Does Heaven Actually Exist?

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Scott Free said:

That is absolutely true. I love your take on the matter. It ties into the following scriptures. I am not clear on what it exactly means by New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. We do not know the history of New Jerusalem before she encounters Earth, except that she was constructed and traveled to reach her destination.

"I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God's dwelling is with the human race." Revelation 21:2

Shalom, Scott Free.

It would be a good idea for one to investigate what "heaven," "heavens," "heaven's," and "heavenly" mean. I use these terms because they are the ones identified from the KJV by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

I'm not going into all of it just now, but know this: There are FIVE words so translated in the Scriptures: ouranos, ouranios, ouranothen, mesouraneema, and epouranios. They mean respectively, "[the]-sky," "of-[the]-sky," "from-[the]-sky," "middle-of-[the]-sky," and "of-above-[the]-sky."

When one reads a passage of Scripture, it's important to know what word is being used and how it relates to the context of the passage in which the word is found in Scripture.

We read Revelation 21:2 in the passage of Revelation 21:1-3:

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: οὐρανὸν καινὸν = "ouranon kainon" = "a-sky new") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: ὁ γὰρ πρῶτος οὐρανὸς = "ho gar prootos ouranos" = "the<->for first sky" = "for the first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: καταβαίνουσαν ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "katabainousan apo tou Theou ek tou ouranou" = "coming-down away-from the God out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: ἤκουσα φωνῆς μεγάλης ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "eekousa foonees megalees ek tou ouranou" = "I-heard a-voice loud out of-the sky"):  saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them (Greek: (Greek: Ἰδού, ἡ σκηνὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ σκηνώσει μετ᾽ αὐτῶν = "Idou, hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon kai skeenoosei met' autoon" = "Look, the tent of-the God with the men and he-will-tent with them"), and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God."

One may also remember that the author of Hebrews said, 

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: προσεληλύθατε Σιὼν ὄρει καὶ πόλει θεοῦ ζῶντος Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ = "proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos Ierousaleem epouranioo" = "ye-are-in-the-process-of-coming to Zion a-mountain and a city of-God living Jerusalem from-above-[the]-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels,

So, yes. The New Jerusalem is currently being built "above-the-sky" or in outer space, and "will come down away-from God out of-the sky" at the time when the earth is renewed. Of course, there is no gap of space between the sky or the atmosphere and the surface of the earth; therefore, the city will LAND upon the new earth. We are also told that ...

Revelation 21:10 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God (Greek: ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν μεγάλην, τὴν ἁγίαν Ἰερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ = "edeixen moi teen polin teen megaleen, teen hagian Ierousaleem katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou" = "he-showed to-me the city the huge, the holy Jerusalem coming-down out of-the sky away-from the God"),

And, we are also told that ...

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare (Greek: ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται = "hee polis tetragoonos keitai" = "the city four-cornered is-laid"), and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

We are also told, ...

Revelation 21:14, 18-20 (KJV)

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ... 18 And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones.

The first foundation [was] jasper (blood-red, the "bloodstone");
the second, sapphire (deep blue);
the third, a chalcedony (dark green);
the fourth, an emerald (bright green);
20 The fifth, sardonyx (brownish red and white striped);
the sixth, sardius (solid, brownish red);
the seventh, chrysolite (greenish yellow, "goldstone");
the eighth, beryl (light grey-blue);
the ninth, a topaz (yellow);
the tenth, a chrysoprasus (apple green);
the eleventh, a jacinth (orange);
the twelfth, an amethyst (purple).

I believe that the other foundations are levels of the city, but at least the first foundation should be upon the surface of the new earth. So, the first foundation and all the walls are made of jasper, the bloodstone! The only way into the city is "through the blood!"

We are also told, ...

Revelation 21:12-13, 21 (KJV)

12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. ... 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

So, each of the gates were made of one pearl, there were twelve gates in total, and each gate was guarded by an angel. Now, most pearls are ROUND like a ball and solid. And, we are also told, ...

Revelation 21:25 (KJV)

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

So, these round gates always remain open. So, what is their purpose? How would a round, solid gate open or close? May I suggest that they would "ROLL away from the gateway off to the side!" Thus, every one of these gates COMMEMORATES the RESURRECTION of our Lord, the "stone being rolled away from the door" and an angel guarding the entrance! Thus, each gate is a reminder that access to the city is through the Resurrection of the Messiah!

16 hours ago, Scott Free said:

"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name." Revelation 3:12

The portion of the verse above that says, "the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God," is this in the Greek:

... γράψω ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θεοῦ μου καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς πόλεως τοῦ θεοῦ μου τῆς καινῆς Ἰερουσαλήμ ἡ καταβαίνουσα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ μου ...

This transliterates to ...

... grafoo ep' auton to onoma tou Theou mou kai to onoma tees poleoos tou Theou mou tees kainees Ierousaleem hee katabainousa ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou mou ...

Which translates word-for-word into English as ...

... I-will-write upon him the name of-the God of-me and the name of-the city of-the God of-me the new Jerusalem the-[one] coming-down out of-the sky away-from the God of-me ...

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") doing the talking, of course.

Did that help?

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:31 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

@Retrobyter Shalom. 

The Heavenly Father was waiting to have children in Jesus Christ, sanctified and justified by his blood. Jesus had to die first before the Heavenly Father had any children. 

Ephesians 1:4-6.

4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 

5. he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

You're not wrong from this standpoint; however, that was just His DECISION to go ahead and make it happen in the Creation.

But, one should also keep in mind, if possible, other verses of Scripture before making one's conclusions, especially if one is in a position to teach it to others!

Luke 3:38 (KJV)

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Now, granted, the words "the son" here supplied four times by the translator were not in the Greek, but the implication is the same: Adam was FROM God as Seth was FROM Adam. So, in a sense, Adam WAS God's son.

So, Lukas was NOT wrong, nor was the translator. So, YHWH God also already decided that "Jesus had to die first" before the foundation of the world! It was already a "done-deal" in His decision!

So, yes, God also "predestinated us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ." But, just as Yeeshuwa` the Messiah actually had to be born and die to fulfill God's decision that "Jesus had to die first," so we individually have to actually come humbly to God for His work in our lives before we can become God's children. That actually makes His decision fulfilled.

So, I believe we're in agreement here. It's just important to remember which parts are "hypothetical," no matter HOW DETERMINED it was, and which parts are "actual" because the DEED WAS DONE. God's "hypothetical" is better than our reality, but He STILL had to "go through the motions" before it became HIS reality from HIS perspective. Otherwise, He could have just said, "THERE," and <poof!> He had "sons" instantly!

Oh, and btw, He doesn't SHARE His timing with ANYONE, except as much as He did through prophecy. That's none of OUR business! OUR responsibility is to accept Him.

[FJK]

A question:  If Heaven doesn't actually exist then what does?

[Scott Free]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When one reads a passage of Scripture, it's important to know what word is being used and how it relates to the context of the passage in which the word is found in Scripture.

Thank you, that was enlightening. I was able to answer the next question using said correspondence. That is the reference to "many mansions" and "other sheep folds." Finding He simply means "large house with many apartments" and "non-Jews." I do not mind being wrong in speculation. I prefer to overstep then backtrack than underestimate and not see the full extent.

Edited February 19, 2024 by Scott Free

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Scott Free said:

Thank you, that was enlightening. I was able to answer the next question using said correspondence. That is the reference to "many mansions" and "other sheep folds." Finding He simply means "large house with many apartments" and "non-Jews." I do not mind being wrong in speculation. I prefer to overstep then backtrack than underestimate and not see the full extent.

@Scott Free Word studies in Scripture are so rich and indeed inexhaustible. In the end they do relate to a definite body of sound doctrine centred upon the Person and Work of Christ.

[Scott Free]

40 minutes ago, farouk said:

Word studies in Scripture are so rich and indeed inexhaustible. In the end they do relate to a definite body of sound doctrine centred upon the Person and Work of Christ.

A pure and undefiled doctrine of Salvation is essential. My inquiry is about prophecy, requiring an open approach to empirical experience for meaningful interpretation. I see the creation stories as prophecy as well. Similar to the visions of Daniel and John, were diving for deeper meaning from the literal narrative is expected.

Edited February 19, 2024 by Scott Free

[farouk]

15 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

A pure and undefiled doctrine of Salvation is essential. My inquiry is about prophecy, requiring an open approach to empirical experience for meaningful interpretation. I see the creation stories as prophecy as well. Similar to the visions of David and John, were diving for deeper meaning from the literal narrative is expected.

I do think that for all the spiritualizing of meaning, sound doctrine does rest upon a bedrock of literalness to a very significant extent.

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Scott Free said:

Thank you, that was enlightening. I was able to answer the next question using said correspondence. That is the reference to "many mansions" and "other sheep folds." Finding He simply means "large house with many apartments" and "non-Jews." I do not mind being wrong in speculation. I prefer to overstep then backtrack than underestimate and not see the full extent.

John 14:2 Jesus is taking something that belonged to the Aaronic Priesthood the dwelling places for one, the rooms they could have been in the form of a motel which offers temporary accommodation for a few days, the structures that were around the Temple and they meant to accommodate the Priests during the time of their duty, one week twice a year, and the weeks of celebrations. to served in the ministry of the Temple.

Ezekiel 45:4  New International Version
It will be the sacred portion of the land for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and who draw near to minister before the LORD. It will be a place for their houses as well as a holy place for the sanctuary.

New Living Translation
This area will be holy, set aside for the priests who minister to the LORD in the sanctuary. They will use it for their homes, and my Temple will be located within it.

English Standard Version
It shall be the holy portion of the land. It shall be for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and approach the LORD to minister to him, and it shall be a place for their houses and a holy place for the sanctuary.

    *In Greek mone or monai which is to the accommodation of just the priest, him only and not his family during duty time. 

From that word we have the word "monastery". Accommodation for one person in a communal setting. Jesus said this having this background in his mind and foretelling that his disciples they will be part of the Royal Priesthood in the Heavenly before the Heavenly Father. 

Indicating that the Heavenly Father has been waiting for that moment from before the foundation of the world. Jesus called his disciples "the Royal Priests" serving before the Heavenly Father. 

John 14:2

New International Version
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

New Living Translation
There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?

English Standard Version
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Berean Standard Bible
In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

New King James Version
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Edited February 19, 2024 by Your closest friendnt

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:50 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

Shalom, @Retrobyter. 

I would appreciate if you are not carried away and post words like this is "PURE FICTION" when I have copy and paste something from the Bible. I did not like it at all. God bless. 

Shalom, @Your closest friendnt.

I'm sorry you take personal offense to my response; I only meant that the THEORY you presented has flaws. It gives haSatan FAR too much power and responsibility! And, it is based, I believe, on a definition of "spirit" that human beings have added to the simple word "ruwach" (translated into Greek as "pneuma") than the word is supposed to mean. So, when you said,

"... the one who was harvesting our Spirit and kept our Spirits at the time of our death," that gives haSatan FAR too much authority! See, you're supplying "he was interested to take and keep our Spirits. He did not care to take our bodies because they were dead and subject to decay. He can never take anyone while they lived because that it was impossible as the place where he took and kept the Spirits of the people was in the underworld. And the physical man while he lives cannot go through the earth and descend to the place where the dead were kept," and you need proof from Scripture to make such a claim. To date, I've never seen such proof. Instead, I see this coming from the concept of "Hades," both the god and the realm, coming from Greek mythology through the Greek philosophy incorporated into the "Church" during the 100's to 300's A.D!

This was neither in the Scriptures, nor is it even IMPLIED in the Scriptures! It's as fictional as is the Greek mythology behind it.

So, when you said, "The plan of God was to buy us back from the Devil, to redeem us from the Devil. The fact that we say to redeem us from the Devil that established that the Devil had the right to take us at the time of our death," I see this gives the Devil too much authority. He didn't have this right, nor does he have this power! He is neither the "king of the underworld," nor is he "the master of the dead!"

So, your conclusion that "This is all before the Cross, the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The people of the Nations of the world belong to the Devil while they yet lived but the Devil cannot take them as they are in their bodies he have to wait for them till the time when their physical body dies and then he can take their Spirits and God never contested that ordinance of things," also reads too much into haSatan's claim to the kingdoms over which he has had influence. It's like you've bought into the devil's claim to our Lord that he COULD give Yeeshuwa` "all the kingdoms" at the Lord's Temptation (at the beginning of His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews). But, one must remember that the devil is a LIAR! HE NEVER OWNED "all the kingdoms" to give to the Lord IN THE FIRST PLACE! So, my challenge is this: Where in the Scriptures does it say that "he can take their spirits" and "keep the Spirits of the people ... in the underworld"?

Then, you had to qualify this belief:

"Before the death of Jesus Christ, the Israelites, the people of God, were a Nation separated from the people of the world and at the time of their death they still belong to God as they belong to God while they lived, and all the time they continued to belong to Him because he was their God, all the time while they lived and after their physical death."

Now, THIS is the part that goes back to what I question: "They were gathered to Abraham their first Patriarch together with Isaac and Jacob and the twelve Patriarchs of the Nation of Israel. At the time of their death the Devil never contested Abraham for their Spirits because God had given them to him to be with him and keep them till the time of Jesus Christ who after his death he descended to them before he went to the children of the rest of the world preaching the good news of the Gospel to them the day of God's Jubilee who set the captives free to all who believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins right there as they were in their Spirits without their bodies because Jesus Christ redeemed them as they were. He redeemed their Spirits; he paid the price with his blood at the time of his death on the Cross."

This seems to be a merging of a couple of concepts that are assumed from "the rich man and Lazarus" account that Yeeshuwa` taught, recorded in Luke 16, and from misunderstood passages of Scripture, namely, 1 Peter 4:6 and Ephesians 4:8-10 (which comes from Psalm 68:18).

First, Luke 16 has our Lord's words. The best way to understand verses 19-31 is to look at the context from which it comes:

Luke 16:1-31 (KJV)

1 And he said also unto his disciples,

"There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him,

"'How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.'

3 "Then the steward said within himself,

"'What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.'

5 "So he called every one of his lord's debtors [unto him], and said unto the first,

"'How much owest thou unto my lord?'

6 "And he said,

"'An hundred (100) measures of oil.'

"And he said unto him,

"'Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty (50).'

7 "Then said he to another,

"'And how much owest thou?'

"And he said,

"'An hundred (100) measures of wheat.'

"And he said unto him,

"'Take thy bill, and write fourscore (80).'

8 "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

9 "And I say unto you, 'Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.' 10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided (sneered at; scoffed at; made fun of) him. 15 And he said unto them (the Pharisees),

"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16 "The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that (John's) time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

18 "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.

19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell (Greek: ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ = "en too hadee" = "in the unseen") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said,

"'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame!'

25 "But Abraham said,

"'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.'

27 "Then he said,

"'I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham saith unto him,

"'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "And he said,

"'Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.'

31 "And he said unto him,

"'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"

These are NOT disjoint thoughts! First, Yeeshuwa` was instructing His students (disciples) to be faithful in all their dealings to the best of their ability and be kind to as many as they could, and to make friends with those who were in good standing in the public; so that, if they fail in their work and lose their jobs, they have some good friends on which to count in times of need.

REMEMBER! All those who would still be alive were ALL about to go into the Diaspora just 40 years later! Yeeshuwa` knew this, but no one would have believed it at the time, if He had said it.

The Pharisees, who were a greedy lot, always wanting what others had, scoffed at Him, because it was THEIR belief (and practice) just to TAKE what they wanted from others, if they could (as they had been doing)!

It was TO THEM that Yeeshuwa` directed the account of the rich man and Eleazar ("Lazarus")! It was the POOR beggar that Yeeshuwa` named. The rich man is anonymous! He could have been any one of the Pharisees!

First, to the words about the rich man, He said he was "in hell" or "en too hadee." Yeeshuwa` didn't use the word, nor did the translator into Greek use the wrong word. The word is "hadee." which stems from "eidoo" meaning "I see" with the negative particle "a-" in front. Thus, the word means "the unseen." It only has the connection that it LOOKS like "Hadees," which is from the Greek mythology, stemming from the same source. Would the Messiah Yeeshuwa` the Son of god actually use a reference to the Greek god or his alleged underworld kingdom?! I don't think so! The Messiah and the translator were referring to the FUTURE "unknown!" 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, FJK said:

A question:  If Heaven doesn't actually exist then what does?

Shalom, FJK.

A VERY REAL and VERY LITERAL city called the "New Jerusalem" which will land upon a VERY REAL new earth, an earth made from the purged current earth. In the meantime, another thing that will actually exist in the REIGN OF THE MESSIAH over this earth! He will return and set up His throne in the current Jerusalem, reigning until He is sovereign over the entire earth. Then, He will turn the Kingdom over to His Father, and He will go on reigning over Israel FOREVER!

And, "heaven" does exist. It is the atmosphere of this planet, both now, and renewed around the future earth, as well.