Horns On Heads Of Beasts

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 1:14 AM, Michael37 said:

Daniel's vision of four beasts in Daniel is obsolete by the time the kingdoms they represent are counted among the seven heads of the sea beast in John's vision in the Book of Revelation.

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Obsolete, or historical? If we were discussing the ceremonial and Levitical laws, I would feel comfortable with "obsolete," that that doesn't make them irrelevant in studying and appreciating them as types and shadows of Christ's Passion.  They are historical records, part of that which Paul encourage Timothy to give attendance to as able to make us wise to our salvation we have in Christ. The may not have application to our wisdom in rightly serving God today, but certainly they are still lively streams for understanding.

No, I cannot the four beasts as obsolete, or irrelevant, as they are history, and all of it is parts and pieces to the overall mystery of God.

After all, Paul quoted Habakkuk  - 

Hab 1:5 - Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
10 [who] shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.

Act 13:40  - Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Paul admonished them with this because he too knew what was coming upon his countrymen. Though Babylon was long gone, it wasn't insignificant for the Jews in being able to warn them of what Rome also was going to do to them.

Also, I myself told you that Egypt and Syria were not pertinent to the king or kingdom (Babylon) as God was continuing to prophesy of things shortly to come to pass...

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 1:36 AM, Michael37 said:

The wounded head that gets revived.

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So, you're including Revelation to Daniel?

[Michael37]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:55 PM, BlindSeeker said:

What specially do you mean by "Apocalyptic Scripture," as far as book of the Bible.

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For interested readers who may wish to refer to certain Scriptures as "Apocalyptic".

Biblical apocalyptic literature is a type of biblical literature that emphasizes the lifting of the veil between heaven and earth and the revelation of God and his plan for the world. Apocalyptic writings are marked by distinctive literary features, particularly prediction of future events and accounts of visionary experiences or journeys to heaven, often involving vivid symbolism. The Bible contains two books that are usually called apocalypses: Daniel and Revelation. There are also several sections of books that some scholars label apocalypses. Other important segments of apocalyptic literature in the Bible include Isaiah 56-66, Ezekiel 37-48, and Revelation 4-22. 

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biblestudytools.com+2

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 1:57 AM, Michael37 said:

From a literary perspective a metaphor stands alone in its context before any comparison with it is made. This is not just convention, it's common sense. I disengage from those who misappropriate "every mention" of a metaphor to prove some mangled interpretation of a passage.

Comparisons exist because the same or similar metaphor is used, but that doesn't mean the context is the same or even similar.

There are several examples in the Bible where similar imagery is used to convey different or even opposite meanings. Here are a couple of notable examples:

1. Lion:

   • Good: In Revelation 5:5, Jesus is referred to as the "Lion of the tribe of Judah," symbolizing His authority and power. > "Then one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.'"

   • Evil: Conversely, in 1 Peter 5:8, the devil is compared to a roaring lion seeking to devour. > "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

2. Serpent:

   • Good: In John 3:14-15, Jesus uses the imagery of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness to describe His own crucifixion and the salvation it brings. > "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."

   • Evil: In Genesis 3:1-5, the serpent is a symbol of deceit and evil, as it tempts Eve to disobey God. > "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, 'Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?...When you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'"

These examples highlight the importance of understanding the context in which metaphors are used to grasp their intended meanings.

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So,  you cannot acknowledge the use by the Spirit of God of various parts Daniel's four beast, even when the angel tells John that imagery of the seven-headed beast is multifaceted? That the four beasts of Daniel had defining features  which are reused in describing the beast In Rev 13:1.

It's just a similarity?

No prophetic relevance, just the first things that came to the Holy Spirit's mind while presenting a new metaphor?

I cannot but deny that your method of reasoning with me is seems more vague with me then your engagement with others. If you wish, I'll leave the thread.

[Triton57]

  On 2/9/2025 at 10:42 PM, BlindSeeker said:

 

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So what about a gold head equates to a lion, silver chest/arms to a bear, bronze belly/thighs to a leopard, or iron legs & feet of clay to the terrifying beast?

I know the 10 horns and toes are often associated because most feet have 10 toes. I know the fact that iron mixed in the 10 toes and iron teeth are often associated. But

Daniel 2:42
"And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

Daniel 7:7
"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns."

There seems to be a distinct difference in the 4th kingdom's toes that are partly broken with the iron teeth beast with 10 horns that is strong exceedingly. What do the metal parts of the image have to do with the animals?

Perhaps the comparison of Daniel 7 to Revelation 13 is where that connection is made because the animals are mentioned there and the beast with 10 horns. I actually hold to that view as well, there is an explicit link between these 4 beasts in Daniel 7 and John's vision in Revelation 13, the only other place where these 4 all exist.

However, Daniel 2 is explicitly tied to Babylon - Rome and if these 4 beasts in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 unified as one are at the end of the age, how can you say they are historical kingdoms? Is the suggestion that Babylon is represented as part of the end time false christ kingdom?

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 2:07 AM, Michael37 said:

For interested readers who may wish to refer to certain Scriptures as "Apocalyptic".

Biblical apocalyptic literature is a type of biblical literature that emphasizes the lifting of the veil between heaven and earth and the revelation of God and his plan for the world. Apocalyptic writings are marked by distinctive literary features, particularly prediction of future events and accounts of visionary experiences or journeys to heaven, often involving vivid symbolism. The Bible contains two books that are usually called apocalypses: Daniel and Revelation. There are also several sections of books that some scholars label apocalypses. Other important segments of apocalyptic literature in the Bible include Isaiah 56-66, Ezekiel 37-48, and Revelation 4-22. 

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biblestudytools.com+2

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Michael37,

This is what I mean, you quoted my post, yet respond with "To those who are interested..."

Clearly I am interest as I've been reading the whole thread and have asked question of almost all contributors.  

Which why I clarified which Books you were referring to as pertinent.

 

[Triton57]

  On 2/7/2025 at 8:16 PM, Charlie744 said:

That was one heck of a terrific response! Thank you for taking the time and consideration you obviously spent on it.

I will have to spend some time responding to this - hopefully this evening, but for now, I would simply ask that you might continue to keep an open mind regarding 2:34 as it relates to the Messiah’s first coming and 2:35 is His second coming.

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I'm keeping an open mind, yet there are some foundational ways of reading scripture I've learned to be cautious of. One of those is giving any credulity to chapter and verse separations, which seems to be a focus in your interpretation. There seems to be a need to use 34 and 35 as a logical split defining two different times separated by several thousand years. Yet the separations as we know them were introduced around 1227 AD. Prior to that it was just unseparated text bound together. Now if we transport ourselves back to a time before chapter and verse separations, is there any logical reason to split the meaning across time as you do?

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

The stone hits the image on the feet, breaks them to pieces, then become like chaff blown by the wind and are not found anymore. Meanwhile, the stone becomes a great mountain that fills the whole earth. To me, a reading of the text as intended does not denote any kind of separation, it becomes a sentence spoken to the king revealing the dream he forgot. That the image is mentioned being broken two sentences in a row doesn't denote for me any kind of distinction, just repetition as is often done in speaking.

Some good examples from elsewhere that chapter and verse separations cause people to miss important narratives are Daniel 11:40-12:1 and Revelation 19:11-20:6. These are usually more commonly missed because they are chapter separations and sometimes people focus on subjects by chapter or only read chapters at a time.

In the case of Daniel 11-12, the connection between the conquering of the false christ and his death in Daniel 11:40-45 are disconnected from the very next sentence tying the time of his death to the abomination of desolation and unparalleled time Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-29, Mark 13:14-23 and Jeremiah 30:4-7 speak about. This can completely sever the connection of John's vision of the head the dies and lives again, that is the 7th and becomes the 8th head, or king.

Likewise, some focus on the binding of Satan and the millennium separate from Christ's return in glory in chapter 19 where the beast and false prophet are defeated and cast into the lake of fire. While a likely smaller subset miss this, the depiction is important to understand the order of the prophetic narrative.

So I can keep an open mind to a point that I take God at His Word with a logical mind and eliminate as much of man's interpretation. Now I don't think that chapter and verse separations are bad, I would be lost without them. I just don't put any significance to them aside from finding a scripture based on agreed upon separations so we're all on the same page.

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If you consider JUST the verses in the “Dream sequence” you might agree they present God’s plan from Babylon to His return. This is the big picture for all of the 12 chapters. Everything within Daniel AFTER this very brief and compacted summary will be found within these brief verses. So, we have the beginning time bracket at Babylon at 606 BC, and the ending time bracket at (soon) - 2:35.

Therefore, ALL actors and events found within the prophecies in Daniel are within these 2 time brackets.

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I agree that Daniel 2 covers the time from Babylon to eternity in a generic way. Specifically it defines the earthly temporal kingdoms from Babylon to Rome and the spiritual eternal kingdom of God from Rome to eternity with the everlasting kingdom of God. The fact that the kingdom fills the whole earth and we know Yeshua will establish His kingdom on earth for 1,000 years before eternity would seem to suggest that the ultimate fulfillment of this vision regarding the temporal fulfillment will come when Yeshua does.

And so in this generic sense I agree that all prophecy from Babylon forward in all of scripture is taking place within the timeframe of this vision. However, the details of other prophecies are not revealed in what this vision actually was. There are some elements like the order of kingdoms we can connect with John's vision of the 8 heads of the Dragon through time, but there are also attempts to do things like compare Daniel 7's 4 beasts to the four metals and lock them similarly to the kingdoms of Babylon through Rome/revived Rome.

In my view this is a mistake built off the general assumption that the mention of the fourth kingdom and iron and 10 that is destroyed at Christ coming. It feels like a lot of valid associations, I used to feel this way. But when you examine Daniel 7 by itself very carefully, some very important distinctions are made that cause it to be temporally mutually exclusive from the kingdoms that Daniel 2 is talking about. And further seeing that the way these four beasts are only ever mentioned together in one other place in John's vision of the Dragon at the end locks all four of the contemporaneous beasts to the end times just before Christ's return.

But what's amazing is that seeing Daniel 2 and 7 temporally separated doesn't conflict with the interpretation of anything. Indeed it reveals a series of foreshadows Yeshua Himself pointed out in Matthew 24:15 when He pointed to Daniel to understand the abomination of desolation.

So while Daniel 2 covers a vast expanse of time, I think we need to be careful about using the limited information in that vision to make associations that don't have a solid foundation. As I mentioned before, each vision must be examined on its own and defined first within itself before looking out at other prophecies to define it. With each one approached like this, many times they define themselves and associations are made, but I've found the common revived Roman Empire paradigm that I once held has some clay mixed in that make it weak, and further examination makes it crumble.

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The most important event and actor in OUR HISTORY is of course Jesus. And His first coming did not come as the Jews expected- a conquering king who would save His people and destroy the Romans- He did not come to destroy but to divide. Thus, His people - symbolically presented as “Clay” subjugated within the feet of the Roman Empire would not be a military like event. He did come to save His people but in a very different way!

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It's very interesting you mention the misunderstanding that the Jews had when Yeshua didn't conquer Rome, at least not as they expected it. I too think Daniel 2 reveals the kingdom of God has conquered Rome, although not as many expected it. I think scripture points to a deception for the Jews that is achieved through giving them what they desire in the way they desire it, a poison pill encased in some truth. I went off on a whole tangent on this idea that I took out, but may get into later.

Regarding Yeshua not coming to destroy but divide, what scriptures are you referring to for this?

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Symbolically, He would strike the feet (only) and break apart (not destroy) the image (especially it is noted that pagan Rome continued for another 450 years or so.

But this separation or breaking apart the two elements (this is also important because it would have said the entire feet or the entire image, etc., if 2:34 was meant to mean total destruction of the 4 kingdoms), into pieces. Why focus on these 2 elements only if the entire image is being destroyed? It is not meant to convey that although EVERYONE believes this.

Only these 2 elements found only in the 4th kingdom were struck for the only purpose of symbolically separating His people from the Roman Empire. And of course this did not mean that this “striking” would destroy either of the two elements or the total image or the Jews as a people.

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It seems that you are focused very much on the verses to define timelines. As I mentioned, I don't view chapter and verse designations as sacred or prophetic. This underlying foundation of how I interpret scripture will likely limit my ability to accept your conclusion, not because I'm unwilling to examine it, but because I have examined it.

We agree that the striking of the image and its destruction is not immediate, but Daniel 2:34-35 are not differentiated in my mind because they simply speak of the same event. The feet of iron and clay, just as the toes that are part of feet as evidenced from the interpretation in verses 40-43, they are, like the feet, made of iron and clay. The toes are specifically called out being the very end of the statue as the kingdom being partly strong and partly broken. The toes are part of the 4th kingdom just as the feet and just as the legs. All are the 4th kingdom, but the toes represent the end of it, divided and broken.

That the stone strikes the feet and the toes are called out separately actually points to the establishment of the kingdom and its initial growth in 30 AD before the toes are called out later. I don't know about everyone else, but I believe the whole image is destroyed when those two elements are struck because Daniel tells the king that "the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them." Because I can't justify verse separation as prophetic, it seems clear that all elements of the image are destroyed when the two elements of the image are struck and following that they are carried away and no place was found for them. If the image is broken and not found, that to me is the definition of utter destruction.

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What it did accomplish is to separate those pieces of clay (pottery clay) that would accept Him as their Messiah and preach the Good News to the Gentiles while those Jews who rejected Him (ceramic clay) - they would continue in their pre-cross faith.

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I'm not sure I understand the distinction between pottery clay and ceramic clay. Daniel 2 is the only place where "pottery" clay and "miry" clay are presented and they would seem to be a distinction without a difference. I would be curious to see where your distinction lies in that.

I agree that there is a distinction between faithful Jews that accepted Yeshua and unfaithful Jews that were blinded to the truth of the arrival of the Messiah. This has continued on through time as some Jews have come to know Yeshua as the Messiah, while others hold to the interpretations of men explicitly working to reject Yeshua as the Messiah. These are still waiting for the Messiah who already arrived.

However, I don't understand the distinction in clay as it relates to the fourth kingdom of the image to which both the clay and iron belong. Israel was never part of Rome except that they had no choice, just as they were not part of Babylon or Greece. However, there was no clay introduced in those kingdoms even though the prophetic narrative that included Israel was distinctly present in them.

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Later, we can discuss verses 2:41-45, which are only relevant to the cross- a before and after picture if you will. These 5 verses were unbelievably difficult to understand and they could only be interpreted with 2:34 representing the cross.

I think I had to leave these 5 verses alone and move on to the rest of Daniel because they were impossible to unpack. I think after going through the later chapters and spending at least 5 months just on trying to interpret them did I realize that 2:34 HAD to mean the cross for them to make any sense.

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I agree that Daniel 2:34 is the cross in 30 AD, the establishment of the kingdom, I just see verse 35 in the same sentence and context. As you mentioned previously, it wasn't an immediate breaking up. If 1,000 years is as a day to the Lord, it took a good 9-33 hours after the stone struck the image for it to no longer exist. Either way, per verse 35, the statue is gone as of today, which I believe we can see with our own eyes. As I mentioned before, I don’t see the Roman Catholic Church, or Papal Rome, as a valid sit in for the political government of the Roman Empire, it's a different thing entirely.

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I don’t know your interpretations on these 5 verses … if in the meantime, perhaps you might send me your thoughts just on verse 2:41.

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I hinted at it before, but the image is a progression of kingdoms through time. As such, the higher the image the older it is and the toes would be the very end of the image. That the stone struck the feet would indicate that there was still part of the kingdom that would exist after the feet were struck.

The feet and toes are both iron (Rome's strength) and clay (Rome's weakness) mixed together. While Rome always had its internal conflict, the time from around 27 BC under Augustus began a 200 year period of Pax Romana and a sense of unity in the kingdom. The Star of Bethlehem: The Star That Astonished the World by Ernest L. Martin goes into this a bit in light of the signs in the heavens that occurred around the birth of Christ.

It seems clear that just as the progression of kingdoms went through time, so would the ratio of iron to clay go over time. While the stone struck the feet, the Roman Empire was still mostly strong historically. It wasn't until around 50 years after the putting down of the final Bar Kokhba Revolt, when the Jewish-Roman Wars finally ended. As Daniel 9:26 stated, "the people of the prince that shall come [Titus] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;[70 AD] and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war [Jewish-Roman Wars 63-136 AD] desolations are determined."

It is verse 42 that would seem to point to the later growing weakness of the toes that come after the feet at the end of Pax Romana. Rome went "from a kingdom of gold to one of iron and rust." [Roman History by Cassius Dio p. 72.36.4] The  once strong iron legs were getting weaker over time.

In verse 43 we see what I believe Chris White speaks of in his Daniel commentary of the final death throes of the Rome the vision is speaking of, where royal intermarriage between the East and West are attempted to keep the kingdom strong, but the West is consumed.

Verse 44 states that it is in the days of these kings that God sets up a kingdom. Clearly we can't get too dogmatic about the exact year, month, and day in terms of which kings are being spoken of, it seems a more generic idea that during the various kings at the end of the Roman Empire that the kingdom of God consumes them. And in 380 AD Nicene Christianity was made the state church of the Roman Empire. While the pagan/papal Rome clearly did not live up to the true teaching of Christ, the foundation was based on the same scripture, interpreted to control the people much of the time. 100 years later the Western Roman Empire was gone. Israel as a nation was several hundred years removed and disbursed into the world. With the later reforms and accessibility of the text to the masses, Christianity consumed the hearts and minds of those with ears to hear and the stone that established and defined the kingdom grew into a mountain that is filling the earth to this day.

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Thanks so much for your response. Also, if you would like to receive an authors copy of my commentary on Daniel, (no charge at all), please send me a PM with your contact/ mailing information and I will process through Amazon immediately.

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I would love to support you by purchasing a copy, what is the name of the book and perhaps others might also be interested. Sorry if you mentioned the title and I missed it.

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 2:20 AM, Triton57 said:

However, Daniel 2 is explicitly tied to Babylon - Rome and if these 4 beasts in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 unified as one are at the end of the age, how can you say they are historical kingdoms? Is the suggestion that Babylon is represented as part of the end time false christ kingdom?

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They are unified into one prophetic imagery, which I believe as a singular representation presents the rising to power of the last great empire, "the 8th" that goes into perdition. 

Rev.17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The angel is the one who makes this obvious when he states "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings, of which five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." Now, who is the angel referencing? He is showing a sequence undeniable of Israel's history that leads to its last days. 

It is history that Israel was birth in Egypt, and prior to Daniel's day, the ten northern tribes went into captivity by Assyria. Followed historically by Babylon, Med/Persia, and Greece (five who were "fallen" at the time of Revelation. Next was Rome which was, which being diverse and doing what the others prior did not do. brought Israel to an end as geographical nation with boundaries and definable border.

Therefore, just as the beast is so referenced, Israel historically too was, but then was not, and yet today Israel is.

Since all these nations have been prophetic in Israel’s history, and it all pertains to “thy people and upon thy holy city” so to say, and the comings of Messiah, it seems fitting that if Israel was not, then (as Michael37 perhaps would say) became obsolete, so would those previous nations  represented within the prophetic imagery of the seven headed beast.

But since Israel was reborn, a succession of beasts returns as well, and it too can be said to be “yet is.”

However, again to provide wisdom for understanding the angel tells the mystery of both the woman and the beast, with the focus narrowing in on “the 8^th which goes into perdition,” but not to the exclusion of the ten horns which have their relevance for sure....

Edited February 10 by BlindSeeker

[Triton57]

  On 2/10/2025 at 1:22 AM, BlindSeeker said:

I cannot agree with the term "coexist." Certainly, they were not a mingle society, but each has their historical place of dominance, and that is successive.

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Daniel 7:3, 7
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it[H6925]; and it had ten horns."

The first clue that these four beasts all coexist at the same time in history lies in the fact that while they are diverse, the fourth beast is seen in the vision with the three other beasts before it. If you look at how H6925 is used everywhere in the Old Testament, it is clear it is almost exclusively used 46 times in 38 verses in the context of before, in front of. This is a spacial definition, not a temporal one. Even in the context of the same vision it is used spacially.

Daniel 7:8, 10, 13, 20
"I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before[H6925] whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ... I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before[H6925] him. ... And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before[H6925] whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows."

The meaning of before makes all four beasts contemporaneous. This is also confirmed elsewhere in this same vision.

Daniel 7:11-12
"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

In order for the fourth dreadful beast to be cast into the lake of fire at Christ's coming and the other 3 beasts that were before him have their lives prolonged for a season and time, they all must have coexisted at the same time and that time is explicitly tied to the end, yet future for us.

As you rightly pointed out in your previous post, Revelation 13 uses the same identifiers of the lion, bear, leopard, and 10 horned beast that Daniel 7 does. The difference is that Daniel 7 reveals them explicitly distinct from each other while Revelation 13 reveals them all as aspects of the Dragon in his kingdom. And this isn't any wonder since the whole world gives their power over to the beast.

So to me, it would seem that Daniel is seeing these 4 beasts representative of the world quartered in power while John sees the 3 quarters of the world giving their power over to the beast controlling the 4th quarter. And so they are unified as one in his kingdom at the end.

And this is where I agree that Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are tied together. But while these are locked in time to the end, Daniel 2 is likewise locked in time, from the period of Babylon to Rome, all of which are long dead and no more rule in the earth. This is why I see the Daniel 7 beasts as coexisting together, at the end of the age.

[BlindSeeker]

  On 2/10/2025 at 2:52 AM, Triton57 said:

Daniel 7:3, 7
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. ... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it[H6925]; and it had ten horns."

The first clue that these four beasts all coexist at the same time in history lies in the fact that while they are diverse, the fourth beast is seen in the vision with the three other beasts before it. If you look at how H6925 is used everywhere in the Old Testament, it is clear it is almost exclusively used 46 times in 38 verses in the context of before, in front of. This is a spacial definition, not a temporal one. Even in the context of the same vision it is used spacially.

Daniel 7:8, 10, 13, 20
"I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before[H6925] whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before[H6925] him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before[H6925] him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ... I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before[H6925] him. ... And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before[H6925] whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows."

The meaning of before makes all four beasts contemporaneous. This is also confirmed elsewhere in this same vision.

Daniel 7:11-12
"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

Revelation 19:20
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

In order for the fourth dreadful beast to be cast into the lake of fire at Christ's coming and the other 3 beasts that were before him have their lives prolonged for a season and time, they all must have coexisted at the same time and that time is explicitly tied to the end, yet future for us.

As you rightly pointed out in your previous post, Revelation 13 uses the same identifiers of the lion, bear, leopard, and 10 horned beast that Daniel 7 does. The difference is that Daniel 7 reveals them explicitly distinct from each other while Revelation 13 reveals them all as aspects of the Dragon in his kingdom. And this isn't any wonder since the whole world gives their power over to the beast.

So to me, it would seem that Daniel is seeing these 4 beasts representative of the world quartered in power while John sees the 3 quarters of the world giving their power over to the beast controlling the 4th quarter. And so they are unified as one in his kingdom at the end.

And this is where I agree that Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are tied together. But while these are locked in time to the end, Daniel 2 is likewise locked in time, from the period of Babylon to Rome, all of which are long dead and no more rule in the earth. This is why I see the Daniel 7 beasts as coexisting together, at the end of the age.

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I was basically speaking of the four beast. Clearly, there is a duration of time in which the ten horns coexist, and the little horn arises among them as well. But remember,  they were on the Beast of Rome and all come after Rome feel and was them divided in ten different regions/kingdoms. The are commonly recognized by many as being the following -

1.           The Roman senate.
2.           The Greeks, in Ravenna. 
3.           The Lombards in Lombardy.
4.           The Huns in Hungary. 
5.           The Alemans, in Germany.
6.           The Franks in France.
7.           The Burgundians in Burgundy.
8.           The Saracens in Africa, and a part of Spain.
9.           The Goths, in other parts of Spain. 
10.          And the Saxons, in Britain.

This is similar to "the ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last." This being Mede and Persia, coexisting, with Persia rising the highest.

Or, the "he goat [that waxed very great, and [yet] when he was strong, the great horn [Alexander the Great] was broken; and for it came up four notable ones [his four generals divided Greece in four separate regions and coexisted.