Prophecy

[Starise]

Maybe even more misunderstood than tongues generally speaking amongst mainline denominations.

Who would care to discuss this?

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, Starise said:

Maybe even more misunderstood than tongues generally speaking amongst mainline denominations.

Who would care to discuss this.

Hi Starise,

Good topic. I grew up in a fellowship that had Prophets and those who prophesied. I saw the difference over time and also saw the character of those who gave the word. 

Generally, I would say that the prophecies that came forth (often in torrents, and with a Scottish, or English accent) were about the Lord Himself and His work among the people.

I have grandma`s books she obtained from the Welsh convention once a year and the prophecies are wonderful. Not at all like you may hear in places today, which can be more like fortune telling. 

[Starise]

Thanks for this.

I ordered several books on the subject, not that books are always a sure way to know more on the subject all depending on the author. In addition I attended a prophecy conference. Neither does that make me an expert. Since this hasn’t been my background it was all interesting.

In the denomination I came from prophecy was something that didn’t happen any more. The word was said to mean give the word, as in preaching.

Ffwd a number of years and God put me in a place to learn more about it. One thing I didn’t know is that anyone can prophesy if God leads in that direction.

Prophecy was intended to be encouraging and beneficial to the recipient. Generally those words come to a specific individual but can also come to a larger body. The words are checked against the Bible and others. For this reason these things in my area are often given in public.

I want to develop this, but really the “development “ comes through a person not from a person. No matter how intuitive a person is none of that matters. 
 

Some get pictures, some get it in other ways. I seem to be seeing pictures when I ask the Lord about a person. In one case I had no idea what the pictures mean, therefore I withheld my words. In another case I looked at a man recently saved who had been in much trouble. God showed me a clean blank sign which I took to mean the man was clean in God’s eyes. In the other one I seen a pair of eyes and a blue pastel wall. I have no idea what that was so I’m still praying and seeking. 
Sunday when the leader asked for anything we might get, I seen a burning rag which I took to mean all our righteousness is as filthy rags which are then burned up apart from Jesus.
 

[Marilyn C]

Now I understand where you are coming from. We`ve been to some prophetic conferences too, mainly in the `90`s. And yes, Paul does say by the Holy Spirit that all may prophecy. That said the ministry of a Prophet a different in that it is the person who prophecies in a greater sphere. The Prophet is one of the 5-fold Ministries of Christ to the Body of Christ. He works alongside the Apostle who has the Father`s heart and is not a CEO of an organization, (as some think).

The pictures etc are more in the line of `a word of knowledge.` Some times you can `read the mail,` as we call it, meaning you can get an understanding of the situation the person is going through. This is not always appropriate to blurt out but for your understanding so you can pray with understanding.

Let me give you a sharp example. In the early`80`s I was teaching in a town and took along another teacher to a special meeting. The speaker called this other teacher out the front and said, "You are like a jagged tin can....` Well, that went down like a ton of bricks, you can imagine. The speaker should have prayed into the situation having had that insight. eg -

"The Lord would say you are precious in His sight. And you feel the drawing of His Holy Spirit to know Him more.....` etc 

I have noticed from my grandmother`s prophecies that she kept, (they were typed in those days) that often the prophecy started with a scripture and then was expounded. perhaps you could practice saying a scripture of God`s character and then expounding it. eg.

`Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised.` As we praise the Lord this morning for He is a great God, and as we lift Him high in our midst we exalt Him. Exalt Him who is high above all, exalt Him who reigns over all, exalt the one who died for us, ....Let us raise our hands and exalt the Lord who is worthy of our praise.....` 

Hope that gives you some thoughts to go on.

[Dennis1209]

It might be beneficial to precisely define the meaning of “prophecy” as being used in this thread for better understanding, noun, adjective, or verb, along with gifts of the Spirit:

A. Noun.

propheteia (προφητεία, 4394) signifies “the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God” (pro, “forth,” phemi, “to speak”: see prophet); in the NT it is used (a) of the gift, e.g., Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10; 13:2; (b) either of the exercise of the gift or of that which is “prophesied,” e.g., Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 13:8; 14:6, 22 and 1 Thess. 5:20, “prophesying (s)”; 1 Tim. 1:18; 4:14; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Rev. 1:3; 11:6; 19:10; 22:7, 10, 18, 19.¶

“Though much of OT prophecy was purely predictive, see Micah 5:2, e.g., and cf. John 11:51, prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily, fore-telling. It is the declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means, Matt. 26:68, it is the forth-telling of the will of God, whether with reference to the past, the present, or the future, see Gen. 20:7; Deut. 18:18; Rev. 10:11; 11:3.…

“In such passages as 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20, the ‘prophets’ are placed after the ‘Apostles,’ since not the prophets of Israel are intended, but the ‘gifts’ of the ascended Lord, Eph. 4:8, 11; cf. Acts 13:1; …; the purpose of their ministry was to edify, to comfort, and to encourage the believers, 1 Cor. 14:3, while its effect upon unbelievers was to show that the secrets of a man’s heart are known to God, to convict of sin, and to constrain to worship, vv. 24, 25.

“With the completion of the canon of Scripture prophecy apparently passed away, 1 Cor. 13:8, 9. In his measure the teacher has taken the place of the prophet, cf. the significant change in 2 Pet. 2:1. The difference is that, whereas the message of the prophet was a direct revelation of the mind of God for the occasion, the message of the teacher is gathered from the completed revelation contained in the Scriptures.”*

B. Adjective.

prophetikos (προφητικός, 4397), “of or relating to prophecy,” or “proceeding from a prophet, prophetic,” is used of the OT Scriptures, Rom. 16:26, “of the prophets,” lit., “(by) prophetic (Scriptures)”; 2 Pet. 1:19, “the word of prophecy (made more sure),” i.e., confirmed by the person and work of Christ (kjv, “a more sure, etc.”), lit., “the prophetic word.”¶

C. Verb.

propheteuo (προφητεύω, 4395), “to be a prophet, to prophesy,” is used (a) with the primary meaning of telling forth the divine counsels, e.g., Matt. 7:22; 26:68; 1 Cor. 11:4, 5; 13:9; 14:1, 3–5, 24, 31, 39; Rev. 11:3; (b) of foretelling the future, e.g., Matt. 15:7; John 11:51; 1 Pet. 1:10; Jude 14.^[1]

 

 

---

^[1] Vine, W. E., et al. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, vol. 2, T. Nelson, 1996, pp. 492–93.

[Starise]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:06 AM, Marilyn C said:

Now I understand where you are coming from. We`ve been to some prophetic conferences too, mainly in the `90`s. And yes, Paul does say by the Holy Spirit that all may prophecy. That said the ministry of a Prophet is a different in that it is the person who prophecies in a greater sphere. The Prophet is one of the 5-fold Ministries of Christ to the Body of Christ. He works alongside the Apostle who has the Father`s heart and is not a CEO of an organization, (as some think).

The pictures etc are more in the line of `a word of knowledge.` Some times you can `read the mail,` as we call it, meaning you can get an understanding of the situation the person is going through. This is not always appropriate to blurt out but for your understanding so you can pray with understanding.

Let me give you a sharp example. In the early`80`s I was teaching in a town and took along another teacher to a special meeting. The speaker called this other teacher out the front and said, "You are like a jagged tin can....` Well, that went down like a ton of bricks, you can imagine. The speaker should have prayed into the situation having had that insight. eg -

"The Lord would say you are precious in His sight. And you feel the drawing of His Holy Spirit to know Him more.....` etc 

I have noticed from my grandmother`s prophecies that she kept, (they were typed in those days) that often the prophecy started with a scripture and then was expounded. perhaps you could practice saying a scripture of God`s character and then expounding it. eg.

`Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised.` As we praise the Lord this morning for He is a great God, and as we lift Him high in our midst we exalt Him. Exalt Him who is high above all, exalt Him who reigns over all, exalt the one who died for us, ....Let us raise our hands and exalt the Lord who is worthy of our praise.....` 

Hope that gives you some thoughts to go on.

Hi Marilyn,

Yes I am a fledgling at the gift and admit it. I would maybe have been further along had the churches I attended knew about it. Over here in the US, apparently many churches don't even recognize it.

I am almost finished with Graham Cook's book called " Developing Your Prophetic Gifting". Maybe you are familiar with him? He was a prophet from England who eventually helped to foster the gifting in churches here in the US. 

It isn't intended to be a front and center gift as many might imagine it, but associtaed with the other gifts as you say. Sometimes it's very utilitarian and not out in front.

My problem has been clearing my inner closet of any junk that may hinder the Spirit. It was described to me that awhile back I was like a bottle with a small neck, but the Lord is opening me up wider to recieve more. I didn't realize my ears were dull and that I needed to listen spiritually more. This was a personal prophecy to me by several prophets, or persons with the gift.

For the time being I keep most of my things to myself, and it isn't as if I get them all the time, but sometimes I see things I'm not quite sure what to do with them.

The problem I am having with this is I might see things I would prefer not to know about myself and others. So far I haven't. It can be difficult to decipher between human intuition and reading someone's mail. And I try to avoid anything negative about a person in public, I feel things about people which I think is more intuitive.

I am led to scriptures sometimes when I see things He gives me to see. Like seeing the burning rags. I think that was for me. My righteousness are as filthy rags. I certainly don't want to go too fast on this. I'm taking my time.

 

[Starise]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:55 PM, Dennis1209 said:

It might be beneficial to precisely define the meaning of “prophecy” as being used in this thread for better understanding, noun, adjective, or verb, along with gifts of the Spirit:

A. Noun.

propheteia (προφητεία, 4394) signifies “the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God” (pro, “forth,” phemi, “to speak”: see prophet); in the NT it is used (a) of the gift, e.g., Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10; 13:2; (b) either of the exercise of the gift or of that which is “prophesied,” e.g., Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 13:8; 14:6, 22 and 1 Thess. 5:20, “prophesying (s)”; 1 Tim. 1:18; 4:14; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Rev. 1:3; 11:6; 19:10; 22:7, 10, 18, 19.¶

“Though much of OT prophecy was purely predictive, see Micah 5:2, e.g., and cf. John 11:51, prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily, fore-telling. It is the declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means, Matt. 26:68, it is the forth-telling of the will of God, whether with reference to the past, the present, or the future, see Gen. 20:7; Deut. 18:18; Rev. 10:11; 11:3.…

“In such passages as 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20, the ‘prophets’ are placed after the ‘Apostles,’ since not the prophets of Israel are intended, but the ‘gifts’ of the ascended Lord, Eph. 4:8, 11; cf. Acts 13:1; …; the purpose of their ministry was to edify, to comfort, and to encourage the believers, 1 Cor. 14:3, while its effect upon unbelievers was to show that the secrets of a man’s heart are known to God, to convict of sin, and to constrain to worship, vv. 24, 25.

“With the completion of the canon of Scripture prophecy apparently passed away, 1 Cor. 13:8, 9. In his measure the teacher has taken the place of the prophet, cf. the significant change in 2 Pet. 2:1. The difference is that, whereas the message of the prophet was a direct revelation of the mind of God for the occasion, the message of the teacher is gathered from the completed revelation contained in the Scriptures.”*

B. Adjective.

prophetikos (προφητικός, 4397), “of or relating to prophecy,” or “proceeding from a prophet, prophetic,” is used of the OT Scriptures, Rom. 16:26, “of the prophets,” lit., “(by) prophetic (Scriptures)”; 2 Pet. 1:19, “the word of prophecy (made more sure),” i.e., confirmed by the person and work of Christ (kjv, “a more sure, etc.”), lit., “the prophetic word.”¶

C. Verb.

propheteuo (προφητεύω, 4395), “to be a prophet, to prophesy,” is used (a) with the primary meaning of telling forth the divine counsels, e.g., Matt. 7:22; 26:68; 1 Cor. 11:4, 5; 13:9; 14:1, 3–5, 24, 31, 39; Rev. 11:3; (b) of foretelling the future, e.g., Matt. 15:7; John 11:51; 1 Pet. 1:10; Jude 14.^[1]

 

 

---

^[1] Vine, W. E., et al. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, vol. 2, T. Nelson, 1996, pp. 492–93.

Hello Dennis,

Thank you for those concise references on prophecy.I do believe it is supposed to edify and help to build up the body of Christ.  Scripture clearly supports this premise.

Let me quote the main two references you used here to support the argument that prophecy is no longer functioning

From my understanding some of the things about prophecy have changed since OT days, but prophecy remains.

1 Cor. 13:8-9

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 

We see three things listed in verse 8

-words of knowledge

-prophecies

-tongues

What we see in verses 8-12 is that these things will eventually discontinue. When they cease? When we know in full.

Let me read further verses for a fuller picture of what this means.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

These further verses confirm they will cease when we know as we are known. When is that? After the Lord returns. The full canon of scripture does not let us know as we are known.

Also notice verse 9- For we know in part and we prophesy in part. This means that modern prophecy, even when done strictly according to the ways it should be done often only reveals a part of a thing, and may not reveal everything about it, so wisdom and discernment are needed to apply the correct intentions. This will always need to be confirmed by scripture and by other things.

For instance, you might get a word of prophecy that you will lead men, but no idea as to where or when.

Sometimes the Lord allows spot on prophecy. John Wimber, who had the gift, told the story of boarding a jet and while boarding he seen a man with a name on his head. He talked to the man and asked him if he knew of the name. It was a woman he had been committing adultery with. He turned white as a sheet when John went on to describe the very motel and what the clerk was wearing, what she looked like and the alias name they used at the motel. The man repented and was saved as a result.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Yes certainly there are false prophets. We see them on television a lot. All of the gifts should be checked and the men should all be above reproach. What I see happening is the church throws the baby out with the bath water here. The devil copies everything the Lord does and tries to make it look legit. Many churches make the assumtion it's all of the devil and will have nothing to do with any of it.

The gifts were never intended to be a circus show. They are a functional part of the body of Christ used to edify when used in balance with the word and in the right ways.

The modern church is many times quenching the very Spirit sent to help it.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Hi Marilyn,

Yes I am a fledgling at the gift and admit it. I would maybe have been further along had the churches I attended knew about it. Over here in the US, apparently many churches don't even recognize it.

I am almost finished with Graham Cook's book called " Developing Your Prophetic Gifting". Maybe you are familiar with him? He was a prophet from England who eventually helped to foster the gifting in churches here in the US. 

It isn't intended to be a front and center gift as many might imagine it, but associtaed with the other gifts as you say. Sometimes it's very utilitarian and not out in front.

My problem has been clearing my inner closet of any junk that may hinder the Spirit. It was described to me that awhile back I was like a bottle with a small neck, but the Lord is opening me up wider to recieve more. I didn't realize my ears were dull and that I needed to listen spiritually more. This was a personal prophecy to me by several prophets, or persons with the gift.

For the time being I keep most of my things to myself, and it isn't as if I get them all the time, but sometimes I see things I'm not quite sure what to do with them.

The problem I am having with this is I might see things I would prefer not to know about myself and others. So far I haven't. It can be difficult to decipher between human intuition and reading someone's mail. And I try to avoid anything negative about a person in public, I feel things about people which I think is more intuitive.

I am led to scriptures sometimes when I see things He gives me to see. Like seeing the burning rags. I think that was for me. My righteousness are as filthy rags. I certainly don't want to go too fast on this. I'm taking my time.

 

Hi Starise,

Yes, I do know of Graham Cook. I would say his book would be helpful. Not that I agree with all his eschatology. 

Now I mentioned the scripture as a starting point and then I led into a prayer, which we know is not a prophecy. However, if you do that over time you will get a flow so when you do receive a prophecy from the Lord your mouth is ready as having practiced as it were. Remember the gift comes through the vessel which isn`t a robot.

I believe the spiritual listening will develop as you practice with God`s word and praying out loud on that topic. 

Now we are both musicians and we know when God gives us a flow, however, we had to practice over the years, the notes, chords, arpeggios, keys, etc and thus our hands were `tuned. ` So now, I suggest, tune your mind and mouth to God`s word and get a flow.

all the best, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

I was just thinking about this and realise you are seeing prophecy more as for people and what God would say to them. That was not common many years ago. The prophetic that I grew up with was a message from God for the congregation. 

Both are good, though I tend to think too much emphasis is now placed on the personal prophetic and can easily turn into `fortune telling,` if you know what I mean.

Now, that is a good move to keep those `picture` to yourself. I suggest you ask God for the interpretation and then pray into that situation. That shows to God you are responsible but not looking for accolades. God will release your prophetic gift in His time.

[Michael37]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:52 AM, Starise said:

Maybe even more misunderstood than tongues generally speaking amongst mainline denominations.

Who would care to discuss this.

I have perused the file you PM'd me. I felt to wait for awhile before wading into it with you. 

I am familiar with all the material you supplied and it is standard to the prophetic ministry itself. 

Studying any topic of interest can bring great blessings and joy.

Practicing what has been studied can be a test of faith and patience.

Since you are seeking my advice about Prophecy, out of goodness and faithfulness, I will give it to you in a nutshell:

When used without the Fruit of the Spirit, the Gifts of the Spirit are abusive.

When used with the Fruit of the Spirit the Gifts of the Spirit are a blessing.