Partial Rapture Theory

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You got everything right until the last sentence. You make a presumption about the meaning of the term "last day." But your understanding flies in the face of other scriptures, such as Daniel 12:1-3ff., 1 Thes. 4:14-17, and Rev. 7:9-14 (wherein the raptured ones are shown in heaven long before the Battle of Armageddon).

As Peter and Moses has told us,

2 Peter 2:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That One Day, the "last day," is the 7th 1000-year Day of man's allotted time on this earth, the Millennium, before the new heavens and the new earth replace the current ones.

Ezekiel 39:7 “So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 “Surely it is coming, and it shall be done,” says the Lord GOD. “This is the day of which I have spoken."

There are many last days.  There is only one last day.  That day is the day after which there are no other days.  Peter describes this day in II PETER chapter 3; 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The visions do not have time stamps on them.  Whatever the vision may indicate there is an absolute stated emphatically we the living shall not precede those who are asleep in Christ.  Those who are asleep in Christ are included in the rest of the dead that are raised one thousand years after the first resurrection.  That just happens to be the day that the elements melt with fervent heat.  The purpose of the rapture is not to avoid wrath but to take those who are alive and remain to the new heaven and the new earth.

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Get a couple of pots of coffee for this one, Vine. I am interested in studying this topic. 

Yes, I genuinely believe those with saving faith will not be protected through but from the coming wrath of God (a.k.a. the Tribulation). Enoch was taken "from" impending global judgment. Noah and the seven were protected "through" the judgment. I assess this as symbolic of a remnant of Israel being protected through the Tribulation. I pretty much agree with what you heard on the radio. My view presented is from a premillennial viewpoint. Amillennialists and others' mileage will vary. I do not think this is the age of the Philadelphian church, detailed below.

The way I view scripture, and to be brief, Daniel’s 70^th week is the seven-year Tribulation. The time of Jacob’s trouble is marked by the A.O.D. (final 3.5 years). It is relatively peaceful in Israel during the first half of the Tribulation under the Antichrist's covenant. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is going nuts with war, plagues, and judgment. I believe the Philadelphia church represents all the believers and believing churches throughout history, as detailed below. And yes, it is conditional as well as a warning.

I could cite several supporting scriptures, but let's use this one:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who are the "us?" Christians are those with the power to become the sons of God at our glorification. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"The day of the Lord" and "in that day" are used several times in the NT., in the negative and judgmental sense. It occurs, but I have never witnessed an earthly father taking his frustration, wrath, and anger out on his son. My experience, "Son, this will hurt me more than you." The Lord corrects His children, but not in wrath or anger. We are under the blood of Christ. When the Lord looks upon us, He sees His own Son and what He did to redeem us.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

I believe this symbolizes something, namely the Rapture of the Church. One focus of Revelation chapters 1-3 is the Church. The Church is mentioned some 19 times in these three chapters, then all of a sudden, in chapter 4, until the end of the book, nothing more is mentioned about the Church; it disappears. I believe the symbology is there with the sudden appearance of the twenty-four elders. The representation of 12 + 12, twelve tribes, and twelve apostles = the 24 elders.

I also believe the seven churches are the history of the church age written in advance. Each characteristic of one Church is passed down collectively to the other, culminating with the churches of our day. In this Laodicean church age, we have a mixture of churches with all the characteristics of the previous six. A true church, idolatrous churches worshiping Mary, praying to saints, prosperity gospel, replacement theology, tickling ear churches, false gospels, politically correct churches, homosexual clergy, purpose-driven, Salvation by works churches, etc.   

Below is how I view the church age written in advance, with the benefit of hindsight, living in the Laodicean church age:

EPHESUS – From the Cross until 100 A.D. Ephesus (ef’-e-sus) = Desirable; beloved. A giving away; to relax; permitted; loosening. (A city on the western coast of Asia Minor noted for the worship of the goddess Diana.) Full purpose; a throwing at. The Apostolic Age. A church can lose its charter. Something good was said about it. They had their priorities wrong.

SMYRNA – From 64 - 313 A.D. Smyrna (smir’-na) = Bitterness; suffering. Myrrh. Something good was said about the Church, and nothing wrong was told about it. It was a time of great persecution of Christians.

PERGAMOS – From 313 – 590 A.D. Pergamos (pur’-ga-mos) = Citadel; fortified; high tower; height; elevation. A root word from which we get our words bigamy and polygamy. Much marriage. (Idea of a marriage; i.e., mixture of the Church and the world.). The age of Constantine. Something good is said about them. It was Satan's seat from Babylon at the time. During this time, replacement theology was born in the RCC, that the Universal RCC inherited the blessings from Israel because of their rejection and murder of their Messiah. During this time, the Church and the state got married. Balaamism [Numbers 22: - 25:].

THYATIRA – From 590 – 1500’s. Thyatira (thi-a-ti’-rah) = High tower; a castle; feminine oppression; odor of affliction. This was the Dark Ages when owning a personal Bible was punishable by death. Mary worship, works, rituals, ceremonies, and the Mass began. The Gospel was added to—a significant structure change with the Pope, cardinals, bishops, and priests. Something good is said. Jezebel, the wife of Ahab, is a source of idolatry in Israel. They were leading people astray from divine authority to man's. Notice there is no call to repent; only judgment remains and will go into the tribulation.

SARDIS – From 1500 – 1700 A.D. [+/- 20 years]. Sardis (sar’-dis) = Remnant; builders rule; escaping ones; those who come out; (idea of restoration). Red ones(?). There's nothing good said about them. The denominational churches. A dead formalist church with ritualistic worship. Due to the invention of the printing press [1550], the Bible was the first book mass-produced and became available to the common man. During this period, the reformation started: Erasmus, Calvin, Zwingli, and Martin Luther.

PHILADELPHIA – From 1700's – 1901 A.D. Philadelphia (fil-a-del’-fe-ah) = Brotherly love. It was a time of great revivals and awakenings—men like Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon, and Moody. America arose as a Christian nation and was blessed by God. Many missionaries were sent out locally and abroad to spread the Gospel. A soul-winning Church with an open door, they had a great report card from Jesus, as nothing negative was said about this Church.

LAODICEA – From 1901 – until the Rapture. Laodicea (la-od-i-se’-ah) = Greek, laos - people; laity; and dicea - opinion; custom; opinion or custom of the people; = justice of the people; ruled by the people; rule of the majority; democratic; i.e., peoples right or opinions—the people's rights. 1901, the Revised Standard Version (RSV-Revised) Bible came to America, competing with our KJV Bible. Rev.3:14-20 describes today's churches: cold, proud, unfaithful, greedy, covetous, and minimal conviction. It's gotten so bad it makes Jesus puke. Churches have been made into a business and feeding itching ears. There are so many greedy millionaire pastors, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and Joyce Meyer, to name several of many. 

Hi bro - that's quite a post! Unfortunately I won't be able to answer that much as I am on travel for about a week and only have a small phone screen with me, which makes it somewhat difficult to reply adequately. This is an interesting non-essential/core topic, to be sure, and one we Christians are all over the map on.

But now that you have me started a bit, let me just say I am of the Mind that rapture has to do with maturity of the crop being reaped.

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Hi bro - that's quite a post! Unfortunately I won't be able to answer that much as I am on travel for about a week and only have a small phone screen with me, which makes it somewhat difficult to reply adequately. This is an interesting non-essential/core topic, to be sure, and one we Christians are all over the map on.

But now that you have me started a bit, let me just say I am of the Mind that rapture has to do with maturity of the crop being reaped.

Have fun and enjoy yourself.

[Revelation Man]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

I have a Greek NT, thought I'd double check. In the Greek NT we see.

"ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης"

Literally, 'going out from within the distress the great'. 

Once again you interpret through the lens of mankind's desires and are found incorrect. 

I'm out. 

Good day.

Working on the house Spring Cleaning 2 days, I fell like the old lady was a Warden who had me on a chain gang.

Your OUT because you lost the debate my beloved brother in Christ. This is why you want to get into the minutia about THE being there or not when I perfectly well showed that...........................

1.) It not relevant, it can be there or not, as long as GREATEST EVER is not there you and other just assume (in error imho....and its an easy call) that this refers to 70th week saints, it doesn't nor can it because of other scriptures elsewhere.

2.) The 5thb seal saints are told THEY MUST WAIT a little season  (42 months) before the get revenge. Mind you, the 5th Seal is Prophetic in nature, so they haven't even died at that moment in time yet. Then on Rev. 20:4b we see those same Martyrs raised and Judged at that time. So, no one from the 70th week gets raptured, so this defeats you whole thought process on the Rapture not being pre 70th week, so I know why you can't debate those points my friend.

What I don't get is entrenched positions when the other side of a debate point overcomes with scriptures. I love being reproved by God because then I know I am traveling from suppositional theory to truth.

You will be flying off "IN SPIRIT" soon with all of us, not matter how much you doth protest. Our Dead bodies will remain on earth. We go marry the Lamb where we get new Glorious bodies, then we return with Jesus as Rev. 19 shows. The we "Feast on the Wicked" at the Marriage Supper. 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/20/2024 at 12:22 PM, WilliamL said:

Likewise with Diaste: the KJV translators used the Textus Receptus of the Greek, which has here

τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης = the tribulation the great = the great tribulation.

The KJV translation is often stated to be a literal version, but that is far from the case in many places.

Just like I told him, its not relevant one way or the other because its POINTING to the Church Age Tribulation. You miss the forest fir the trees here. I proved 100% that no one can or will be Raptured to heaven after the 70th week. The minutia doesn't get in my way my friend. 

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I proved 100% that no one can or will be Raptured to heaven after the 70th week.

Only to yourself. But you are a biased audience.

[WilliamL]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:23 PM, seeking the lost said:

There are many last days.  There is only one last day.  That day is the day after which there are no other days.  Peter describes this day in II PETER chapter 3; 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The visions do not have time stamps on them.  Whatever the vision may indicate there is an absolute stated emphatically we the living shall not precede those who are asleep in Christ.  Those who are asleep in Christ are included in the rest of the dead that are raised one thousand years after the first resurrection.  That just happens to be the day that the elements melt with fervent heat.  The purpose of the rapture is not to avoid wrath but to take those who are alive and remain to the new heaven and the new earth.

This argument is a prime example of proof-texting from a very limited set of scriptures. Regarding the heaven passing away, and the earth melting, this is what happens at the 6th Seal and and some years thereafter:

Rev. 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up...

Isaiah 34:4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment. ...

8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

9 Its [Edom's] streams shall be turned into pitch,

And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.

10 It shall not be quenched night or day;

Its smoke shall ascend forever.

From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

 

Psalm 46:6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved; He uttered His voice, the earth melted.

7 The LORD of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah

8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, Who has made desolations in the earth.

9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth; He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two; He burns the chariot in the fire.

10 Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!

Since the Lord is still be exalted in the earth at this time, it means the earth still exists at this time, despite sky dissolving and earth melting.

You claim that what Peter wrote must apply to the Last Day of earth's existence, and those signs happen then, but Rev. 20 says no such thing. Instead, on that particular day verse 11 simply says 'earth and heaven flee away at the face 0f God on His throne.' Nothing here at all about melting and burning: simply disappearing.

 

[Marilyn C]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:41 AM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for the invitation. Here, very briefly, is my understanding.

In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus gave seven parables on the Kingdom. By Kingdom I mean that area or sphere where Jesus is King and His instructions are followed. While He was on earth the demons were subject to  Him and angels ministered to Him, making Him King of the principalities of heaven. But our Lord never interfered with the kings of men. So, during the gospel age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" pertains to the Church only. The seven parables of Matthew 13 show the development of this Kingdom of Heaven (NOT Kingdom IN Heaven). In these parables certain opposition was to be expected. Unfruitful Christians, Counterfeit Christians, a mustard seed that brings forth Nebuchadnezzar's Tree and Leaven are put there by the enemy. Three of four Parables told from the boat have a harvest and one alludes to a harvest, being bread. And the Lord was clear that the end of the age for the Church was a HARVEST (v.39).

Moving to prophecy on the end of the age, we see four harvests (Rev.14). 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of prophecy. That leaves only the Bible and Nature to interpret prophecy. And if we study the harvest in nature and the harvest in the Bible (Leviticus 23) it is clear that any harvest is divided into three sub-harvests. It is ONE HARVEST, but no farmer will reap unripe fruit. That which is first ripe is NOT left on a Tree or bush. It is taken into the farmers HOUSE because he has waited long for the sweet fruit. Some time later the rest of the crop ripens and a general harvest takes place. The crop goes into the farmers BARN. The law of the harvest says that gleanings must be left for the weak, sickly, disadvantaged like widows and fatherless children. That gives THREE GATHERINGS in ONE HARVEST. And so is the rapture - by the mouth of Jesus Himself (Matthew 13:39).

But this is not all. If there are "partial raptures" and the rapture is split into gatherings for a harvest, we can expect to see SOME Christians in the clouds with the Son of Man while SOME are left to face the Great Tribulation. And this is the case! In at least THREE scriptures we see Christians saved from the Great Tribulation. The most notable is Revelation 3:10. There, AS A REWARD, Overcomers will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL" that encompasses the WHOLE earth. Note the grammar. It is NOT "Kept IN the hour". It is "kept FROM the hour" And the usage of the "HOUR" means that some are ABSENT for the TIME of the Great Tribulation.

Next, Luke 21 is different to Matthew 24 and 25. It deals mainly with 70 AD. But this prophecy ends in verse 24 with the times of the Gentiles FULL. The Lord Jesus abruptly changes to the signs of His coming. Like many prophecies, He jumps over time that is not relevant - like Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted in Acts 2. 2,000 years are skipped over. In Luke 21 the Lord has not yet come because in verse 26 his COMING is mentioned but verse 27 refers the reader BACK TO WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN. According to Matthew 24 the coming of Jesus in great glory is "AFTER the Tribulation of those days". So in Luke 21:35-36 the diligent and watchful Christian who gets to stand before the Son of Man does so WHILE HE IS STILL IN THE CLOUDS. Notice too, like Revelation 3:10, it is CONDITIONAL. It is a REWARD for watching.

Next, in Philippians 3:9:14 Paul is opening his heart abut his state of Christian maturity. Paul was not sure that he was mature enough. This had serious consequences. Paul says that he would need maturity to "ATTAIN to the resurrection" and to get the PRIZE of the "Upward call". he is addressing the SAME SUBJECT as 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 - a special resurrection (like Revelation 20:1-6) and a PRIZE of a call to go upwards! The KJV is not wrong in its translation, but it is misleading. The New King James corrects it. It is a "calling on high", not a "High calling". So Paul says that there is a "out-resurrection", or "exceptional-resurrection" to be ATTAINED and a PRIZE rapture to be gained ONLY IF YOU ARE MATURE.

Conversely, there are at least FOUR scriptures that show saints going through the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7:9-16 we find a huge crowd from every nation who went through the Great Tribulation. The reason given is that their "garments" needed washing. "A Garment in parable is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). In Revelation 12:17 those who "had the testimony of Jesus Christ" must flee to a wilderness and be helped by the earth from the persecution of the Dragon. No escape for them! In Revelation 13:7 the Beast makes war with the saints during his rule AND OVERCOMES THEM! In Revelation 18:4 we find God's people in Mystery Babylon.

With these, and more proofs, a split rapture, or multiple partial rapture is fact. The only objection left is; "why did the Holy Spirit not mention that a pre-tribulation rapture was a PRIZE in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17"? But if you read the whole letter the answer is given. The Thessalonians are the best Church in the New Testament. No moral problems are attributed to them.

Hi Ad Hoc,

1.Jesus is King of Glory, King of heaven, & King of the Ages all before He was manifest on earth. The `Kingdom (rule) of Heaven, is the rule of the Lord through Israel in the millennium. The 7 parables of the Kingdom reveal this.

Jesus came to confirm the promises of God to Israel through the OT prophets. And doing so Jesus quotes from the OT about the `KOH.` (Good for another thread.)

 

2.You said - ` So, during the gospel age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" pertains to the Church only.` The Body of Christ was NOT revealed during that time only to Paul when the Lord ascended.

 

3.You say that no prophecy is for private interpretation and then go on to give your own interpretation of 3 harvests. There will be no 3 harvests. Scripture only reveals ONE.

`Thrust in your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap. For the harvest of the earth is ripe. ` (Rev. 14: 15)  

Note `harvest,` NOT with an `s.`

4. There is NO church, Body of Christ on earth in the tribulation and great tribulation. The great multitude are the NATIONS. The Body of Christ is `called OUT of the nations.` Big difference there.

Rev. 12: 17 are the `offspring of the woman,` ISRAEL.

Rev. 13: 7 `saints,` are those who turn to God NOT in the Body of Christ.

 

The Body of Christ is ONE spiritual organism and will be completed, matured by the Holy Spirit and joined together when the Lord comes with those asleep and with us who are alive.

[Vine Abider]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:37 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I believe this symbolizes something, namely the Rapture of the Church. One focus of Revelation chapters 1-3 is the Church. The Church is mentioned some 19 times in these three chapters, then all of a sudden, in chapter 4, until the end of the book, nothing more is mentioned about the Church; it disappears. I believe the symbology is there with the sudden appearance of the twenty-four elders. The representation of 12 + 12, twelve tribes, and twelve apostles = the 24 elders.

I also believe the seven churches are the history of the church age written in advance. Each characteristic of one Church is passed down collectively to the other, culminating with the churches of our day. In this Laodicean church age, we have a mixture of churches with all the characteristics of the previous six. A true church, idolatrous churches worshiping Mary, praying to saints, prosperity gospel, replacement theology, tickling ear churches, false gospels, politically correct churches, homosexual clergy, purpose-driven, Salvation by works churches, etc.   

Okay, finally got around to responding to your thoughtful post!  Let me focus my response on the two paragraphs of yours (above) as I think this is a good place to start.

I don't disagree with much of what you posted - lots of agreement.  I may have some subtle differences, which we can explore.  Let me start with the 2nd paragraph about the 7 churches being a history of the church.  I do believe that, however, I also believe at least five of them corresponds to some aspect of the church now.  Therefore, a number of those continue today - for instance, many believe Thyatira is still among us in the form of Roman Catholicism.  So I do believe, like you, that the original 7 churches in Revelation were also an overall picture prediction of church history, but also a description of possible spiritual conditions of gatherings in any given time.

Many commentators think that at least the last 4 of these churches/conditions, is amply represented today. (along with the persecuted church: Smyrna)

Only two of the seven were not corrected by the Lord - Smyrna and the church of brotherly love (Philadelphia).   The promise to the love church was that He would keep them out of the hour of trial about to come on the earth.

I believe He singles out Philadelphia for this promise because they got "it".  That is, they got the main point of God's New Testament economy - love - and practiced it.  Therefore the ones He is speaking to in that letter are told, "Because you have kept the word of my patience (an attribute of love BTW), I will keep you out of the hour of trial about to come on the whole earth."  These ones - the ones practicing genuine love - are the ones told they have an open door before them.  They have but a little strength, but because they kept His word and don't deny His name, they have kept themselves in the crosshairs of His purpose - love, so they are given a grand promise.  They meet a certain condition and are promised a wonderful reward.  

What is the importance of love?  Everything!  Knowledge and effort and all the things Paul mentions in the negative in the first four verses of 1 Corinthians 13, doesn't mature a believer one bit.  Without the genuine experience of the Spirit of Christ living in and through a believer (i.e., love), there is no maturity.  All the "frills" of the religion of Christianity will not help a believer mature one bit.  Are they walking in love?  If so, then they will mature.  If they are not walking in genuine love/Spirit, there is no transformation of the soul, no matter their knowledge or works.

The topic of this thread is about the theory of partial raptures (or multiple raptures, et.al.) - the crux of it, to me, is about whether there are more than one reaping of believers at the end of this age.  I see in the word that there will be multiple ones, and that the first of these will be for those who have matured in the life/love of the Lord with the "heat" they've received. Other fruit will require more "heat" and may need to go through the tribulation to ripen.

Anyway, along with the coffee, there's something to chew on . . .

[farouk]

Partial rapture so called seems to mean that I will be saved by faith in the Person and work of Christ plus by whether I am supposedly good enough. I can never be good enough; it's wholly by grace alone. (Ephesians 2.8-9)