Horns On Heads Of Beasts

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I appreciate you presenting your perspective as clear as you did. However, it is my strong persuasion that what Jesus stated what was prophetic as he looked over Jerusalem and wept knowing that the natural branch of the olive tree was soon to be broken off, for He knew the time was at hand, that they were about fill up the measure of their father’s sin with their own contribution unto it.

I agree

 

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Luke 19:41 - And when He came near, He beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If you had known, at least in this your day, the things which belong unto your peace! but now they are hid from your eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a trench about you and compass thee round, and keep you in on every side, 44 And shall lay you even with the ground, and your children within and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another; because you knew not the time of your visitation.

.....Matthew 23:31 Wherefore you be witnesses unto yourselves, that you are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill up then the measure of your fathers. 33 you serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you; all these things shall come upon this generation.

 

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Therefore, the judgment having been past upon them once the sacrifice was made, a brief duration of grace and mercy to gather in a few more by the spreading of the began and lasted to the time between the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 ad.

I agree

 

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

This was the removal of the functioning civil government of Israel and with definable geographical boundaries, as well as their end of their religious institute and economy, brought Israel which "was," to the place of being "was not." This was the breaking off the natural branch.

 

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

To me, we entered the Time of the Gentiles, and this stopped the prophetic timeline of Israel.

The prophetic timeline after 70 AD continues with the times of the gentiles, Lk 21:24, Rev 11:2.

How long do the times of the gentiles last? 70 AD until ..... 1967 when Jerusalem was under full control of Israel.

The times of the gentiles lasts for a symbolic 3 1/2 times/1260 days (Rev 12), 42 months (Rev 11:2), and in the years of men 1900 years ish.

 The numbers are symbolic.

--

You recognize the times of the gentiles beginning in 70 AD. There is no gap, the timeline continues through the times of the gentiles.

It's just that the times of the gentiles after 70 AD was a number of years that could not be calculated in the years of men, until after it was over.

What happens when the times of the gentiles end? Where are the prophecies that tell what happens after Jerusalem is restored?

The Revelation is centered on the time after 70 AD, which is the times of the gentiles, the restoration of Jerusalem, and what happens after Jerusalem is restored.

Seeing places in the Revelation where it shows Jerusalem restored completes the unbroken time line.

Examples would be the 6th trumpet, 2 witnesses, the Rev 12 woman.

-----

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

For as with the beast system through the ages, Israel which “was,” being cut off, “was not.” And timeline did not begin until once again Israel “yet is” and was rebirthed.

The beast in Rev 17 is the Roman Empire. The 10 horns grow out of Rome, but still are Rome, Rome divided as the Dan 2 statue also shows as the 10 toes.

John said that the 6th head "is" in his time of 96 AD, that would be Rome.

The 8th head is one of the 7. If it is one of the 7, then it also must be Roman.

It means that the "was, is, is not, yet is", beast is Rome and not the children of Israel. 

The unbelieving children of Israel are the Rev 17 woman who is burned by the 10 horns of the divided Roman Empire.

History now shows that is what happened.

 

3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

But thanks again for sharing. 

If you have an open mind for a different viewpoint and timeline, it would be pleasant to continue. If not that's fine.

[BlindSeeker]

@abcdef I would be willing to continue, but right now I have obligations and can't commit like I would like to for this. If you are patient I hope to be available later next week. We'll try then..

 

Stay blessable, on fire, and unburnable.

[Charlie744]

On 2/9/2025 at 7:29 PM, Triton57 said:

I'm keeping an open mind, yet there are some foundational ways of reading scripture I've learned to be cautious of. One of those is giving any credulity to chapter and verse separations, which seems to be a focus in your interpretation. There seems to be a need to use 34 and 35 as a logical split defining two different times separated by several thousand years.

The metal man image given to Nebuchadnezzar serves as God's blueprint for His plan of salvation, not only for the Jews being restored to Jerusalem but also for all of mankind. God has given us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea. Certainly there are thousands of nations and kingdoms that will come after these 4 and there were many others during their time, but God is presenting us with His plan of salvation and He is going to include those kingdoms, actors and events that He deems it necessary to present His plan / prophecies, messages. Most folks attempt to interpret Daniel by having it sit on the left side of the table with our history books on the right side of the table. They go back and forth between the verses in Daniel and immediately look to find the historical equivalent in our flawed history books. God is not interested in recounting our historical events. He has decided to include and exclude those actors, kings, kingdoms, events that serve His purpose in the Book of Daniel. He has kept all of them to a minimum so we can concentrate on what He has put in front of us. We make a big mistake when we take out our history books... The book of Daniel was written for the Jews and God would ensure it was included in the Tanakh and available for them to interpret the coming of the Messiah in the first century. There would be no extra-biblical records or "history books" needed by the Jews to help interpret Daniel and the coming of the Messiah. 

Thus, these 4 kingdoms will be the only 4 kingdoms we need to consider until the time of the end. In the Dream Sequence of chapter 2 God reveals this 4 kingdom blueprint with all of its restrictions, guidlines, borders and boundaries, and actors for us to honor. This teaching method or way of presenting His plan is to provide us with the summary of events firs (the Dream sequence) and follow with the "Interpretation Sequence." These verses represent the "details" that must be placed within the "Dream Sequence." Meaning, they are not given t0 us in chronological order - and this has caused so much misinterpretation since these verses will certainly ot follow those attempts to match these verses in our history books. This method of presentation is also found in the later chapters of Daniel and i Revelation. 

The Dream Sequence of chapter 2 includes really only 6 elements - it provides us with the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will be considered in all of Daniel as well as i Revelation. Then, it gives us the two events that will take place - the only two actions within the Dream Sequence. It is the first coming of the Messiah i verse 34 and His return i verse 35. These 6 elements represent the complete blueprint / structure from Babylon to His return. Everything within Daniel and Revelation takes place within the borders and boudaries of these 4 kingdoms. We are not to add to or take away from this blueprint. 

Verse 34 represents the "Stone," Jesus, coming in the first century. His plan is mot to come as a conquering king and destroy the Romans - as the Jews believed, but as a suffering servant who would divide. The Stone would strike the feet of the image - but mot the toes or another part of the image, and break into pieces the iron and clay elements only. He certainly did mot come to destroy the 4 kingdoms but establish His church on the earth. Symbolically, the 4th iron kingdom or pagan Rome was comprised of the iron legs as well as the iron feet (all one kingdom of Rome). However, His plan of restoration was two fold - to restore His people back from Babylon for His first coming as well as the greater plan to restore mankind back to the Garden. Within this symbolic 4th kingdom of pagan Rome He would present His people, the Jews within the feet of the image as clay - symbolically usig clay as a metaphor for mankind (but specifically, His people). They were shown within these Roman feet as they were a conquered and controlled people. The 10 toes are also highly symbolic as they too were to be found along side the "clay" and had a tremedous symbolic meaning - they were / are mot meant to represent 10 kingdoms or secular powers. But because they existed before the Stone struck the feet (cross) and they could not be identified anywhere i our history books, both the 10 toes as well as verse 34 were thrown far into the end times. They do not belong i the end times but exactly where they are to be found - they existed before and after the "Stone" (Messiah) symbolically struck the feet of the image (cross). The 10 toes represent God's 10 commandments that were also found symbolically encased or locked up with His people in the iron feet of pagan Rome. Jesus didn't come to war with Rome but would divide the clay and the iron components within the feet only. And He did not strike the toes - of course. This most important event i the history of mankind would divide time and His people so He could select those of the "clay" that would accept Him as their Messiah and go out and preach to the world the Good news throughout the Roman Empire. Thus, this ends the interpretation of the Dream Sequence - with the remaining verse 35 to be fulfilled at His return. Thus, ALL verses, actions, actors, events, etc., found in Daniel will take place within these Dream Sequence verses _ with the final event of verse still in the future

[Charlie744]

On 2/9/2025 at 7:29 PM, Triton57 said:

I'm keeping an open mind, yet there are some foundational ways of reading scripture I've learned to be cautious of. One of those is giving any credulity to chapter and verse separations, which seems to be a focus in your interpretation. There seems to be a need to use 34 and 35 as a logical split defining two different times separated by several thousand years. Yet the separations as we know them were introduced around 1227 AD. Prior to that it was just unseparated text bound together. Now if we transport ourselves back to a time before chapter and verse separations, is there any logical reason to split the meaning across time as you do?

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

The stone hits the image on the feet, breaks them to pieces, then become like chaff blown by the wind and are not found anymore. Meanwhile, the stone becomes a great mountain that fills the whole earth. To me, a reading of the text as intended does not denote any kind of separation, it becomes a sentence spoken to the king revealing the dream he forgot. That the image is mentioned being broken two sentences in a row doesn't denote for me any kind of distinction, just repetition as is often done in speaking.

Some good examples from elsewhere that chapter and verse separations cause people to miss important narratives are Daniel 11:40-12:1 and Revelation 19:11-20:6. These are usually more commonly missed because they are chapter separations and sometimes people focus on subjects by chapter or only read chapters at a time.

In the case of Daniel 11-12, the connection between the conquering of the false christ and his death in Daniel 11:40-45 are disconnected from the very next sentence tying the time of his death to the abomination of desolation and unparalleled time Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-29, Mark 13:14-23 and Jeremiah 30:4-7 speak about. This can completely sever the connection of John's vision of the head the dies and lives again, that is the 7th and becomes the 8th head, or king.

Likewise, some focus on the binding of Satan and the millennium separate from Christ's return in glory in chapter 19 where the beast and false prophet are defeated and cast into the lake of fire. While a likely smaller subset miss this, the depiction is important to understand the order of the prophetic narrative.

So I can keep an open mind to a point that I take God at His Word with a logical mind and eliminate as much of man's interpretation. Now I don't think that chapter and verse separations are bad, I would be lost without them. I just don't put any significance to them aside from finding a scripture based on agreed upon separations so we're all on the same page.

I agree that Daniel 2 covers the time from Babylon to eternity in a generic way. Specifically it defines the earthly temporal kingdoms from Babylon to Rome and the spiritual eternal kingdom of God from Rome to eternity with the everlasting kingdom of God. The fact that the kingdom fills the whole earth and we know Yeshua will establish His kingdom on earth for 1,000 years before eternity would seem to suggest that the ultimate fulfillment of this vision regarding the temporal fulfillment will come when Yeshua does.

And so in this generic sense I agree that all prophecy from Babylon forward in all of scripture is taking place within the timeframe of this vision. However, the details of other prophecies are not revealed in what this vision actually was. There are some elements like the order of kingdoms we can connect with John's vision of the 8 heads of the Dragon through time, but there are also attempts to do things like compare Daniel 7's 4 beasts to the four metals and lock them similarly to the kingdoms of Babylon through Rome/revived Rome.

In my view this is a mistake built off the general assumption that the mention of the fourth kingdom and iron and 10 that is destroyed at Christ coming. It feels like a lot of valid associations, I used to feel this way. But when you examine Daniel 7 by itself very carefully, some very important distinctions are made that cause it to be temporally mutually exclusive from the kingdoms that Daniel 2 is talking about. And further seeing that the way these four beasts are only ever mentioned together in one other place in John's vision of the Dragon at the end locks all four of the contemporaneous beasts to the end times just before Christ's return.

But what's amazing is that seeing Daniel 2 and 7 temporally separated doesn't conflict with the interpretation of anything. Indeed it reveals a series of foreshadows Yeshua Himself pointed out in Matthew 24:15 when He pointed to Daniel to understand the abomination of desolation.

So while Daniel 2 covers a vast expanse of time, I think we need to be careful about using the limited information in that vision to make associations that don't have a solid foundation. As I mentioned before, each vision must be examined on its own and defined first within itself before looking out at other prophecies to define it. With each one approached like this, many times they define themselves and associations are made, but I've found the common revived Roman Empire paradigm that I once held has some clay mixed in that make it weak, and further examination makes it crumble.

It's very interesting you mention the misunderstanding that the Jews had when Yeshua didn't conquer Rome, at least not as they expected it. I too think Daniel 2 reveals the kingdom of God has conquered Rome, although not as many expected it. I think scripture points to a deception for the Jews that is achieved through giving them what they desire in the way they desire it, a poison pill encased in some truth. I went off on a whole tangent on this idea that I took out, but may get into later.

Regarding Yeshua not coming to destroy but divide, what scriptures are you referring to for this?

It seems that you are focused very much on the verses to define timelines. As I mentioned, I don't view chapter and verse designations as sacred or prophetic. This underlying foundation of how I interpret scripture will likely limit my ability to accept your conclusion, not because I'm unwilling to examine it, but because I have examined it.

We agree that the striking of the image and its destruction is not immediate, but Daniel 2:34-35 are not differentiated in my mind because they simply speak of the same event. The feet of iron and clay, just as the toes that are part of feet as evidenced from the interpretation in verses 40-43, they are, like the feet, made of iron and clay. The toes are specifically called out being the very end of the statue as the kingdom being partly strong and partly broken. The toes are part of the 4th kingdom just as the feet and just as the legs. All are the 4th kingdom, but the toes represent the end of it, divided and broken.

That the stone strikes the feet and the toes are called out separately actually points to the establishment of the kingdom and its initial growth in 30 AD before the toes are called out later. I don't know about everyone else, but I believe the whole image is destroyed when those two elements are struck because Daniel tells the king that "the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them." Because I can't justify verse separation as prophetic, it seems clear that all elements of the image are destroyed when the two elements of the image are struck and following that they are carried away and no place was found for them. If the image is broken and not found, that to me is the definition of utter destruction.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction between pottery clay and ceramic clay. Daniel 2 is the only place where "pottery" clay and "miry" clay are presented and they would seem to be a distinction without a difference. I would be curious to see where your distinction lies in that.

I agree that there is a distinction between faithful Jews that accepted Yeshua and unfaithful Jews that were blinded to the truth of the arrival of the Messiah. This has continued on through time as some Jews have come to know Yeshua as the Messiah, while others hold to the interpretations of men explicitly working to reject Yeshua as the Messiah. These are still waiting for the Messiah who already arrived.

However, I don't understand the distinction in clay as it relates to the fourth kingdom of the image to which both the clay and iron belong. Israel was never part of Rome except that they had no choice, just as they were not part of Babylon or Greece. However, there was no clay introduced in those kingdoms even though the prophetic narrative that included Israel was distinctly present in them.

I agree that Daniel 2:34 is the cross in 30 AD, the establishment of the kingdom, I just see verse 35 in the same sentence and context. As you mentioned previously, it wasn't an immediate breaking up. If 1,000 years is as a day to the Lord, it took a good 9-33 hours after the stone struck the image for it to no longer exist. Either way, per verse 35, the statue is gone as of today, which I believe we can see with our own eyes. As I mentioned before, I don’t see the Roman Catholic Church, or Papal Rome, as a valid sit in for the political government of the Roman Empire, it's a different thing entirely.

I hinted at it before, but the image is a progression of kingdoms through time. As such, the higher the image the older it is and the toes would be the very end of the image. That the stone struck the feet would indicate that there was still part of the kingdom that would exist after the feet were struck.

The feet and toes are both iron (Rome's strength) and clay (Rome's weakness) mixed together. While Rome always had its internal conflict, the time from around 27 BC under Augustus began a 200 year period of Pax Romana and a sense of unity in the kingdom. The Star of Bethlehem: The Star That Astonished the World by Ernest L. Martin goes into this a bit in light of the signs in the heavens that occurred around the birth of Christ.

It seems clear that just as the progression of kingdoms went through time, so would the ratio of iron to clay go over time. While the stone struck the feet, the Roman Empire was still mostly strong historically. It wasn't until around 50 years after the putting down of the final Bar Kokhba Revolt, when the Jewish-Roman Wars finally ended. As Daniel 9:26 stated, "the people of the prince that shall come [Titus] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;[70 AD] and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war [Jewish-Roman Wars 63-136 AD] desolations are determined."

It is verse 42 that would seem to point to the later growing weakness of the toes that come after the feet at the end of Pax Romana. Rome went "from a kingdom of gold to one of iron and rust." [Roman History by Cassius Dio p. 72.36.4] The  once strong iron legs were getting weaker over time.

In verse 43 we see what I believe Chris White speaks of in his Daniel commentary of the final death throes of the Rome the vision is speaking of, where royal intermarriage between the East and West are attempted to keep the kingdom strong, but the West is consumed.

Verse 44 states that it is in the days of these kings that God sets up a kingdom. Clearly we can't get too dogmatic about the exact year, month, and day in terms of which kings are being spoken of, it seems a more generic idea that during the various kings at the end of the Roman Empire that the kingdom of God consumes them. And in 380 AD Nicene Christianity was made the state church of the Roman Empire. While the pagan/papal Rome clearly did not live up to the true teaching of Christ, the foundation was based on the same scripture, interpreted to control the people much of the time. 100 years later the Western Roman Empire was gone. Israel as a nation was several hundred years removed and disbursed into the world. With the later reforms and accessibility of the text to the masses, Christianity consumed the hearts and minds of those with ears to hear and the stone that established and defined the kingdom grew into a mountain that is filling the earth to this day.

I would love to support you by purchasing a copy, what is the name of the book and perhaps others might also be interested. Sorry if you mentioned the title and I missed it.

There are so many points of discussion within your response.... I think we might discuss one at a time.

Daniel 2:41- from my commentary 

41And whereas thou saw the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou saw the iron mixed with miry clay..

The fourth kingdom begins with pagan Rome (verse 40) and will continue in various forms until the end of time. This period encompasses part of the second-time bracket and the entirety of the third-time bracket within God's plan of salvation. The second-time bracket covers the seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, which starts during the Medes-Persian Empire after the Jews return to Jerusalem (457 BC) and concludes 3.5 years after the cross, around 33/34 AD.

The third and final time bracket begins after the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy and continues until the end times, culminating in the second coming of the Messiah. This final period includes the remaining 400 years of the pagan Roman Empire. In the late fifth century AD, pagan Rome transitions into Papal Rome, representing the divided form of the fourth kingdom. This transition signifies a shift in power and influence, from the unified pagan Rome to the fragmented Papal Rome, which continues to exert its influence throughout history until the end times.

God has revealed a deliberate yet enigmatic method for understanding the events and transitions within the fourth kingdom of Rome, both before and after the stone strikes the feet. His use of symbolism in Daniel’s vision is intentional and structured, revealing profound truths that require careful interpretation. Rather than providing every step explicitly, God gives us key pieces of the puzzle, requiring us to actively engage with His Word to fully comprehend both the dream sequence and its interpretation.

The dream sequence (Daniel 2:31-35) presents a broad prophetic vision, illustrating the material composition of pagan Rome before the cross. However, it does not immediately disclose the intricate shifts that follow, leaving much of the kingdom’s transformation veiled in mystery. To unravel this mystery, we must turn to the interpretation sequence (Daniel 2:41-45), where God provides detailed symbolic elements that clarify the kingdom’s evolution.

A critical aspect of God’s prophetic structure is His deliberate use of iron and clay—not only to define the fourth kingdom’s composition but also to signal whether the prophecy refers to pagan Rome before or after the cross, or Papal Rome after the cross. By positioning iron or clay in a superior role, God marks which phase of the kingdom is being described.

·      Before the cross, iron dominates (Daniel 2:33), symbolizing pagan Rome’s military strength and control over God’s people (ceramic clay).

·      After the cross, the order reverses—clay takes precedence over iron (Daniel 2:41a), marking the rise of the Church within the empire and its eventual transition into Papal Rome.

These shifts in placement serve as prophetic indicators, illustrating how the fourth kingdom evolves from a purely political and military empire into a religious-political system that exerts power in a new way. It should also be mentioned that these transitions take place over the next 500 years after the cross. Further, during this transition period, we will see pagan Rome move from a purely Imperial Empire to one that will embrace Christianity at the time of Constantine and then end with Papal Rome in power.

By connecting the interpretation sequence with the dream sequence, we uncover hidden relationships, structural shifts, and defining characteristics that reveal how pagan Rome before the cross transitions into Papal Rome after the cross. God’s use of iron and clay, and His purposeful positioning of each element, acts as a prophetic roadmap, guiding us through the transformation of the fourth kingdom.

This method requires diligent examination, as each symbolic detail functions as a puzzle piece, revealing the interplay of political, religious, and spiritual transformations within Rome. The vision in Daniel 2 is not merely a historical forecast—it is a layered, symbolic revelation, requiring us to connect the dream and interpretation sequences to fully grasp God’s prophetic blueprint.

Before examining Daniel 2:41-45, it is essential to recognize that God’s revelation is structured with purpose. His symbolism unveils truth, and the interpretation sequence is more than an explanation. By following this deliberate and symbolic design, we gain a profound understanding of the fourth kingdom’s evolution and its role in prophetic history.

The next few verses in Chapter 2 are quite complex and require careful interpretation. Verse 41 has four parts that require specific attention:

41a: "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and iron,"

41b: "The kingdom shall be divided,"

41c: "Yet the strength of the iron shall be in it,"

41d: "Just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic (miry) clay,"

These elements provide a framework for understanding the divided nature and enduring strength of the fourth kingdom.

41a and 41B 

In Daniel 2:33 of the dream sequence, the feet of the fourth kingdom are described as being partly iron and partly clay—in that order—but without any mention of the toes or the specific type of clay. At this stage, the feet represent pagan Rome before the Messiah arrives. Nebuchadnezzar, in his dream, sees the feet as a mixture of iron and clay, but the toes remain hidden from his view. Later, in Daniel 2:41d, Daniel clarifies that the clay within the feet is ceramic clay, a hardened and brittle material. This indicates that, to Nebuchadnezzar, the feet would have appeared as a solid structure of iron and hardened clay, completely encasing or hiding the ten toes that will later be revealed in Daniel 7.

The Messiah, represented by the stone cut without hands in Daniel 2:34, strikes these feet, breaking apart the iron and the ceramic clay. This impact does not destroy the entire image, but rather, it begins a symbolic process of division and separation within the fourth kingdom of Rome. The iron represents the Roman imperial power, and the ceramic clay symbolizes the Jews living under Roman rule. When the stone strikes, it breaks the hardened ceramic clay from the iron, allowing the Lord—the Potter—to take from it pieces of clay that He will shape and mold (Potter’s clay) as He desires.

This potter’s clay refers to those Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah and are transformed into the first followers of the Gospel. These faithful ones, shaped by God’s hand, become the foundation of the early Church, which then expands to include millions of Gentiles. The act of breaking apart the ceramic clay from the iron symbolizes the division (divided kingdom) within Rome—not its immediate destruction. Jesus Himself spoke of this purpose in Matthew 10:34, declaring that He had come to bring a sword, not peace, meaning His arrival would divide those who accepted Him from those who rejected Him.

A key detail emerges in Daniel 2:41a, where the order of the iron and the clay is reversed. Instead of being described as iron and clay, it is now clay and iron—signaling that the potter’s clay (believing Jews and later Gentiles) has taken a superior position to that of the iron within the Roman world. This shift marks the beginning of the Jewish-Christian movement, a growing force within the fourth kingdom that does not destroy Rome but transforms it from within. The division caused by Christ's coming does not immediately bring the empire to an end; instead, it sets into motion a movement that will reshape the spiritual landscape of the world.

The ceramic clay, on the other hand, represents those Jews who remain hardened in their rejection of Jesus. While some are molded into potter’s clay, ready for the Lord’s work, others remain unyielding, keeping with their pre-cross Jewish faith within the iron kingdom of Rome. The cross is the defining event that separates these two groups, causing the fourth kingdom to be divided—just as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 2:41.

Thus, the stone’s strike is not a moment of destruction, but of separation. It is the act that breaks apart the elements within the fourth kingdom, distinguishing between those who will carry forward God’s plan of salvation and those who will remain part of a crumbling empire. The final destruction of all earthly kingdoms, including Rome, does not come until Daniel 2:35, at Christ’s second coming. But Daniel 2:34 marks the pivotal moment when the fourth kingdom is spiritually divided—when the Messiah’s arrival changes the course of history forever.

[Revelation Man]

On 1/2/2025 at 1:36 PM, Triton57 said:

Given that Israel was in the diaspora since 70 AD, it's entirely possible that a man from the line of David could have a lineage that dwelt in Syria, but I don't think it's possible given the context of the 70th week toward redeeming Israel that they will be fooled by an anointed one coming from anywhere else but the line of David.

 

This has nothing to do with Syria, this little horn has THREE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES that have to all mesh together. 

The Assyrian is in reference to the Old Assyrian Empire, mostly Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey now with a very small slice of Syria mixed in. So, yes this man will have Old Assyrian blood in him, CHECK, Isaiah 10 so much as says this..........BUT, we have two other Prophetic data points that have to also become reality. 

Dan. 8:9 mandates this Little Horn must be born in Greece because of the Directions he conquers in. He conquers TOWARD the East or Seleucus/Turkey and TOWARDS the South or Ptolemy/Egypt and TOWARDS Israel. So, since God gave us, on purpose, a four way directional map via four generals, we can see he must conquer from the Northwest Corridor of these four generals kingdoms. Thus he has to be born in Greece and LOOK AT Dan. 11, why do people think we get every Greek King from Alexander the Great to Antiochus, and finally the AC (11:36-45) ? Because he is a Greek born man.

Lastly, Dan. 7:7-8 also has to fulfilled, he has to arise to political power via the 10 horns (Completion =  10) that arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head (Complete Europe Revived = the E.U.). 

And lets shrink this down, a man with a Family that migrated from Turkey to Greece at some point in the last 2500 years, is born in Greece (in the last 40-60 years IMHO) which is in the E.U. and thus he is eligible to become the E.U. President. 

Prophesy solved. I wrote a blog on this 10 years ago. 

 

By the way, the 2300 is not 2300 days but 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices, the scripture says so, and since that is a twice a day event it is thus 1150 days, which fits inside the Beasts 1260 day rule. 

Edited yesterday at 10:04 PM by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

On 3/19/2025 at 3:08 PM, Revelation Man said:

Dan. 8:9 mandates this Little Horn must be born in Greece because of the Directions he conquers in.

You say that Dan 8:9 MANDATES that the little horn MUST be born in Greece.......

BECAUSE OF THE DIRECTIONS HE CONQUERS IN.

 

Alright.... lets look at Dan 8:9. Lets be good Bereans and see if what you say is true by comparing your sayings with Scripture.

Dan 8:9 .... "Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn, which grew exceedingly great

1st .... toward the south

2nd .... toward the east

3rd ....  toward the beautiful land.

That's what Scripture says.

But you say .... He conquers....  1st... TOWARD the East or Seleucus/Turkey and 2nd .... TOWARDS the South or Ptolemy/Egypt and 3rd ... TOWARDS Israel.

I've brought this to your attention before, to which you said "that it really didn't matter if it was toward the south first or toward the east first"

Really?... It doesn't matter that a person changes God's Word?

Well, its certainly does matter. 

If the little horn is from Greece and first conquers toward the south, as scripture rightfully says, then the little horn would need ships to get his troops to where he was going, which in this case would be Egypt. 

That's why a person who has their own interpretation of scripture as it pertains to eschatology, is forced to switch a word here and there around, to make their view seem right.

Kinda like JW's do with Scripture. A little slight of hand. Change a word here or there, add a little, take away a little....  Who's really going to notice?

 

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You say that Dan 8:9 MANDATES that the little horn MUST be born in Greece.......

BECAUSE OF THE DIRECTIONS HE CONQUERS IN.

 

Alright.... lets look at Dan 8:9. Lets be good Bereans and see if what you say is true by comparing your sayings with Scripture.

Dan 8:9 .... "Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn, which grew exceedingly great

1st .... toward the south

2nd .... toward the east

3rd ....  toward the beautiful land.

That's what Scripture says.

But you say .... He conquers....  1st... TOWARD the East or Seleucus/Turkey and 2nd .... TOWARDS the South or Ptolemy/Egypt and 3rd ... TOWARDS Israel.

I've brought this to your attention before, to which you said "that it really didn't matter if it was toward the south first or toward the east first"

Really?... It doesn't matter that a person changes God's Word?

Well, its certainly does matter. 

If the little horn is from Greece and first conquers toward the south, as scripture rightfully says, then the little horn would need ships to get his troops to where he was going, which in this case would be Egypt. 

That's why a person who has their own interpretation of scripture as it pertains to eschatology, is forced to switch a word here and there around, to make their view seem right.

Kinda like JW's do with Scripture. A little slight of hand. Change a word here or there, add a little, take away a little....  Who's really going to notice?

 

For what it is worth.... Here is a cut out from the commentary for chapter 8:

 

Daniel 8:9

⁹And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the Glorious land.

Daniel also provides insight into the directional movements of each kingdom during its conquests. The narrative outlines that while the Medes-Persians would advance westward, the kingdom of Greece would expand eastward. Notably, despite the historical conquests of pagan Rome spanning across various regions, the text doesn't mention them. However, in verse 9, Daniel does provide the directions of the compass that the "little horn" would traverse in its conquests of peoples, nations, and languages. This intricate detailing underscores Daniel's prophetic vision's focus on the spiritual realm and the unfolding of divine purposes rather than merely chronicling historical events. Each symbol and direction serves to convey deeper spiritual truths and insights into the nature of earthly powers and their eventual destinies.

In Chapter 7, God employs a series of specific predatory animals to illustrate their aggressive nature towards humanity, symbolizing the manner in which they would conquer their adversaries. Each animal is carefully chosen to represent one of the four kingdoms identified in Chapter 2, ensuring their distinctiveness while maintaining continuity between the two chapters. Now, as the narrative progresses to Chapter 8, God shifts the focus to the prominent

powers or horns that will emerge. However, these horns are not presented in isolation. They are accompanied by three additional themes, strategically introduced to eliminate any ambiguity regarding their identity and their correlation to the kingdoms depicted in Chapters 2 and 7. This deliberate approach serves to reinforce the interconnectedness of the prophetic visions and to provide clarity on the unfolding divine plan.

In Chapter 8, even though Babylon is not explicitly mentioned, its role as the first kingdom to be conquered by the two-horned ram (Medes-Persians) is clearly understood. As the prophetic vision progresses, the focus shifts to the three subsequent kingdoms, each defined not only by their horns—symbols of power—but also by their directional movements, the nature of their influence, and their role within God's overarching plan of salvation. These four identifying factors serve to clarify the connection between the little horn in Chapter 7 and the one depicted here in Chapter 8.

By maintaining the boundaries and structural integrity established in Chapters 2 and 7, Daniel's vision weaves together historical and spiritual realities in a way that both solidifies the identity of these kingdoms and reveals God's divine hand guiding human history. The directional movements of the Medes-Persians advancing westward and the Greeks expanding eastward reinforce the prophetic precision of the vision. However, unlike in previous chapters, pagan Rome is not directly mentioned in Chapter 8. Instead, the focus is placed entirely on the little horn, which emerges after the fall of pagan Rome.

Daniel further distinguishes the little horn by describing its conquests toward the south, east, and the Glorious Land. The inclusion of the Glorious Land sets this power apart from the other kingdoms, emphasizing its unique nature and reach. Notably, this is the only horn that is described as moving not just horizontally across earthly territories, but also vertically, signifying an audacious challenge to both earthly and heavenly realms.

The phrase "Glorious Land" carries deep spiritual significance. Many assume it refers to physical Israel, Jerusalem, or an attack on God's people. However, by the time the little horn rises to full power, Jerusalem had already been destroyed, and its people scattered among foreign nations. If the Glorious Land merely referred to Jerusalem, then it would have already been captured by the southward and eastward expansions mentioned in verse 9.

Instead, the Glorious Land symbolizes heaven itself—the ultimate target of the little horn’s ambitions. This interpretation highlights the spiritual nature of the conflict, reinforcing that this is not just a struggle for territory and political power, but a war against God’s truth and sovereignty. The little horn’s vertical movement signifies its direct challenge against heaven, revealing a power that seeks not only to control the earth but also to usurp divine authority. Through these prophetic details, God unveils a greater reality—that human history is not merely a series of earthly struggles, but a spiritual battle between truth and deception, light and darkness, God's kingdom and the forces that oppose it.

The little horn of the fourth kingdom emerges as a relentless and malevolent force, directly opposing everything that aligns with God’s will. Unlike the kingdoms before it, which were defined by military conquest and political rule, this horn takes on an entirely different character, one that is both spiritually oppressive and hostile toward the divine. It is not merely another earthly kingdom, but a power that continues its assault on truth until the second coming of the Messiah. This wicked force will persist in its rebellion, working to distort, corrupt, and oppress, until it is finally destroyed by divine intervention—without human hands.

The imagery of the "four winds of heaven" further reveals the expansive nature of the little horn’s reach. While the four notable ones—the Greek generals who emerged from Alexander’s divided kingdom—spread toward the four winds, they do not cross into the domain of the fourth kingdom. Their movements are limited to the third kingdom of Greece. The little horn does not arise from Greece, nor is it connected to these generals in any way. Instead, it emerges after the division of the fourth kingdom—pagan Rome. It rises from the mingling of pottery clay, common clay, and iron, subtly attaching itself to the ten toes or ten horns of the fourth beast.

At first, this little horn holds no great power, but over time, it accumulates influence, taking centuries to fully develop. It slowly rises among the ten horns, eventually becoming the dominant force atop the fourth beast kingdom of Papal Rome. This methodical and insidious rise to power is key to understanding its nature. Unlike previous kingdoms that conquered through military campaigns, this horn manipulates, distorts, and redefines religious authority, using deception rather than force.

By the time it reaches its full power, it has transformed the very nature of worship, governance, and religious doctrine, presenting itself as the sole voice of divine truth on earth.

Contrary to some interpretations, verses 8 and 9 do not speak of Antiochus Epiphanes. The "four notable ones" refer to the four generals under Alexander, yet they are never called "horns." Instead, Daniel clearly identifies them as "notable ones," indicating their importance but not their alignment with the same prophetic structure as the horned kingdoms. Moreover, Antiochus Epiphanes does not meet the prophetic requirements of a horn. While he was a ruthless tyrant, his reign was short-lived and insignificant in the grand scope of world history. The second and third horned kingdoms—Medes-Persians and Greece—were led by rulers like Darius, Cyrus, and Alexander, men who founded empires, reshaped the world, and established lasting legacies. By contrast, Antiochus Epiphanes never held such power, nor did his influence extend beyond a limited regional conflict. His historical role is far too minor to fit within the prophetic framework of Daniel’s vision.

This little horn is something far greater and more insidious. It is not a single king, but a system of power that grows within the fourth beast kingdom. It will reshape worship, redefine truth, and claim divine authority, waging spiritual warfare against God’s saints. It persecutes the faithful, corrupts God’s Word, and stands in direct defiance of the Most High. Unlike previous empires that ruled with armies and kings, this horn rules with doctrine, decree, and religious control—a force that endures for centuries, surpassing all who came before it.

In verse 4, Daniel observes the two-horned ram, representing the Medes and Persians, becoming great. This signifies a notable rise to power and prominence. Verse 8 describes the one-horned goat, symbolizing Greece under Alexander the Great, growing very great. Here, we witness an even more substantial expansion of power and dominance. However, it's in verse 9 that the little horn emerges with unparalleled grandeur. Described as becoming exceedingly great, this horn represents a level of power and influence far surpassing its predecessors. The magnitude of its rise suggests a force of extraordinary significance, one that commands attention and warrants careful consideration. Indeed, when comparing the historical context, figures like Antiochus Epiphanes fall short of embodying the immense power and influence attributed to the little horn in Daniel's prophecy.

The differences between the prophecy and historical events highlight the symbolic and prophetic nature of Daniel's vision. This invites us to think more deeply about the spiritual messages it aims to share.

The delineation of each kingdom's God-given mission within His plan of salvation adds another layer of significance to the prophetic narrative in Daniel. Each kingdom is entrusted with a specific role that contributes to the unfolding divine purposes. Babylon's mission is characterized by its conquest of the Assyrians and its establishment as a safe haven for the Jews during their seventy-year period of punishment. Through its reign, Babylon provides a refuge for the Jewish people, offering them protection and stability during a tumultuous period of exile.

The Medes-Persians, in their conquest of Babylon, facilitate the return of the Jews to Jerusalem. Their reign marks a pivotal moment in Jewish history, as it allows for the rebuilding and restoration of the city, the land, the walls, the Temple, and their way of life. Under their rule, the Jewish people are granted the opportunity to reclaim their homeland and revitalize their cultural and religious practices.

Greece, viewed as instrumental in divine plans, is tasked with overcoming the Medes-Persians and rectifying the mistreatment suffered by the Jewish people before their Babylonian exile. Through their military might, Greece acts as a means for the liberation and empowerment of the Jewish community, seeking to right past wrongs and contribute to the fulfillment of God's ultimate plan for salvation. This depiction highlights the complex relationship between human actions and divine guidance, showing how historical events play a significant role in fulfilling God's plans on earth.

The four Greek generals who succeeded Alexander the Great were not among the four kingdoms foretold in Daniel's prophecy, nor were they assigned a specific part or mission within God's plan of salvation. Their historical roles, while significant in shaping the Hellenistic world, do not carry the same prophetic weight as the kingdoms outlined in Daniel's vision. Contrastingly, pagan Rome, as well as its successor, Papal Rome, and the little horn, play distinctive and pivotal roles within the divine plan. The little horn, emerging from pagan Rome after the time of the cross, stands as a formidable adversary against everything aligned with God—His people, His saints, and even God Himself.

This horn's actions include appropriating God's church, asserting claims of divinity, and perpetrating various forms of opposition to divine truth. As prophesied, the reign of the little horn extends until the culmination of time, concluding in its ultimate destruction without human intervention.

Following the crucifixion, the early Jewish/Christian church experienced both remarkable growth and profound persecution. The period spanning the 300 years after the cross was marked by upheaval rather than stability, with the fledgling movement facing significant challenges. Amidst this growth, four major centers of Gentile/Christian activity emerged: Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. Each of these centers proclaimed the Word of God and the Messiah, Jesus, yet they each had their own powerful bishops who were also contending for power and authority within the powerful Christian community. Confusion, conflict, and tumult characterized this era as factions within the church competed for dominance. Internal struggles, power struggles, and attempts at deception to gain control and authority were prevalent.

From among these centers emerged the figure of the bishop of Rome, who would ascend to the leadership within the church. He would come to be known as the Pope, head of the papacy and the little horn. The little horn's emergence from one of these turbulent centers underscores the context of turmoil and upheaval from which it arises. And should you have missed the connection, the little horn would come out of one of these four winds of turmoil, conflict, and troublesome times; he is the one who will come out of either Rome, Antioch, Alexander, or Jerusalem in the latter part of their kingdom.

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 4/4/2025 at 8:11 PM, JoeCanada said:

I've brought this to your attention before, to which you said "that it really didn't matter if it was toward the south first or toward the east first"

Really?... It doesn't matter that a person changes God's Word?

It doesn't matter because you can not comprehend the old writing styles at all. In many instances they named the last things first like in Rev. 13 where we get this.

Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

See that? Greece is first, followed by Persia and then Babylon the Lion. This blows your whole thesis out of the water my friend.

But also, he will not attack Israel last, he attacks TOWARDS Turkey First, as Dan. 11:40-43 shows he attacks MANY COUTRIES (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria) to get at Israel, then he attacks Israel before moving south. In Daniel its not relevant, just as Rev. 13's naming of the three beasts are not relevant, its all coming from your denial zone brother. We tend to grasp at any straw when our argument or debate point gets defeated, I know, I used to do the same thing. Then about 10 years ago I wanted to be led to the truth even of I was in  error, and now see that as a VERY GOOD THING, its called the Holy Spirit reproving us. 

My point is you grasp at straws and eschew the evidence in full. But lets get very TECHNICAL here, Cassander is in the pink, doesn't one have to go SOUTH before they can go EAST? I always took this to mean that out of the Four Generals he was from the Northwest Corridor, this he has to conquer from the Northwest and move southeast, to get to where he can then conquer the other Generals. 

This is a no brainer, there are only four generals, we know who all he conquers via Dan. 11:40-43. We know in Dan. 8:9 where he conquers from, and in Dan. 7:7-8 he comes up and out of the Fourth Beasts 10 horns that mean Complete Europe. You already have an answer, so anything else has to be wrong, even though it is not wrong. 

What you want to do is get lost in the weeds, that is not my style, I use scriptures to prove all my points. You follow people like Joel Richardson and his bad Muslim/Arab Anti-Christ ideas I guess.

Edited 18 hours ago by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

On 4/4/2025 at 6:11 PM, JoeCanada said:

I've brought this to your attention before, to which you said "that it really didn't matter if it was toward the south first or toward the east first"

Really?... It doesn't matter that a person changes God's Word?

It doesn't matter because you can not comprehend the old writing styles at all.

WOW!!!

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

In many instances they named the last things first like in Rev. 13 where we get this.

Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

See that? Greece is first

Oh I see. Because Greece is first in this scripture you find it ok to just switch things around in Dan 8:9, and then make this bold statement ... "Dan. 8:9 mandates this Little Horn must be born in Greece because of the Directions he conquers in."

Dan 8:9 does not mandate what you propose. The only one who mandates that is YOU... because it has to align with your false narrative.

""""" This blows your whole thesis out of the water my friend.""""" (revman)

It does nothing of the sort. But...

Feel free to change scripture around anyway that you feel fit to do so. If that makes you comfortable, then fly at my friend.

I will stick to the way scripture is written and then align my thoughts to it, and not the other way around.

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

I use scriptures to prove all my points