Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

[Retrobyter]

On 9/3/2024 at 5:12 PM, WilliamL said:

Correct. And each new king that came along was mentioned as such. No such mention of any change of personhood is provided in 11:40-45. For you to presume to add one is adding to the Word something that is not there. I.e., eisegesis.

Shalom, WlliamL.

You're not following. Within this prophecy given by the messenger of God, there have already been a NUMBER of times that the persons change within this Seleucid Dynasty that aren't revealed, except when one studies history! The latter verses of chapter 11 are no different. There's NO SUPPORT for a such a significant leap in history from Antiochus IV to some "Antichrist" that is yet in our FUTURE, not when the rest of the chapter has been going along since Alexander the Great to Antiochus IV! One should keep it to AT LEAST what is revealed in Scripture!

Yeeshuwa`s ("Jesus'") first advent is seen in 11:44 to 12:1! From "the tidings from the East and North," to "the beginning of the Great Tribulation" (which, btw, began in the First Century), Yeeshuwa` is merely MENTIONED in this monologue, but He IS mentioned! And, these events were supported in the Gospels: Matthew 2:1-3 and Matthew 23:37-39 and the details of Matthew 24-25 in the Olivet Discourse!

On 9/3/2024 at 5:12 PM, WilliamL said:

The problem with this whole long ramble is that it just completely misses the major point of Jesus' prophecy of Matthew 24. Which is: the foretelling of "the Parousia of the Son of Man." 24:27, 3

However, look CAREFULLY at Daniel 12:1 (REMEMBERING that chapter divisions came MUCH later in time!):

Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

1 "... And at that time shall "Who is like God" stand up, the great prince
(Hebrew: הַשַּׂר הַגָּדוֹל haSar haGaadowl) which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ..."

Yeeshuwa` was identified as haMaashiyach 'Elohiym, the Messiah (Christ) of God, in the New Testament, who is said to be "Sar Shalom," "Prince of Peace," in Isaiah 9:6, Ezekiel 46:2, and Daniel 8:25.

The "gap" of time between Yeeshuwa`s first advent and His second advent, the Parousia, is seen in this "time of trouble." Consider ...

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.

25 "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (His first advent) [shall be] seven (7) weeks, and threescore and two (62) weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And AFTER threescore and two (62) weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (in 70 A.D.); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (goes back to Messiah the Prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 of years): and in the midst of the week (7/2 = 3.5 years, the time of His "ministry," or rather, His first offer of the Kingdom to the Jews) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by the tearing of the veil in HIS Sacrifice), and for the overspreading of abominations (those of the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23), he shall make [it] desolate (Matthew 23:38), even until the consummation (the end, the completion), and that determined (the time of trouble) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews)."

Thus, the seven years are NOT the "tribulation period!" Instead, they are the OFFER of the Kingdom to the Jews, both in the First Century and at His Second Coming! The "time of trouble" or the "tribulation" is that time period SANDWICHED between the two halves! It's the time period in which we live today!

On 9/3/2024 at 5:12 PM, WilliamL said:

That Parousia DID NOT TAKE PLACE in the first century AD. We are still waiting for that Parousia, at which time the dead in Christ will be raised and immortalized, and the wicked dead will be raised and brought to scorn. Which is what we are clearly told, in whole or part, in Daniel 12:2-3, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thes. 4, and John 5:28-29.

You're right, the Parousia did NOT take place in the First Century A.D.; however, the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" DID BEGIN at that time, as PREDICTED BY YEESHUWA` IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE!

Consider:

Matthew 24:4-21 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ';

"and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ..."

The first line of verse 9 is worded like this in the Greek:

9a τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς

This transliterates to ...

9a Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas

A word-for-word translation into English is ...

9a "Then they-shall-deliver-up you into tribulation and they-shall-kill you:"

Notice the pronouns used (and highlighted above). They START in the 2nd-person plural (ye, you, your) and become nebulous (many, he, him, his, them)  later in each section. When He is using the 2nd-person plural forms, He is talking DIRECTLY to those disciples to whom He is talking upon the Mount of Olives that day! When He is using the more nebulous terms, He is peering off into the more distant future, beyond their lifetimes!

So, the tribulation - the pressure put upon the Jewish people, both believers and unbelievers - began in the First Century, and it has continued ever since, and it will continue until the Messiah Returns (the Parousia)!

On 9/3/2024 at 5:12 PM, WilliamL said:

So your long narratives about the events of the first century AD destruction of the Temple, and also the time of the abomination of Antiochus Epiphanes, are completely irrelevant, because neither era passes the Parousia and resurrection-of-the-dead tests.

You may want to reconsider ....

 

Edited September 6 by Retrobyter
to fix a reference

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all who may be following along.

The thing one must remember is that the "tribulation" as it is called, is NOT just a title for a specific time period! It's not a "seven-year period" at all! It is a PRESSURE put upon the Jewish people to WAKE THEM UP! It's CHASTISEMENT!

In Daniel 9:27 it was called in the KJV as "that determined shall be poured." (In Hebrew, this is two words: "וְנֶחֱרָצָה תִּתַּךְ" or "vnecheraatsaah tittakh" or "and-that-determined shall-be-poured.")

Don't think of word "tribulation" as a title or a label; think instead about how it is a CONSTANT PRESSURE upon His people Israel to DRIVE them back to God!

Now, so it doesn't totally wipe out the children of Israel, particularly the Jews or children of Judah, who also are the Messiah's family of origin, the Messiah's tribe, He also foretold,

Matthew 24:15-22 (KJV)

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (you) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (You) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (you) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

(Please note that this is ONE paragraph.)

Now, notice the plural, second-person pronouns (which is found in the Greek, both in the pronouns and in the verb declension, as well).  He's saying this TO HIS DISCIPLES RIGHT THERE ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES! Also, He's not saying "IF ye therefore shall see..."; He's saying "WHEN ye therefore shall see!"

So, the "tribulation" began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D., and it won't end until He returns! It's WRONG to think the "tribulation" is a mere 7 years long, or even 3.5 years long!

The seven years of Daniel 9:24-27; that is, the last Week of the 70 Weeks of years, was indeed split in half:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the MESSIAH of verse 26) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This was fulfilled in Matthew 23 and Matthew 27:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the LORD!'"

and

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (This is the fulfillment of Psalm 22:1)

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said,

"This [man] calleth for Elias!"

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him!"

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN (IN TWO) FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent (cracked); 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of (a) God!" (He was a Roman, after all.)

The author of Hebrews adds this explanation:

Hebrews 9:1-28; 10:1-25 (KJV)

1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. 7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION [FOR US]. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying,

"This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you."

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but NOW ONCE IN THE END OF THE WORLD HATH HE APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So CHRIST WAS ONCE OFFERED TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (rescue).

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year. 4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I,

"'Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.'"

8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]"; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will (God's will) WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE [FOR ALL].

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For BY ONE OFFERING HE HATH PERFECTED FOR EVER THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED. 

15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days," saith the Lord, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And THEIR SINS AND INIQUITIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE."

18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By A NEW AND LIVING WAY, which he hath consecrated for us, THROUGH THE VEIL, THAT IS TO SAY, HIS FLESH; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

So, through the death of the Messiah - the Christ, He has torn the veil in the temple, representing His OWN body, and had FINISHED the sacrifices and gifts through the Sacrifice of His OWN body!

Remembering that "soul" means an "air-breathing creature," we read this in Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:6-12 (KJV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD (God the Father) hath laid on him (Yeeshuwa`, the Son of God) the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; HE hath put [him] to grief: WHEN THOU (READER) SHALT MAKE HIS SOUL (HIS AIR-BREATHING CREATURE) AN OFFERING FOR SIN, HE SHALL SEE [HIS] SEED, HE SHALL PROLONG [HIS] DAYS, AND THE PLEASURE OF THE LORD SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND. 11 HE (GOD) SHALL SEE OF THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL (THE MESSIAH'S "AIR-BREATHING CREATURE"), [AND] SHALL BE SATISFIED: 

"By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul (air-breathing creature) unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

I hadn't seen this before, but the end of verse 11 and verse 12 MUST be the LORD (YHWH) speaking, for who else could say, "MY righteous servant," talking about Yeeshuwa`? or, "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great"?

[WilliamL]

On 9/5/2024 at 11:45 PM, Retrobyter said:

You're not following. Within this prophecy given by the messenger of God, there have already been a NUMBER of times that the persons change within this Seleucid Dynasty that aren't revealed, except when one studies history! The latter verses of chapter 11 are no different. There's NO SUPPORT for a such a significant leap in history from Antiochus IV to some "Antichrist" that is yet in our FUTURE, not when the rest of the chapter has been going along since Alexander the Great to Antiochus IV!

You violate your own argument then, when saying there is a leap from the Seleucids to the Edomite King Herod to the Roman emperor Antony. Please be consistent in your judgments!

On 9/5/2024 at 11:45 PM, Retrobyter said:

You're right, the Parousia did NOT take place in the First Century A.D.; however, the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" DID BEGIN at that time, as PREDICTED BY YEESHUWA` IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE!

No, it did not. You claim that this time of trouble was speaking of the Jewish nation only, but the context of the Olivet discourse says it is to be a time of trouble for ALL nations: "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom." This hasn't happened yet, but we're getting close to it!

[Retrobyter]

On 9/10/2024 at 2:17 PM, WilliamL said:

You violate your own argument then, when saying there is a leap from the Seleucids to the Edomite King Herod to the Roman emperor Antony. Please be consistent in your judgments!

Shalom, @WilliamL.

Sorry to take so long. I get distracted by other threads, and forget where I was. I'll try to review what I started more consistently.

No, see, the natural flow of the rulership of the Land in history was from the Seleucid dynasty of the Greek empire to the Hasmonean dynasty of priests, who conquered the Edomites (Idumea) and forced them to convert to Judaism. This was the origin of Herod the Great, who became Rome's client king over Judaea.

Bryan T. Huie said,

"Success in achieving and maintaining power also defined Herod the Great. History shows that Herod was an Idumean (the Edomites were forcibly converted to Judaism under the Hasmonean ruler John Hyrcanus about 130 BCE). His father Antipater II, a friend and advisor of Hasmonean ruler Hyrcanus II, was made procurator of Judea by Julius Caesar. In that position, Antipater II made Herod the governor of Galilee at the age of 25 in 47 BCE. Herod ingratiated himself with Rome following the assassination of Julius Caesar and eventually married Mariamne, a granddaughter of Hyrcanus II (even though he was already married with a young son). Due to a recommendation by Hyrcanus II (as well as a bribe paid to Roman ruler Mark Antony), Herod was appointed as a tetrarch over Judea in 41 BCE."

So, the remaining verses of Daniel 11, verses 36 to 45, were ALL about Herod the Great until his death in verse 45. It's just that, as Rome's puppet, he was all about ingratiating himself to whoever was in charge at the time! At first, he sided with Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, but then, seeing the tides change, he flipped on Mark Anthony and gave allegiance to Octavius instead! Of verses 40 to 43, Mr. Huie said,

"Remember, this prophecy is not primarily concerned with Syria, Egypt, Rome or any other foreign power, but with the fate of Daniel's people, the Jews. Verses 40-43 are a parenthetical insert describing the last major battle over the land of Israel before the Messiah appeared.

"For the final time in this prophecy, we see the king of the South and the king of the North engage one another in battle. Here, the king of the South is Mark Antony and his ally Cleopatra (the last monarch to occupy the Egyptian throne). The king of the North is Octavius, who as the official representative of Rome, was ruler of the former Syrian empire of the Seleucids." (Emphasis mine.)

If anything, the prophecy itself glossed over the time of the Hasmonean dynasty after Judas Maccabees, briefly mentioning it in verse 35. 

On 9/10/2024 at 2:17 PM, WilliamL said:

No, it did not. You claim that this time of trouble was speaking of the Jewish nation only, but the context of the Olivet discourse says it is to be a time of trouble for ALL nations: "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom." This hasn't happened yet, but we're getting close to it!

Actually, Yeeshuwa` was just describing a VERY ... LONG ... TIME! We're IN it! How long does it take for a nation to rise against another nation? At first, they might live peaceably alongside one another, even profitting from commerce between them. But then, some "inequality" comes to a head and a leader gets ambitious and negotiations between the nations breaks down, and one attacks the other. Sometimes, the attacker wins; sometimes, the attacked wins. Often such skirmishes draw in other nations into the fight, such as in the World Wars. In any case, THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN OVER NIGHT! He was implying that this would happen SEVERAL times before His Second Coming, indicating that it would be a long time.

[WilliamL]

On 12/20/2024 at 7:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, the remaining verses of Daniel 11, verses 36 to 45, were ALL about Herod the Great until his death in verse 45.

We went over this earlier. To restate what I said before in brief, verses 40-45 were NOT historically fulfilled by Herod the Great as "the King of the North." Particularly so, as I stated, because the events of 12:1-3 immediately flow out of 11:45, and no mass resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead took place in that era.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:07 PM, WilliamL said:

We went over this earlier. To restate what I said before in brief, verses 40-45 were NOT historically fulfilled by Herod the Great as "the King of the North." Particularly so, as I stated, because the events of 12:1-3 immediately flow out of 11:45, and no mass resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead took place in that era.

Shalom, @WilliamL, and Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Sorry, my friend, but you're not reading what I wrote or what Brother Huie wrote. The part about "the king of the north" (don't capitalize it) is a parenthetical portion (verses 40-43) about the Roman leader at the time, Octavius, to whom Herod the Great switched his loyalties from Mark Antony, and about the last battle that involved the Holy Land before the coming of the Messiah in 12:1. But, it was Herod the Great who heard the tidings out of the East and the North (around the Fertile Crescent) when the "wise men" came from the East! This news GREATLY disturbed the man who killed his own sons, rather than give up the throne to them!

These verses are not TOTALLY about Herod the Great; rather, THEY ARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, DANIEL'S PEOPLE, AND THE LAND OF ISRAEL!

But, if one is to be blind to the facts of history, then one will most likely make up all kinds of stories about these last verses of chapter 11. That's why there's no clear consensus from those who believe they are yet to be fulfilled in the future by some "Antichrist" figure!

Oh, and by the way, "antichrist" is a philosophical stance, not a person. READ 1 and 2 John! THAT'S where the term is found! It's to be AGAINST Yeeshuwa` being the CHRIST, that is, the MESSIAH OF ISRAEL, the ONE ANOINTED BY GOD TO BE ISRAEL'S KING!

Sadly, there are MANY "Christian churches" who believe He won't fulfill this role. They have BOUGHT INTO this philosophy, saying we're just "going to Heaven," instead! They claim that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") will "reign in Heaven!" BUT, HIS PURPOSE IS TO REIGN UPON THE EARTH!!! 

Read Peter's words in Acts 2:

Acts 2:22-36 (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.' (Psalm 16:8-11)

29 "Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that HE IS BOTH DEAD AND BURIED, AND HIS SEPULCHRE IS WITH US UNTO THIS DAY. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, HE (GOD) WOULD RAISE UP CHRIST TO SIT ON HIS (DAVID'S) THRONE; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that "his soul (air-breathing creature) was not left in hell (in the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption (decay). 32 THIS JESUS HATH GOD RAISED UP, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."' (Psalm 110:1)

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that GOD HATH MADE THAT SAME JESUS, WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST."

And, as Yeeshuwa` Himself pointed out to the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), 

Matthew 22:41-46 (KJV)

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying,

"What think ye of Christ (the Messiah)? whose son is he?"

They say unto him,

"[The Son] of David."

43 He saith unto them,

"How then doth David IN SPIRIT call him 'Lord,' saying,

44 "'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool' (Psalm 110:1)?

45 "If David then call him 'Lord,' how is he (the Messiah) his (David's) son?"

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

At this Christmas season, consider the words of Gabriel to Mary at the Announcement just before our Lord's Conception:

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women!" (Today, one might say, "You're the luckiest girl in the world!" or "You won the lottery!")

29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found FAVOUR with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; AND OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END." 

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God! 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible."

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

Herod the Great did not regard "the desire of women," which was TO BE THE MESSIAH'S MOM! EVERY woman in Judah wanted to be that ONE mother! They KNEW that He was to be BORN in Beit-Lechem ("Bethlehem") - the "House of Bread" - the small town 5.5 miles south of Jerusalem, from the readings in Micah's prophecy in the synagogues! But, BY WHOM would He be born?!

Please see that this ties it all together! That's what it's all about! Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was born as the Son of David, a descendant of David entitled to his throne, and was SAID to be the One who would "REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB (ISRAEL) FOR EVER!" That's NOT just for "a thousand years!" That's FOREVER! And, to emphasize the matter he added, "OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END!"

[Retrobyter]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:07 PM, WilliamL said:

...

Particularly so, as I stated, because the events of 12:1-3 immediately flow out of 11:45, and no mass resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead took place in that era.

Shalom, again, @WilliamL.

Yes, and the One "Who is like God" stood up for the children of Israel at that time, having been born just before Herod's death in 4 B.C.E. (which would have been the TRUE divide between "B.C." or "Before Christ," and "A.D." or "Anno Domini," Latin for "After the Lord" was born). 

Of COURSE "no mass resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead took place in that era!" The resurrections of both will happen after the current time - the PRESENT! The "gap" is to be seen in "there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time"! This IS the "time of trouble" or the "Tribulation!" We're IN IT! It's been going on for almost 2,000 years, since our Lord Yeeshuwa` pronounced them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38!