Let's talk about RESURRECTION!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to one and all! I'm hoping that this topic will encourage and embolden all of you who know the LORD and His Messiah, His Christ!

Many songs today seem to make an analogy of death and resurrection in one's sufferings and pain and coming to a joyful or peaceful resolution, but I feel that they may be misleading many who have "given up" on the Messiah's return! Resurrection is a PROMISED EVENT!

Let's start with Yeeshuwa`s ("Jesus'") own words in John 5:

John 5:16-30 (KJV, quotations and coloring are mine)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God!

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

(Yeeshuwa` said more, but I've already quoted too much for some, single-verse Christians to read.)

Now, look at Paul's words in what I call the "Resurrection chapter of the Bible," 1 Corinthians 15:

Speaking of resurrections, he said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV, quotations and coloring are mine)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 23 But every man (person) in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (again, singular);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (YHWH GOD the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest [clear; obvious] that "he" is excepted, which "did put all things under him".)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, let's start with this simple fact: God the Father has granted for Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") to be the MASTER OF LIFE! HE was given the authority and the power to raise EVERYONE back to life again, whether in the FIRST general resurrection (of those who belong to the Messiah) or in the SECOND general resurrection (of those who are the unjust standing before the Great White Throne for judgment and sentencing)!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, to all!

Now, let's look at the "flip side" of the coin: Yeeshuwa` is also the MASTER OF DEATH!

Let's look at Yeeshuwa`s own words for this, as well:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade with this) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities!'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25"(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'"

It's rather a parable within a parable, as the inner parable is also found in Matthew 25:14-30. However, one should turn one's focus on verses 12-15 and verse 27 which are the "outer parable," if one understands my point. Speaking primarily of the scribes and P'ruwshiym ("Pharisees" = "Separatists"), they are the ones who REFUSED Yeeshuwa`s GOD-GIVEN title as "King of the Jews!" Even the foreigners, the Magi, knew of this title when He was born, and they came from a great distance to honor Him! The scribes at that time KNEW that He would be born in Beit-Lechem ("Bethlehem"), or the "House of Bread," telling Herod the Great, who conveyed that information to the Magi. 

Now, I ask this question: Where are those scribes and Pharisees today? They are DEAD AND BURIED! So, how are His enemies to be "brought before Him and slain before Him?" The answer is simple: He will RESURRECT THEM for that purpose! They are NOT getting away with His murder!

Consider the prophecy of Revelation:

Revelation 1:12-18 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen (Hebrew for "Truth"); and have the keys of hell and of death." 

Later in Revelation, we see Him wield that sword!

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So, He also KILLS whom He will! He makes no mistake, but, since He also raises to life, it's not "the end of that person!" And, He will judge all - righteous and wicked.

Now, did Yeeshuwa` raise people back to life during His "earthly ministry" (His FIRST offer of the Kingdom to Israel)? We KNOW He did! We have several examples: the daughter of the synagogue leader, Yaa'iyr ("Jair" or "Jairus"); the widow's son in Naa'aah ("Nain"); and His friend, Eleazar ("Lazarus") were all raised to life by Him. Mattityahuw ("Matthew") also records Yeeshuwa`s instructions to His disciples whom He made "apostles" (sent-ones):

Matthew 11:1-15 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;
The first, Simon, who is called Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James the son of Zebedee,
and John his brother; 
3 Philip,
and Bartholomew;
Thomas,
and Matthew the publican;
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 
4 Simon the Canaanite,
and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying,

"'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ..."

He said much more; read the whole of Matthew 10 to see it all. Then we read in Matthew 11,

Matthew 11:1-6 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him,

"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

In the last verse of his Gospel, Yochanan ("John") tells us:

John 21:25 (KJV, quotation marks, coloring, and emphasis are mine)

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We know of three accounts, but the disciples, too, raised the dead! So, who knows how many were raised to life during those 3.5 years?!

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Many songs today seem to make an analogy of death and resurrection in one's sufferings and pain and coming to a joyful or peaceful resolution, but I feel that they may be misleading many who have "given up" on the Messiah's return! Resurrection is a PROMISED EVENT

You are correct. The majority of Christians believe that after death a believer goes to heaven. They intellectually state there is a resurrection, but don't really believe it. What for? If you're at your destination, (and Abraham has been there at least 2,000 years), what does the resurrection bring?. I propose that;
This doctrine is leaven - as predicted by the Lord in Matthew 13
This doctrine has not a single supporting scripture
This doctrine is not logical for the dead RISE
This doctrine overturns Acts 2:26-34 were David is still in Hades 50 days after our Lord's resurrection
This doctrine says you may appear before God unclean for the dead are unclean
This doctrine says that you appear before God naked, for the dead are naked (2nd Cor.5)
This doctrine denies the Church because it is the Gates of Hades are moot
This doctrine denies the Church because our bodies are thee members of Christ
This doctrine denies the power of Christ as the Life-giving Spirit (1st Cor.15:45)
This doctrine denies the Work of Christ because men stay dead (Jn.5:28, 1st Cor.15:22-26)
This doctrine forces men to doctrinally manufacture another body, but it is those IN THE GRAVE who hear
This doctrine annuls Christ's resurrection because how can He be FIRST-born if no others are born from the dead (Col.1.18)
This doctrine makes Paul a liar. He said the dead RISE but one in heaven can only DESCEND

If only half of these are correct, we have, as a fundamental doctrine, a very dangerous and damaging situation.

The most famous of arguments is that at His resurrection Christ raised the dead (Ephesian 4:8). But this verse does not address the dead. It addresses the "captivity". The grammar indicates that the "captives" are still captives seeing as they are still "captivity"! It does not say that He lead captivity "FREE".

The deciding scripture is 1st Corinthians 15:23. Those who are Christ's are resurrected "WHEN HE COMES". To this agrees 1st Thessalonians 4. In verse 16 it says that the Lord DESCENDS. In verse 17 we who are alive do NOT PRECEED the dead. They must rise and then TOGETHER we are caught up to "MEET" the Lord. Also agreeing with this are the ten Virgins of Matthew 25. ALL rise at His coming - the wise AND the foolish. The reason is in verse 6. The Bridegroom COMETH!

[Mr. M]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, to all!

Now, let's look at the "flip side" of the coin: Yeeshuwa` is also the MASTER OF DEATH!

Let's look at Yeeshuwa`s own words for this, as well:

A favorite prophetic word!

1 Samuel 2:1 And Hannah prayed and said:

My heart rejoices in the Lord;
My horn is exalted in the Lord.
I smile at my enemies,
Because I rejoice in Your salvation.

2 No one is holy like the Lord,
For there is none besides You,
Nor is there any rock like our God.

3 Talk no more so very proudly;
Let no arrogance come from your mouth,
For the Lord is the God of knowledge;
And by Him actions are weighed.

4 The bows of the mighty men are broken,
And those who stumbled are girded with strength.
5 Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread,
And the hungry have ceased to hunger.
Even the barren has borne seven,
And she who has many children has become feeble.

6 The Lord kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
And lifts the beggar from the ash heap,
To set them among princes
And make them inherit the throne of glory.

For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s,
And He has set the world upon them.
9 He will guard the feet of His saints,
But the wicked shall be silent in darkness.

For by strength no man shall prevail.
10 The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken in pieces;
From heaven He will thunder against them.
The Lord will judge the ends of the earth.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, let's start with this simple fact: God the Father has granted for Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") to be the MASTER OF LIFE! HE was given the authority and the power to raise EVERYONE back to life again, whether in the FIRST general resurrection (of those who belong to the Messiah) or in the SECOND general resurrection (of those who are the unjust standing before the Great White Throne for judgment and sentencing)!

From what I see and read the first resurrection of people are only those who came out from within great tribulation, living and dead. 

The 2nd resurrection is the general resurrection where all the rest of the dead [no living taken up] not in the 1st resurrection, are before the throne and judged according to Matt 25:31-46.

Of course there is a resurrection, are resurrections, but it's planned a bit differently than what we hear from the white, western, dispensationalist, pretrib doctrine. 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You are correct. The majority of Christians believe that after death a believer goes to heaven. They intellectually state there is a resurrection, but don't really believe it. What for? If you're at your destination, (and Abraham has been there at least 2,000 years), what does the resurrection bring?. I propose that;
This doctrine is leaven - as predicted by the Lord in Matthew 13
This doctrine has not a single supporting scripture
This doctrine is not logical for the dead RISE
This doctrine overturns Acts 2:26-34 were David is still in Hades 50 days after our Lord's resurrection
This doctrine says you may appear before God unclean for the dead are unclean
This doctrine says that you appear before God naked, for the dead are naked (2nd Cor.5)
This doctrine denies the Church because it is the Gates of Hades are moot
This doctrine denies the Church because our bodies are thee members of Christ
This doctrine denies the power of Christ as the Life-giving Spirit (1st Cor.15:45)
This doctrine denies the Work of Christ because men stay dead (Jn.5:28, 1st Cor.15:22-26)
This doctrine forces men to doctrinally manufacture another body, but it is those IN THE GRAVE who hear
This doctrine annuls Christ's resurrection because how can He be FIRST-born if no others are born from the dead (Col.1.18)
This doctrine makes Paul a liar. He said the dead RISE but one in heaven can only DESCEND

If only half of these are correct, we have, as a fundamental doctrine, a very dangerous and damaging situation.

Shalom, AdHoc.

Just for clarity on my part, when you refer to "this doctrine," are you talking about the doctrine - the teaching - that "after death a believer goes to heaven. They intellectually state there is a resurrection, but don't really believe it. What for? If you're at your destination, (and Abraham has been there at least 2,000 years), what does the resurrection bring"? I want to be sure I'm following what you're conveying.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The most famous of arguments is that at His resurrection Christ raised the dead (Ephesian 4:8). But this verse does not address the dead. It addresses the "captivity". The grammar indicates that the "captives" are still captives seeing as they are still "captivity"! It does not say that He lead captivity "FREE".

Actually, this verse is misunderstood by many believers. One must look at the verse in context and look up where the verse comes from in the Old Testament and what THAT verse means in its context.

Please forgive the quoting of a whole chapter, but these verses are NOT disjoint; they work together. See, I was brought up as a "single-verse Christian" and had to learn the value of context on my own. Therefore, we must see the context in the whole of what Paul was trying to communicate:

Ephesians 4:1-32 (KJV)

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech (urge) you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith,

"When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

9 (Now that "he ascended," what is it but that "he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth"? 10 "He that descended" is the same also that "ascended up far above all heavens," that he might fill all things.) ()

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (lifestyle) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

So, Paul was saying that WE ALL are given a work to do, and we need to walk is such a way that we convey the nobility of the Messiah in our daily lives and values. We are not given these gifts for us to receive them; but we are entrusted with these works that we may give back to YHWH GOD!

Now, zero in on verses 7-10: These verses come from an understanding of the 68th Psalm, a psalm of David. (I'll just quote the beginning and what is necessary in the psalm and I do this in the NIV for clarity:)

1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. A song.

May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
2 May you blow them away like smoke—
as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.
3 But may the righteous be glad and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.

4 Sing to God, sing in praise of his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds;
rejoice before him—his name is the Lord (YHWH).

5 A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.
6 God sets the lonely in families, 
he leads out the prisoners with singing;

but the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.

7 When you, God, went out before your people,
when you marched through the wilderness,
8 the earth shook, the heavens poured down rain,
before God, the One of Sinai, before God, the God of Israel.

9 You gave abundant showers, O God;
you refreshed your weary inheritance.
10 Your people settled in it,
and from your bounty, God, you provided for the poor.

11 The Lord announces the word,
and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:

12 “Kings and armies flee in haste;
the women at home divide the plunder.
13 Even while you sleep among the sheep pens,
the wings of my dove are sheathed with silver, its feathers with shining gold.”

14 When the Almighty scattered the kings in the land,
it was like snow fallen on Mount Zalmon.

15 Mount Bashan, majestic mountain, Mount Bashan, rugged mountain,
16 why gaze in envy, you rugged mountain,
at the mountain where God chooses to reign,
where the Lord (YHWH) himself will dwell forever?

17 The chariots of God are tens of thousands and thousands of thousands;
the Lord (YHWH) has come from Sinai into his sanctuary.

18 When you ascended on high, you took many captives (from Egypt);
you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious (sacrifices)—
that you, Lord God (YHWH 'Elohiym), might dwell there.

This psalm is about YHWH God leading the captives from Egypt out to Sinai, and eventually to the Land, particularly to Jerusalem.

This is NOT talking about leading captives from "Hades" to "Heaven." It's talking about leading them from the lowlands of the Nile delta region (Goshen) to the height of Mount Sinai, and beyond to the heights of the hills of Tsiyown ("Zion") where Jerusalem sits!

 

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The deciding scripture is 1st Corinthians 15:23. Those who are Christ's are resurrected "WHEN HE COMES". To this agrees 1st Thessalonians 4. In verse 16 it says that the Lord DESCENDS. In verse 17 we who are alive do NOT PRECEED the dead. They must rise and then TOGETHER we are caught up to "MEET" the Lord. Also agreeing with this are the ten Virgins of Matthew 25. ALL rise at His coming - the wise AND the foolish. The reason is in verse 6. The Bridegroom COMETH!

However, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 do NOT say where we go from there! We "meet the Lord" Yeeshuwa` "in the AIR, and so shall be ever be with the Lord," but Paul neglects to say where the Messiah's next destination will be! However, He is RETURNING TO THE EARTH when He sends out His messengers to gather His elect from the four compass directions of the earth, but what is He prophesied to do next?! Yeeshuwa` said, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." (Matthew 25:31) And, He said, "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded ...." (Luke 19:15a). Gabriel, one of the messengers of God, said, "Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)

He's not going "back to Heaven"; He's going to take up His God-given throne and start to reign from Jerusalem! In 1 Corinthians 15:50-57, Paul speaks only to the Resurrection! It likewise doesn't say where we'll be going next! Nor, did the Messiah, when He said, "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." (John 14:1-4) He only said that wherever He will be, we will be there, too! Many extend what He said to the first part of this quote, namely, His Father's house, but He NEVER said He was taking us there! To the contrary, John later tells us in Revelation 21 that His Father's "Tent" comes HERE to the New Earth, the same planet renovated to its "before-the-Flood" condition, and he tells us, "there shall be no more curse!" (Revelation 21:1-4; 22:3)

Finally, one must remember that there is a THIRD special Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:24! It is at "THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." The explanation of when this "end" happens is wordy, but explicit. This THIRD Resurrection happens AFTER the Messiah "has put down all rule and all authority and power" while reigning as the "King of kings" or "world Emperor." This is the Resurrection spoken about in Revelation 20:12-13. Yeeshuwa` called it "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29) and Paul called it "a resurrection of the unjust dead,"  while speaking before governor Felix (Acts 24:15).

[Revelation Man]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:01 PM, AdHoc said:

The deciding scripture is 1st Corinthians 15:23. Those who are Christ's are resurrected "WHEN HE COMES". To this agrees 1st Thessalonians 4. In verse 16 it says that the Lord DESCENDS. In verse 17 we who are alive do NOT PRECEED the dead. They must rise and then TOGETHER we are caught up to "MEET" the Lord. Also agreeing with this are the ten Virgins of Matthew 25. ALL rise at His coming - the wise AND the foolish. The reason is in verse 6. The Bridegroom COMETH!

I agree, only a select few (Moses and Elijah) currently have glorious bodies. There are two resurrections, one happens over a 7 year period of time, the Pre Trib./70th week rapture sees the Church who are ready to be sifted raptured to heaven to marry the lamb, they/we arise as Spirit men, travel to heaven in a flash to get our glorious bodies as a reward (the Raiment is a part of the reward) then no one gets resurrected after that, no one from the 70th week gets resurrected, Jesus says as much via his Seventh Seal Utterances, and Rev. 20:4 proves the dead of the 70th week are only raised and judged after the 2nd coming, else why is 20:4 even in the book of Revelation if we go straight to heaven? 

Then the 2nd resurrection happens 1000 years later, after Satan has been released from the bottomless pit.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

From what I see and read the first resurrection of people are only those who came out from within great tribulation, living and dead. 

Shalom, Diaste.

I know many believe this, but one may also understand that verse 6 opens it up to all those who belong to the Messiah, and in
1 Corinthians 15:23-24, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered upthe kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The Greek says,

15:23   ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι· ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα οἱ Χριστοῦἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ
15:24  εἶτα τὸ τέλος ὅταν παραδῷ τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρί ὅτανκαταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν

15:23 Hekastos de en too idioo tagmati; aparchee Christos epeita hoi Christouen tee parousia autou.
15:24 eita to telos hotan paradoo teen basileian too Theoo kai patri hotankatargeesee pasan archeen kai pasan exousian kai dunamin.

"Eita" means "then, afterward, next."
The Greek word "epeita" is a combination of "epi" meaning "above, over, moreover, or upon" and "eita."

The Second Resurrection is of all those who belong to the Messiah, both Jew and Gentile, and THEN will come another Resurrection after the Messiah has subdued all authorities and powers and given them to God His Father.

Paul gave us THREE special Resurrections, including that of the Messiah Himself in the First Century.

On 6/5/2024 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

The 2nd resurrection is the general resurrection where all the rest of the dead [no living taken up] not in the 1st resurrection, are before the throne and judged according to Matt 25:31-46.

Matthew 25:31 is talking about a WAR TRIBUNAL that Yeeshuwa` will hold after He has taken back His Land and sits upon His throne. This is what the Greek word "ge-enna" (often written "gehenna") means! The word is from the Hebrew גֵּי הִנֹּם or "geey Hinnom," which is the valley on the south-east side of the Old City of Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel (and then of Judah) set up their judgment seats.

It's NOT THE SAME as the judgment that will occur at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20. Notice carefully,

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the 'sheep' on his right hand, but the 'goats' on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the 'sheep'),

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.'

37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.'

 

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the 'goats'),

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 "Then shall he answer them, saying,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.'

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

First, this occurs at the time that "the Son of man shall come in His glory." That IS the Second Coming, which we already saw in Paul's "Resurrection chapter" above. So, this is the FIRST General Resurrection.

Notice that verse 41 does NOT say that they were THROWN into the fire (as other passages say); He just told them to "go away!" effectively RESIGNING them to the Lake of Fire. That's that nation's DESTINY! If it's members don't do something, that will be each individual's fate within that nation, as well!

This is different than His parables in Matthew 13: There, He is talking about the END of His Kingdom before going into His FATHER'S Kingdom. At that time, He DOES have His messengers throw them into the fire:

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, for instance, Yeeshuwa` said this:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man;
38 The field is (=) the world;
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked [one];
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil;
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (age);
and the reapers are (=) the angels.

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

One simply needs to substitute the analogous symbols with the equated realities, and read the first part again:

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked [one] among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked [one] also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked [one]?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked [one], ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (age): and in the time of the end of the world (age) I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked [one], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'

Then, at the end of this, re-read verses 40-43:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This is what happens at the END of His Kingdom prior to His Father receiving that Kingdom. This is close to the time of the SECOND General Resurrection that Yeeshuwa` calls "the Resurrection of damnation."

On 6/5/2024 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

Of course there is a resurrection, are resurrections, but it's planned a bit differently than what we hear from the white, western, dispensationalist, pretrib doctrine. 

Go BEFORE the "white, western, dispensationalist, pretrib doctrine" and go back to the Greek. That's better than any English translation for clarity.

[Retrobyter]

18 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I agree, only a select few (Moses and Elijah) currently have glorious bodies.

Shalom, Revelation Man.

This is an ASSUMPTION some have made, but there's not one shred of evidence to back up this assumption. We don't actually know WHAT happened to eirther man after they are disappear or were caught away. It's better to leave it as it was told to us:

Chanowkh ("Enoch") "was not for God took him."

Genesis 5:24 (KJV)

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The Hebrew of this verse is:

וַיִּתְהַלֵּךְ חֲנוֹךְ אֶת־הָאֱלֹהִים וְאֵינֶנּוּ כִּי־לָקַח אֹתוֹ אֱלֹהִים׃ פ

This is transliterated as:

24 Vayyit-halleekh Chanowkh 'et-haa'Elohiym v'eeynennuw kiy-laaqach 'otow 'Elohiym: F

This translates word-f0r-word into English as:

24 And-walked-with Chanowkh [d.o.->]-the-God and-he-was-not for-took him God: [end of paragraph]

Put into English word order, we get:

24 And Chanowkh walked with the God and he was not for God took him: [e-o-p]

The word "laqach" means "to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, capture, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away," but we have NO IDEA what happened to him after God "took" him, and the Scriptures are SILENT about his fate or where he went! Be careful not to trust in HUMAN, theological reasoning.

 

Mosheh (Moses), we were told, DIED and was BURIED somewhere around Mount Nebo in a valley! He has not yet been resurrected. That will happen when the Messiah returns.

Deuteronomy 34:1-6 (KJV)

1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that [is] over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan, 2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, 3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. 4 And the LORD said unto him,

"This [is] the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, 'I will give it unto thy seed': I have caused thee to see [it] with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither."

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Apparently, haSatan put up a fuss as to the whereabouts of Moses' gravesite,

Jude 1:9 (KJV)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, 

"The LORD rebuke thee."

Don't be misled by the VISION that the disciples had on the Mount of Transfiguration! This is found in all three of the Synoptic Gospels. Here's Matittyahuw's account:

Matthew 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him!"

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid." 

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mosheh ("Moses") and 'Eliyahuw ("Elijah" or "Elias") were not really there; this was a view into the FUTURE, when our Lord would be IN HIS KINGDOM!

18 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

There are two resurrections, one happens over a 7 year period of time, the Pre Trib./70th week rapture sees the Church who are ready to be sifted raptured to heaven to marry the lamb, they/we arise as Spirit men, travel to heaven in a flash to get our glorious bodies as a reward (the Raiment is a part of the reward) then no one gets resurrected after that, no one from the 70th week gets resurrected, Jesus says as much via his Seventh Seal Utterances, and Rev. 20:4 proves the dead of the 70th week are only raised and judged after the 2nd coming, else why is 20:4 even in the book of Revelation if we go straight to heaven? 

I USED TO believe in this, but no longer.  Now, God has taught me that the "tribulation is NOT a "7 year period of time" but has been going on for almost 2,000 YEARS now! Therefore, there is no such thing as a "pretribulational rapture," because the start of the tribulation has already happened in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! Then, the Messiah told us,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (the sky), and the powers of the heavens (the skies) shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (in the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (the clouds of the sky) with power and great glory (bright radiance). 31 And he shall send his angels (His messengers) with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds (horizontally in all four compass directions), from one end of heaven to the other (vertically from the bottom of the sky to the top of the sky; compare Mark 13:27)."

This is the sign of His Coming, and it happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation!

18 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Then the 2nd resurrection happens 1000 years later, after Satan has been released from the bottomless pit.

This is correct.

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

This is an ASSUMPTION some have made, but there's not one shred of evidence to back up this assumption. We don't actually know WHAT happened to eirther man after they are disappear or were caught away. It's better to leave it as it was told to us:

For starters, just because I only named two doesn't mean I limited it unto only two people, you just assumed that. And we do know Moses an d Elijah were at the transfiguration with Jesus, and that Elijah, AND I believe Moses, will be brought back as the coming two-witnesses, thus they will have glorious bodies before the 2nd coming, so I assume nothing per se.

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I USED TO believe in this, but no longer.  Now, God has taught me that the "tribulation is NOT a "7 year period of time" but has been going on for almost 2,000 YEARS now! Therefore, there is no such thing as a "pretribulational rapture," because the start of the tribulation has already happened in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! Then, the Messiah told us,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (the sky), and the powers of the heavens (the skies) shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (in the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (the clouds of the sky) with power and great glory (bright radiance). 31 And he shall send his angels (His messengers) with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds (horizontally in all four compass directions), from one end of heaven to the other (vertically from the bottom of the sky to the top of the sky; compare Mark 13:27)."

This is the sign of His Coming, and it happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation!

Yea, well I do not think God taught you that brother, I think you are overthinking it all. Yes, all time on earth is tribulation, including the 70th week, BUT...........there is only one Jacob's Troubles which will see a 3.5 year period of time like never seen before or since. Since WW1 & WW2 saw 100s of millions killed, nothing from the past can qualify, only the last 3.5 years where Jesus returns to kill the A.C./Beast which will thus save the worlds peoples from being wiped out in total. Either way, if all Jews are killed or every every person on earth is killed, Satan wins by proving God does not know the future and thus His promises are worthless, but alas, he will of course fail, Amen.

You conflate vs. 29 with vs 30. Just like Zech. 14:2 (Jerusalem gets sacked by the A.C.) and vs. 3 is 1260 days later when Jesus returns it starts out THEN.........God will fight for them.......(Jesus lands on the Mt of Olives and splits it asunder). 

Likewise, vs. 30 starts out THEN..........which is 1260 days after the Sun and Moon goes dark in vs. 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[BEGIN] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven(Asteroid Impact) and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Satan cast down)

{{ So, immediately after the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact which is Trump #2, (the First Trump is the trees burning before the Impact via the asteroid breaking apart as it travels through our atmosphere) the Sun and Moon goes DARK as Trump #4 tells us, its four different phases of an INCOMING ASTEROID !! Trump #3 is the Fallout or Wormwood which poisons the fresh waters in 1/3 of the world, IMHO, the New World. Then we get the 1st Woe which lasts for 5 Months, after Trump #4 via Trump #5......then we get the 2nd Woe   which emits from the 6th Trump and the 3rd Woe (all 7 Vials) which emits from the 7th Trump.

So, what you are doing is wrongly associating vs. 29's IMMEDIATELY which is talking about the Sun and Moon going dark, with the 2nd Coming in vs. 30 which happens 1260 days later !! Which happens below. }}

30 And then(1260 days LATER, after the Asteroid Impact/DOTL God's Wrath begins which DARKENS the Sun & Moon by 1/3) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now lets look at how Zech. 14:2 and 3 also has a 1260 day JUMP and also uses AND THEN............

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh(Asteroid Impact/God's Wrath falls), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken(the 1260 middle of the week A.C. goes forth conquering event), and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Verse 2 and vs. 3 are separated by a 1260 day JUMP in time, that is how Prophecy has to work. We can't get all of the minutia.

3 Then....(1260 days later) shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

You, like many other, make the mistake of conjoining Matt. 24:29 with Matt. 24:30, when vs. 29 is about the Sun & Moon event or Trump #4 and not the 2nd Coming of Jesus my brother in Christ.

I have been blessed to see this, its my calling, it is what I do. I am nothing special, just doing my job.

God Bless, back to the spring cleaning of the barn.

Edited June 7 by Revelation Man