy's and the Seleucids' came after Alexander. There were many years of finding among the different factions for power and supremency. Now, they occurred, they can be found in many, many history books .... BUT THEY DO NOT SPEAK TO THE EVENTS AND ACTORS IN CHAPTER 11 OF DANIEL - THAT IS, UNLESS YOU  WANT THEM TO... Then definitely happened in our history, but they are not to be ascribed to the verses in Chapter 11.

No. they are one and the same and AE has no place in Daniel.....

The 4th kingdom is pagan Rome but in 7:11, Daniel tells us it will be slain and its body destroyed... Now, that certainly can be  found in our history books. Between 400 and 500 AD, pagan Rome would soon be gone... No more! But it would be replace by the little horn who came out AMONG the 10 horns.  

Tell me, who are the 10 horns, when did they begin to come up out of pagan Rome. Are they the same as the 10 toes? What happened to them?  If you want to continue to follow your history books, your should be able to identify them, because they have been there before Christ, after Christ and will continue until the end of time... meaning, they can not arrive onto the scene after the little horn takes power around 500 AD and will continue until the end until he is destroyed without human hands. The 10 horns or kings can not arise after 500 AD.... they are already in place. So, historically, we can see them in our history books but we fail to identify them.... that is all.

Nope, I asked you this question earlier I believe. If you honor the historical approach, you should be able to identify them. But you can't because the historical approach doesn't work. So what does just about everyone contend --- well, we can not identify them in our history books, so they must not yet be on the earth .. they must come some 2000 years in the future - and there is no shortage of interpretations on who this 10 are.... everywhere from Turkey, the EU, the Islamic nations, and many, many other claims....

I agree, but once again, Walvoord is so like the many others of his time, those still living today and those that came before him after the reformation - he is looking at Daniel though the eyes of an historicist and when he can not find them in his history books, they must be in the future....  no, that is not right... 

The little horn has been labeled as such since he represents the "opposer" to everything about God's kingdom on earth. He indeed represents the papacy and his position and title and authority will continue for the next 1500 years.. Again, Daniel is largely symbolic and God is not going to list our all the popes during the 1500 years. Their attack on everything God will continue regardless of the name his parents gave him.

No, they represented the 4 generals... they are found in Chapter 7 as the four heads in Chapter 7, they are the four notable onesi n Chapter 8:22 - but they were not symbolized as 4 horns.....  Chapter 8 focuses on the "horns" or powers not the kingdoms or kings.

Well, to be completely candid, I believe it is you who have placed a historical fence around Daniel. But when the actual historical events SHOULD BE FOUND WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you won't consider them and let them in. When the actual historical events are WITHIN THE FENCED AREA, you allow for no interpretation but your own (and by your own I respecrfully mean those to "today's interpretations" within the preterist view).

Roy, this is simply way to complicated to continue this piecemeal... I can assure you that God has put together a very consistent storyline in Daniel where the earlier chapters and verses support the latter chapters and verses and vice versa ..... they  all speak as one continuous messianic prophecy that runs through the 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are not the story....It is all about the Messiah and His plan of salvation for mankind - both Jew and Gentile.

Best wishes, Charlie

Shalom, @Charlie744.

Sorry, but we're at an impass here, and I'm not going to detract from this topic any longer. The book of Daniel mentions the resurrections here in ...

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV)

2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, and SOME TO SHAME [AND] EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (the skies) (GLORY); and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever (GLORY)."

This is yet in the future, and it's the last thing this messenger tells Daniel before telling him to close the scroll and seal it.

We know from the Messiah's own words that HE will be the One who performs God's judgment on the world, because He does whatever His Father tells Him to do.

John 5:19-30 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

Regarding the 70 Weeks of years of Daniel 9:24-27, they are NOT yet finished. That is the preterist view of them. While the futurists are wrong to put the whole Seventieth Week into the future, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") DID leave them "desolate," putting a delay in the Seventy Weeks at the half-way point in the final Week of years, with the first 3.5 years being fulfilled in His "earthly ministry" during His First Advent (His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews - the children of Yhudah or "Judah" - His OWN TRIBE of the twelve tribes of Israel, Jacob's new, God-given name).

Gabriel said in ...

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(1) to finish the transgression,
(2) and to make an end of sins,
(3) and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) and to anoint the most Holy [literally, the "holy of holies"].

25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make [it] desolate, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (the END), and that determined [the pressure of being left "desolate"; tribulation] shall be poured upon the [ones left] desolate."

The Messiah Yeeshuwa` HIMSELF told us that this desolation would not be finished until He returns:

First, He arrived in Yerushalayim ("Jerusalem") one week before His Resurrection, and we read this happened:

Matthew 21:6-9 (KJV)

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set [him] thereon. 8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed [them] in the way. 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying,

"HOSANNA to the Son of David (Greek: Ὡσαννὰ τῷ υἱῷ Δαβίδ = "Hoosanna too huioo Dabid" = "Save-us-now to-the son 0f-David"): Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest!"

He bemoans the abominations of the scribes and Pharisees in the first part of Matthew 23, and then He says this:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

This is a quote from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:20-29 (KJV)

20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation (Hebrew: וַתְּהִי־לִי לִישׁוּעָה = "vathiy-liy liyshuw`aah = art-become-to-my to-Yshuw`aah or to-my to-Salvation"). 22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] (capstone) of the corner (angle). 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. 24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now (Hebrew: הוֹשִׁיעָה נָּא = "Howshi`aah naa'" = Greek: Ὡσαννὰ  = "Hoosanna" = "Rescue-us now!"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 BLESSED [BE] HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD (Hebrew: בָּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה = "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH": we have blessed you out of THE HOUSE OF THE LORD. 27 God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar. 28 Thou [art] my God, and I will praise thee: [thou art] my God, I will exalt thee. 29 O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Then, He said to His disciples,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

As I've said before, the words "Baruwkh haba'" are seen at all the seaports and airports in Israel today in the plural, "Baruwkhiym haba'iym." They mean, "Welcome, comers" or "Welcome, visitors!"

In other words, He won't return until they can WELCOME HIM BACK, regardless whether He is the "Jesus Christ" of the Christians!

Furthermore, they must do so from the Temple! Since there is not a Temple now, there must be a Temple rebuilt before He returns!

The period of desolation IS the Great Tribulation, and it IS the Time of Jacob's Trouble!

So, this will conclude the period of desolation, and the final 1/2 of the Seventieth Week of years will continue AFTER the Messiah has returned and as He offers His Kingdom to the children of Yhudah - the Jews - a NEW generation - once again.

The problem has been that the Futurists so far have equated the Seventieth Week of years WITH the "Tribulation!" They are NOT the same thing! The "Great Tribulation" or "Great Pressure" is sandwiched BETWEEN the two halves of the Seventieth Week.

Now, that's all I'll say on the matter.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

True.

Shalom, @WilliamL.

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. All the back and forth on the prophecies of the messengers to Daniel have dominated this topic for a while, and I guess this post is about Daniel, as well. BUT, I try to give people equal time, especially in a topic started by myself. Just remember: This is a topic on RESURRECTION, not on the prophecies in the book of Daniel. However, you do deserve a response:

I'm glad you agree that 'The Hebrew words translated "and at the time of the end" are "וּבְעֵת קֵץ" and are not meant to be taken as a one-time-in-history event! The transliteration of these TWO WORDS (translated into SEVEN) are "uwV`eet qeets," and are directly translated as "and-in-a-time of-an-end." No definite article is present or implied.'

That gives us a starting point. "UwV`eet qeets" just simply means "and-in-a-time of-an-end." It doesn't say to WHICH "end" the messenger is referring, nor does it say an "end" of WHAT. On the other hand, context, then, must give us the answer to these questions.

The conflict between Antiochus IV and the Hasmoneans and the end of the Hasmonean rule are found in verse 35. And verses 36 through 39 are about a NEW king who comes on the scene. The verses before 11:40 are Daniel 11:36-39:

Daniel 11:36-39 (KJV)

36 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain."

See, these verses are about the king who reigns over Jerusalem AFTER the Hasmonean rulership - King Herod the Great! He also was an "antichrist type!" He was an Idumean - an Edomite - who was forcibly converted to Judaism:

Bryan T. Huie, who wrote "DANIEL 11 - PROPHECY FULFILLED!" on the website "Here a Little, There a Little," said,

"Success in achieving and maintaining power also defined Herod the Great. History shows that Herod was an Idumean (the Edomites were forcibly converted to Judaism under the Hasmonean ruler John Hyrcanus about 130 BCE). His father Antipater II, a friend and advisor of Hasmonean ruler Hyrcanus II, was made procurator of Judea by Julius Caesar. In that position, Antipater II made Herod the governor of Galilee at the age of 25 in 47 BCE. Herod ingratiated himself with Rome following the assassination of Julius Caesar and eventually married Mariamne, a granddaughter of Hyrcanus II (even though he was already married with a young son). Due to a recommendation by Hyrcanus II (as well as a bribe paid to Roman ruler Mark Antony), Herod was appointed as a tetrarch over Judea in 41 BCE."

Thus, Herod the Great fills this description: He didn't care about the "God of his fathers," because as a son of Edom or Esau, he and his relatives didn't much care for the God who took the birthright and the blessing away from their ancestor Esau, and they were MADE to be "Jews" by the Hasmoneans. So, he didn't give a HANG about the Jews over whom he was appointed! But, he LOVED POWER and He was a builder (so he could put his name on things). The Hebrew of verse 38 is this:

וְלֶאֱלֹ֙הַּ֙ מָֽעֻזִּ֔ים עַל־כַּנֹּ֖ו יְכַבֵּ֑ד וְלֶאֱלֹ֜והַּ אֲשֶׁ֧ר לֹא־יְדָעֻ֣הוּ אֲבֹתָ֗יו יְכַבֵּ֛ד בְּזָהָ֥ב וּבְכֶ֛סֶף וּבְאֶ֥בֶן יְקָרָ֖ה וּבַחֲמֻדֹֽות׃

This transliterates to this:

38 Vle'elohha maa`uzziym `al-kannow ykhabeed vle'elowhha 'asher lo'-ydaa`uhuw 'aVotaayow ykhabeed bzaahaaV uwVkhecef uwV'eVen yqaaraah uwVachamudowt:

38 And-to-a-god from-strongholds over-his-place 

So, to my statement on 7/30/2024 at 11:29 AM, "It's a mistake to take these two words as though they were a LABEL for a particular event in history, particularly yet in the future!" you said,

On 8/1/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

False. The whole passage introduced by these two words describe events that have not yet taken place in history, and conclude 1) in 11:45 with a personal occupation of an antichrist-type person of the "glorious holy mountain" = Temple Mount, 2) immediately followed by (12:1) "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time" = the Great Tribulation, 3) immediately followed by (12:2-3) the resurrection of righteous and unrighteous dead.

The antichrist-type person is still Herod the Great, but this is about Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY, Jerusalem! Herod was the PROXY king for Rome, but Rome was the actual ruling party over Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY!

In the middle of Herod's reign, the leadership of Rome changed from Mark Antony (Marcus Antonius), who fell in love and sided with Cleopatra II, ruler of Egypt, (the "king of the south") to Octavius (the "king of the north"). The battle between the two was waged with ships and infantry on land, and they invaded and fought through the Land of the Jews. 

So, from 11:40-11:43, we are seeing the battle between Mark Antony and Cleopatra in Egypt in the south and Octavius of Rome in the north, and Octavius with his army chased Mark Antony and his remaining companions back to Egypt through the Promised Land, only affecting those nations on the west side of the Jordan River.

Daniel 11:44 through the end of the chapter picks up where the messenger left off with Herod the Great. He's the one who is "disturbed by news from the north and east," the Wise Men from the east with news of the star appearing in the sky, heralding thebirth of the new King of the Jews!

The name מִיכָאֵל or "Miykhaa'eel" means "who [is] like God," with "miy" meaning "who," "khaa" meaning "like," and "'Eel" meaning "God," and most think this a question. But if so, Yeeshuwa` is the answer for HE is the ONE "who is like God," for He is "the Son of God!" And, it was during His time when the Jews and Jerusalem were "left desolate" (Matthew 23:38), and after He stopped God's acceptance of the "sacrifice and oblation" (Daniel 9:27) when He was "cut off," (Daniel 9:26) the "spreading out of abominations" of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:1-37) led to the "desolation" that occurred in 66 A.D. (Matthew 24:15-21), and the hammerblow fell in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. That's when "the time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" began (Daniel 12:1). The Jews were dispersed among the nations at that time, and again later from the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 138 A.D., and they've been dispersed ever since, in spite of the nation's rebirth in 1948 A.D. They have not all been regathered, yet.

On 8/1/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

A better road map for the basic events of the End Times cannot be found in the OT!

Not a chance. He never conquered Egypt, nor did he descend into Israel from the north to war against the king of the south (he was from Idumea, south of Judea!), he never warred against Egypt and had power over all its treasures, and so on. You're trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.

You're right in a sense; Herod the Great never conquered Egypt, but OCTAVIUS of Rome did! Herod the Great was just a PROXY-king of Rome over the Jews! Again, it's not JUST about Herod the Great, but about Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY, Jerusalem!

[WilliamL]

On 8/11/2024 at 6:31 AM, Retrobyter said:

In the middle of Herod's reign, the leadership of Rome changed from Mark Antony (Marcus Antonius), who fell in love and sided with Cleopatra II, ruler of Egypt, (the "king of the south") to Octavius (the "king of the north"). The battle between the two was waged with ships and infantry on land, and they invaded and fought through the Land of the Jews. 

Either you, or your source, are making up history.

The leadership of Rome did not "change from Antony to Octavius." They were both part of a triumvirate of rulers.

Antony, as your posited King of the South, did not attack Octavius, per Daniel 11:40: it was the other way around.

The two did not "invade and fght through the land of the Jews."

After Octavius defeated Antony in Egypt, there were no "tiding from the east and the north" that caused him to "go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many," per Dan. 11:44. Nor did he "place the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain," and "come to his end." 11:45

And so on.

In short, you are continuing to try to force square pegs into round historical holes.

Daniel 11:40 - 12:3 and following are one continuous End Time sequence, which includes the Great Tribulation (12:1) and the resurrection of the dead. 12:2-3

You are welcome to your views, but in the coming days you will see that Daniel 11:40 ff. truly foretell End Time events -- OUR times.

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Either you, or your source, are making up history.

The leadership of Rome did not "change from Antony to Octavius." They were both part of a triumvirate of rulers.

Antony, as your posited King of the South, did not attack Octavius, per Daniel 11:40: it was the other way around.

The two did not "invade and fght through the land of the Jews."

After Octavius defeated Antony in Egypt, there were no "tiding from the east and the north" that caused him to "go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many," per Dan. 11:44. Nor did he "place the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain," and "come to his end." 11:45

And so on.

In short, you are continuing to try to force square pegs into round historical holes.

Daniel 11:40 - 12:3 and following are one continuous End Time sequence, which includes the Great Tribulation (12:1) and the resurrection of the dead. 12:2-3

You are welcome to your views, but in the coming days you will see that Daniel 11:40 ff. truly foretell End Time events -- OUR times.

For what it is worth, I agree that 11:40-45 are indeed true end time events. However, I have a very different intepretation that what might be considered "today's accepted interpretations."

The most important point is that these verses like so many in Daniel are symbolic and verses 40-45 are no different. The use of military like terms does not bring them from the symbolic to the literal as everyone believes. 

This can also be found at the beginning of Chapter 11 through the entire chapter. The most important finding is just who is the KOS and KON.  This is the key to understanding Chapter 11 ... and I might mention it literally took me 7 months - just on this one issue, to crack the door open for Chapter 11.

Verses 11:1-4 speak of the pre-Roman kingdoms and ends with the mentioning of the the giving of the Greek kingdom to the 4 generals. Verse 11:4 puts a "close" on these kingdoms. They will never be discussed in Daniel again. Consequently, verse 11:5 begins a completely new discussion that begins with the 4th kingdom of Rome. The entire chapter after 11:5 talks about the coming Messiah, the setting up  of His church, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, the coming of the little horn to full power around 500 AD, and then beginning in 11:40, it speaks only to the true end times when the little horn and the 4th beast kingdom will continue for some 1500 years but will soon come to his end. 

Chapter 11, just like almost all of the chapters in Daniel are not written in chronological order. Instead, they are presented in a "dream sequence" manner (which is nothing more than a "summary" fashion). Then, the remaining verses will discuss those certain details that God wants us to see that take place within those same "dream sequence" verses. He gives us the summay level of events first, then comes back to the detalis that give more of the specifics. 

I have not yet tried to apply this approach to Genesis, but I am wondering if that is the same approach God is using there when He discusses the creation of everything in a "summary" manner, and then comes back to providing the details that are important within those summary verses.

Anyway, the KOS in 11:5 is definitely the key to Chapter 11.

And once again, (for what it is worth), the ONLY actors in Chapter 11 will be those that have already been identified in Chapter 2 AND ONE OTHER - in Chapter 7 - that being the little horn who  will continue until the end.

However, you will indeed find AE, the Ptloemy's, the Seleucid's, and many other Greek and Roman generals or powers and their conflicts documented in our history books. But they have no business in God's plan of salvation for the Jews or mankind. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

23 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Chapter 11, just like almost all of the chapters in Daniel are not written in chronological order. Instead, they are presented in a "dream sequence" manner (which is nothing more than a "summary" fashion). Then, the remaining verses will discuss those certain details that God wants us to see that take place within those same "dream sequence" verses.

You're dreaming.

[Charlie744]

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You're dreaming.

Very nice comment William. 

[Retrobyter]

On 8/13/2024 at 4:40 PM, WilliamL said:

Either you, or your source, are making up history.

The leadership of Rome did not "change from Antony to Octavius." They were both part of a triumvirate of rulers.

Shalom, @WilliamL.

Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Roman Senate on the Ides of March 44 B.C., and the three made a pact together, forming the "official triumvirate."

Prior to Julius Caesar's assassination, Cleopatra (VII), the "Pharaoh" or Queen of Egypt, co-regent with Ptolemy XIII who not only was her co-regent, but according to Egyptian tradition, was named her "husband," and who had banished her in 48 B.C. to become SOLE pharoah of Egypt, had seduced Julius Caesar and was vying for his support and help against her brother-husband. After he and her younger sister, Arsinoe (who also had aspirations to rule Egypt) were both defeated, she expected to be named Egypt's SOLE ruler, but instead, Rome named her another co-regent with her younger brother, She became pregnant by Julius Caesar and bore him a son, Ptolemy Caesar or "Caesarion." Adding the "-ion" suffix in Greek is like adding the "-ito" or "-ita" suffix in Spanish; it's the diminutive of the word.

History Extra says,

'In June 47 BC, Cleopatra gave birth to a son, Ptolemy Caesar, known as Caesarion – ‘little Caesar’ – although the child was never formally acknowledged by his father. The pair followed Caesar to Rome, where they were officially welcomed as “friends and allies of the Roman people”.

'Beneath the veneer of its friendly exterior, Rome was furious. Caesar had no sons from his Roman wife, Calpurnia, and none from his previous wives. The idea of Caesarion – the son of a foreigner from a land despised as a pleasure-loving and decadent society – growing up to claim rule over ‘civilised’ Rome as Caesar’s heir, was intolerable.'

Julius Caesar never recognized his son, however, and claimed his grandnephew Octavian (who later became Caesar Augustus) as his successor.

Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Roman Senate on the Ides of March, 44 B.C., and Cleopatra and her son fled to Alexandria.

Later, however, Cleopatra also managed to seduce Mark Antony, as well, who truly loved her.

On 8/13/2024 at 4:40 PM, WilliamL said:

Antony, as your posited King of the South, did not attack Octavius, per Daniel 11:40: it was the other way around.

Daniel 11:40 doesn't say that the king of the south DID attack the king of the north; it says rather that he PUSHED at him, like a bull pushes with his horns. He GOADED him by his participation in the civil war and in divorcing his sister, Octavia, who was initially married to cement the deal of the official triumvirate, in favor of his "true love," Cleopatra VII, whom he married, although his marriage was not recognized by Rome.

Bryan T. Huie gives us this information:

'Antony and Octavius made a pact with a third party (Marcus Aemilius Lepidus) to rule Rome after the assassination of Julius Caesar in 44 BCE [the official triumvirate]. In the civil war that followed Caesar's death, they defeated the assassins' forces in 42 BCE. The next year, Antony fell in love with Egyptian queen Cleopatra. After Antony suffered a military defeat against the Parthians in 36 BCE, he and Octavius had a falling out. Worsening the situation was the fact that, in 32 BCE, Antony divorced his Roman wife, Octavia (the sister of Octavius) and ceded many of the eastern Roman territories to Cleopatra and their children. Finally, in 31 BCE, a new civil war broke out between the Roman Senate-supported Octavius and Antony/Cleopatra.

'The Roman historian Plutarch wrote that the first move in the war was made by Antony (at the insistence of Cleopatra). Thus we see that the "king of the South" indeed first attacked the "king of the North." The Roman Senate quickly pronounced Antony an outlaw and declared war on Cleopatra.

'In this war, Herod supported Antony and sent supplies to his forces. He wished to join Antony for a final showdown with Octavius, but fortunately Antony dispatched him and his troops to fight the Nabatean king Malichus.'

On 8/13/2024 at 4:40 PM, WilliamL said:

The two did not "invade and fight through the land of the Jews."

Again, Mr. Huie writes,

'The course Octavius took after his victory over Antony and Cleopatra accurately follows the prophecy. He passed through Syria, Judea (the "glorious land"), and Egypt in his pursuit of the pair. However, the lands of Edom, Moab, and Ammon were not invaded during this excursion. A later expedition into these areas (about 25 BCE), under the command of Aelius Gallus along with 500 troops from Herod, was not successful and no further efforts were made against them.'

Again, He got this information from the historian Plutarch.

On 8/13/2024 at 4:40 PM, WilliamL said:

After Octavius defeated Antony in Egypt, there were no "tiding from the east and the north" that caused him to "go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many," per Dan. 11:44. Nor did he "place the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain," and "come to his end." 11:45

And so on.

Oops! Wrong person! Again, this is a prophecy about Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY, Jerusalem, not about Rome, or Egypt, or any other nation. Now, we switch back to Herod the Great, who is the king of Judaea, as per Rome's orders! It was HE who received the disturbing news:

Matthew 2:1-8 (KJV)

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying,

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (bend the knee to) him."

3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], HE WAS TROUBLED, AND ALL JERUSALEM WITH HIM. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him,

"In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 "'And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.' (Micah 5:2, 4)"

7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said,

"Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship (bend the knee to) him also."

The Magi or "Wise Men" went around the Fertile Crescent to arrive in the Land of Israel, thus the news WAS "from the north and the east!" Furthermore, it was HEROD THE GREAT who was the great builder! Not only did he totally refurbish the Temple, but he also built the Fortress of Masada, the palace at Heriodium, the port of Caesarea, the Fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem, Roman aqueducts, and more to leave himself a legacy that would be remembered. The Fortress of Antonia, and his own palace in Jerusalem, were indeed built "on the glorious holy mountain," and were between the two seas, the Mediterranean Sea on the west, and the Dead Sea on the east.

On 8/13/2024 at 4:40 PM, WilliamL said:

In short, you are continuing to try to force square pegs into round historical holes.

Daniel 11:40 - 12:3 and following are one continuous End Time sequence, which includes the Great Tribulation (12:1) and the resurrection of the dead. 12:2-3

You are welcome to your views, but in the coming days you will see that Daniel 11:40 ff. truly foretell End Time events -- OUR times.

No, the round pegs fit just fine in the round historical holes. You're just ignoring history to bolster this erroneous interpretation of the messenger's prophecy recorded in Daniel 11 and 12.

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" of Daniel 12:1 (the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time") is MUCH longer than a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years)! It started in the Messiah's time and has lasted ever since! It won't be over until the Messiah Yeeshuwa` returns as promised.

[WilliamL]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:26 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 8/13/2024 at 2:40 PM, WilliamL said:

After Octavius defeated Antony in Egypt, there were no "tiding from the east and the north" that caused him to "go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many," per Dan. 11:44. Nor did he "place the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain," and "come to his end." 11:45

And so on.

Oops! Wrong person! Again, this is a prophecy about Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY, Jerusalem, not about Rome, or Egypt, or any other nation. Now, we switch back to Herod the Great,

And this epitomizes the flaws in your and your source's argument. You shift back and forth between calling two different rulers "the king of the north," but the Hebrew text provides for no such shifting: the same ruler is described as one who does all the acts of Daniel 11:40-45. (And that ruler comes from a Greek/Gentile origin, not from Daniel's PEOPLE .) This is twisting the scriptures to fit a historical argument, rather than using the scriptures to discern whether historical events fit a prophecy.

On 8/17/2024 at 10:26 PM, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" of Daniel 12:1 (the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time") is MUCH longer than a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years)! It started in the Messiah's time

False! Jesus told us exactly when the "great tribulation" is to begin:

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)... 21 ...then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel the prophet tells us what will immediately precede the event of the abomination of desolation:

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

This is a vastly shorter period of time than you have presumed.

For more about this period, go here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

 

[Retrobyter]

On 8/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

And this epitomizes the flaws in your and your source's argument. You shift back and forth between calling two different rulers "the king of the north," but the Hebrew text provides for no such shifting: the same ruler is described as one who does all the acts of Daniel 11:40-45. (And that ruler comes from a Greek/Gentile origin, not from Daniel's PEOPLE.) This is twisting the scriptures to fit a historical argument, rather than using the scriptures to discern whether historical events fit a prophecy.

Shalom, @WilliamL.

Sorry, but you're not paying attention to the wording in Daniel 11. The "king of the north" has been changing hands since the death of "the great horn of the goat," Alexander the Great in 11:4! There's a WHOLE DYNASTY - the Seleucid Dynasty - attached to the term in verses 6 through 35! Each new king that came along was technically "the king to the north."

Also, King Herod the Great was NOT a natural Jew! He was a Edomite who was FORCED to become "Jewish" through the influence of the Hasmonean dynasty including Judas Maccabee, or "Yhudah haMakabiy," meaning "Judah the Hammerer," and the title was extended to the whole family of priests stemming from his grandfather, haMakabiym, "the Maccabees." That "conversion" facilitated His rulership over Judaea, but it was NOT his "birthright" in any way. He was a descendent of Esau, the twin of Jacob, who came from Isaac and Rebekah.

Also, Herod the Great was NOT the primary king of the Jews! He was a CLIENT king of Rome! He also had a king, the Emperor Caesar Augustus! By his time, Greek influence had waned and Roman influence had dominated. Zeus became Jupiter, Hera became Juno, etc.! Even Heracles had been changed to Hercules!

So, some of that prophecy about a "king to the north" has to do with Caesar Augustus, who used to be called Octavian. He was the antagonist of Anthony and Cleopatra, to whom the title of the "king of the south" had descended.

On 8/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

False! Jesus told us exactly when the "great tribulation" is to begin:

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)... 21 ...then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You're neglecting two things: Matthew 24:9 and the second-person, plutal pronoun in the Greek language.

To show you the similarities between the two, Matthew 24:21 in the Greek says,

21 Estai gar tote THLIPSIS megalee hoia ou gegonen ap' archees kosmou heoos tou nun oud ou mee geneetai.

Here's the Greek of Matthew 24:9:

9 Tote paradoosousin humas eis THLISPIN kai apoktenousin humas kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou.

9 "Then they-shall-deliver-up you into TRIBULATION and they-shall-kill you and ye-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me."

(The Greek preposition "eis," meaning "into," only takes the accusative case.)

Secondly, the words "humeis," "humas," "humoon," and "humin" are all PLURAL SECOND-PERSON pronouns, all translated as "ye" or "you" or "your" in the KJV. Furthermore, verbs that end in "-ete" or "-ethe" also refer to the SECOND PERSON.

They have to do with to WHOM He is talking when giving this discourse! So, they apply to the small group of men around Him as He is talking upon the Mount of Olives (Har haZeitiym). This is true THROUGHOUT the Olivet Discourse! Not everything in the Olivet Discourse is about our future; some of the things He said were for HIS generation - the men who were His disciples and THEIR NEAR future, which is now our PAST! Thus, this "thlipsis" - "tribulation" - began in the DISCIPLES' TIME PERIOD, in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! THEY were the ones advised to flee Jerusalem by taking the "Road of the Rooftops" out of town, when they saw the desecration of the Temple (by the Romans, btw)! They did this in 68 A.D., before the Romans put Jerusalem under siege and destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D!

On 8/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel the prophet tells us what will immediately precede the event of the abomination of desolation:

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

This is a vastly shorter period of time than you have presumed.

For more about this period, go here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

 

Nonsense. The "men" in Daniel 12 have gone back to the prophecy about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes!" The most major of the events in chapters 11 and 12:1-4 was Antiochus' desecration of the Temple when he would sacrifice a pig on the Altar of Sacrifice on the Temple grounds to Olympian Zeus, mentioned in 11:31! He did this in 167 B.C.

Britannica.com says this:

"Antiochus IV Epiphanes , (born c. 215—died 164 BC, Tabae, Iran), Seleucid king of the Hellenistic Syrian kingdom (175–164 BC). Son of Antiochus III, he was taken hostage in Rome (189–175), where he learned about Roman institutions. On his release, he ousted a usurper to take over Syria. He conquered Egypt except Alexandria (169) and ruled Egypt as regent for his nephew Ptolemy VI. The Roman defeat of his Macedonian allies neutralized his victories in Cyprus and Egypt (168), and he was forced to leave both, though he kept southern Syria. He took Jerusalem (167) and enforced its Hellenization; Jewish rites were forbidden on pain of death. In 164 Judas Maccabaeus and the anti-Greek Jews conquered Judaea except for the Acra in Jerusalem (164), tore down the altar of Zeus, and reconsecrated the Temple. Antiochus then turned to defending his empire against the Parthians in the east, regained Armenia, and went on to the Arabian coast before dying in Persis."

The University of Chicago (https://penelope.uchicago.edu) tells us:

"Antiochus IV (Epiphanes), the king of Syria, captured Jerusalem in 167 BC and desecrated the Temple by offering the sacrifice of a pig on an altar to Zeus (the Abomination of Desolation)."

Guess how long it was from 167 B.C. to 164 B.C.? And, in 161 B.C., 

Read it again!

Daniel 12:5-13 (KJV)

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river,

"How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?"

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that

"[it shall be] for a time, times, and an half (Hebrew: לְמוֹעֵד מוֹעֲדִים וָחֵצִי = "l-mow`eed mow`adiym vaacheetsiy" = "to/for-a-cycle-of-religious-holy-days, two-cycles, and-a-half") ; and WHEN HE SHALL HAVE ACCOMPLISHED TO SCATTER THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE, all these [things] shall be finished."

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I,

"O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?"

9 And he said,

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 "And FROM THE TIME [THAT] THE DAILY [SACRIFICE] SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety (1,290) days. 12 BLESSED [IS] HE THAT WAITETH, AND COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty (1,335) days.

13 "But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

The Jewish year consists mostly of months that alternate between 29 days and 30 days, since Jewish chronology is based upon the lunar cycle of about 29.5 days. This means that 12 months would normally consist of 354 days. which is about 11 days short of a solar year. About every three years, there is a leap month (a second Adar)! This will balance the number of months with the solar cycle of the year, from spring equinox to spring equinox.

So, 3.5 solar years of 365.2421 days per solar year = 1,278.34735 days.

1,290 days is 43.7288 months or a little more than 3 and a half years (3.644 years) of 354 days with at least one leap month.

1,335 days is 45 days, a month and a half more than that. This is the time that it took to get rid of Antiochus IV and then to purge the Temple.

All of this was in Daniel's FAR-OFF FUTURE! Now, it's in our past, during the Hasmonean kingdom, recorded in 1 Maccabees.

[WilliamL]

On 8/29/2024 at 10:25 PM, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but you're not paying attention to the wording in Daniel 11. The "king of the north" has been changing hands since the death of "the great horn of the goat," Alexander the Great in 11:4! There's a WHOLE DYNASTY - the Seleucid Dynasty - attached to the term in verses 6 through 35! Each new king that came along was technically "the king to the north."

Correct. And each new king that came along was mentioned as such. No such mention of any change of personhood is provided in 11:40-45. For you to presume to add one is adding to the Word something that is not there. I.e., eisegesis.

On 8/29/2024 at 10:25 PM, Retrobyter said:

Nonsense. The "men" in Daniel 12 have gone back to the prophecy about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes!" The most major of the events in chapters 11 and 12:1-4 was Antiochus' desecration of the Temple when he would sacrifice a pig on the Altar of Sacrifice on the Temple grounds to Olympian Zeus, mentioned in 11:31! He did this in 167 B.C.

Britannica.com says this:

"Antiochus IV Epiphanes , (born c. 215—died 164 BC, Tabae, Iran), Seleucid king of the Hellenistic Syrian kingdom (175–164 BC). Son of Antiochus III, he was taken hostage in Rome (189–175), where he learned about Roman institutions. On his release, he ousted a usurper to take over Syria. He conquered Egypt except Alexandria (169) and ruled Egypt as regent for his nephew Ptolemy VI. The Roman defeat of his Macedonian allies neutralized his victories in Cyprus and Egypt (168), and he was forced to leave both, though he kept southern Syria. He took Jerusalem (167) and enforced its Hellenization; Jewish rites were forbidden on pain of death. In 164 Judas Maccabaeus and the anti-Greek Jews conquered Judaea except for the Acra in Jerusalem (164), tore down the altar of Zeus, and reconsecrated the Temple. Antiochus then turned to defending his empire against the Parthians in the east, regained Armenia, and went on to the Arabian coast before dying in Persis."

The University of Chicago (https://penelope.uchicago.edu) tells us:

"Antiochus IV (Epiphanes), the king of Syria, captured Jerusalem in 167 BC and desecrated the Temple by offering the sacrifice of a pig on an altar to Zeus (the Abomination of Desolation)."

Guess how long it was from 167 B.C. to 164 B.C.? And, in 161 B.C., 

Read it again!

Daniel 12:5-13 (KJV)

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river,

"How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?"

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that

"[it shall be] for a time, times, and an half (Hebrew: לְמוֹעֵד מוֹעֲדִים וָחֵצִי = "l-mow`eed mow`adiym vaacheetsiy" = "to/for-a-cycle-of-religious-holy-days, two-cycles, and-a-half") ; and WHEN HE SHALL HAVE ACCOMPLISHED TO SCATTER THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE, all these [things] shall be finished."

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I,

"O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]?"

9 And he said,

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 "And FROM THE TIME [THAT] THE DAILY [SACRIFICE] SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, and THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety (1,290) days. 12 BLESSED [IS] HE THAT WAITETH, AND COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty (1,335) days.

13 "But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

The Jewish year consists mostly of months that alternate between 29 days and 30 days, since Jewish chronology is based upon the lunar cycle of about 29.5 days. This means that 12 months would normally consist of 354 days. which is about 11 days short of a solar year. About every three years, there is a leap month (a second Adar)! This will balance the number of months with the solar cycle of the year, from spring equinox to spring equinox.

So, 3.5 solar years of 365.2421 days per solar year = 1,278.34735 days.

1,290 days is 43.7288 months or a little more than 3 and a half years (3.644 years) of 354 days with at least one leap month.

1,335 days is 45 days, a month and a half more than that. This is the time that it took to get rid of Antiochus IV and then to purge the Temple.

All of this was in Daniel's FAR-OFF FUTURE! Now, it's in our past, during the Hasmonean kingdom, recorded in 1 Maccabees.

The problem with this whole long ramble is that it just completely misses the major point of Jesus' prophecy of Matthew 24. Which is: the foretelling of "the Parousia of the Son of Man." 24:27, 3

That Parousia DID NOT TAKE PLACE in the first century AD. We are still waiting for that Parousia, at which time the dead in Christ will be raised and immortalized, and the wicked dead will be raised and brought to scorn. Which is what we are clearly told, in whole or part, in Daniel 12:2-3, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thes. 4, and John 5:28-29.

So your long narratives about the events of the first century AD destruction of the Temple, and also the time of the abomination of Antiochus Epiphanes, are completely irrelevant, because neither era passes the Parousia and resurrection-of-the-dead tests.