Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's obviously debatable. 

Just show me the evidence of the group in heaven that must number in the 100s of millions, that are resurrected from the Ascension to the 2nd advent, in some fashion or other, akin to how Revelation shows the group in heaven clearly identified as coming from a specific time and having shown particular and deeply convicted behaviors'.

That's not a lot to ask.

I don't know why you seem so stuck on the time period between the Ascension and the Second Advent.  I don't even know why you think that is important or significant.

1 Cor 15:23 is a clear statement about ALL believers, period.  Unless you or someone else can prove from Scripture that there are believers who DON'T belong to Christ.

That should make for interesting reading!

I guess you just don't like what 1 Cor 15:23 says because you think something other than what it says.  The verse covers all believers, since 1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of believers, all of them.

So, prove otherwise since you don't believe that "those who belong to Him" means every believer in history.

Show from Scripture that there are believers who don't fit into that category.

If you can show that, you are correct and I am wrong.  Otherwise, I remain correct.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:20 AM, Diaste said:

Not according to the text. 

Okay. So at the time we see the group in heaven, where is the description of the multitude of others not having come out from within GT? 

 

This is gap filling. If text is silent, we would should also be silent. In Revelation no other group is seen in heaven with Jesus and God that did not face the beast and come out from within GT.

True.

Not possible. There should be no sheep here since Jesus resurrected all the dead in Christ and rescued all the alive and remaining. This isn't after GT, it's after the millennium. 

Except Jesus also lists the deeds of the righteous and cites specifically this is what they did for Him, to wit:

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

 

I would make the same claim that you are. You say I am Gap filling by saying that there are people in heaven at that time that are not mentioned. However I would also say that you are being narrow in claiming that only those that are specifically mentioned could be the only possible people in heaven at that time. What reason do you have to believe that only Martyrs of the tribulation will be in heaven during the tribulation? Where did the rest of us go? We certainly aren't on Earth and glorified bodies during the tribulation, so is there a separate location that will be sent from heaven to? 

 

I will say that I honestly don't know the exact timing of the judgment of the sheep and the goats. I do know that every single believer through all of history will enter the millennial Kingdom, and that no unbeliever will be permitted to enter the millennial Kingdom at its start. Perhaps it's possible the sheep and the goats judgment will happen twice, since all unbelievers must die before the millennial Kingdom begins.

 

I think it's worth noting however that although there is one passage that does mention specifically only tribulation saints, there is also another passage that mentions that heaven will be filled with every single tribe tongue and Nation. That obviously means that heaven is not limited to only tribulation saints, but that there will be people from every single culture and time period from Earth's history in heaven.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I would make the same claim that you are. You say I am Gap filling by saying that there are people in heaven at that time that are not mentioned. However I would also say that you are being narrow in claiming that only those that are specifically mentioned could be the only possible people in heaven at that time. What reason do you have to believe that only Martyrs of the tribulation will be in heaven during the tribulation? Where did the rest of us go? We certainly aren't on Earth and glorified bodies during the tribulation, so is there a separate location that will be sent from heaven to?

I'm not saying it's the only possible group in heaven. What I am proposing is the group as described is the only one we see described in writing. So then to add a very large group that is not described akin to to one we do see described and identified, is something we shouldn't do. 

I'm quite sure the two witnesses will be in heaven, probably the thief on the cross, perhaps the many that were resurrected when Jesus was resurrected, and maybe others, but I cannot confirm.

If what is in Revelation is fact about the vast group shown in Rev 7, 15, and 20, then they are to only ones that come to life and live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, as it is written, all others wait till the 1000 years are over. 

However, Paul did say to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. What that looks like I do not know. What is Abraham's Bosom? Is that even a real thing, or was it an illustration? And when, and for how long, and whom? 

"And they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years", they being the ones beheaded for their testimony and the word of God[which I liberally apply to anyone at any time so, Paul.], and the ones who overcame the beast, specifically refusing the mark and refusing to worship the beast, are those who live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

The question is then; where is what should be a very large group of pure and righteous followers of Christ from a time period of at least 2000 years pictured in heaven with God and Jesus, anywhere in scripture? I have not seen it.

20 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I will say that I honestly don't know the exact timing of the judgment of the sheep and the goats.

I do. It's when Jesus sit on His glorious throne. I don't know when that judgment happens in relation to the start or end of the millennium since I don't see a direct statement. But I do deduce it's the same as the GWTJ, after the millennium.

20 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I do know that every single believer through all of history will enter the millennial Kingdom,

Excellent! Where is that written? 

 

20 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Perhaps it's possible the sheep and the goats judgment will happen twice, since all unbelievers must die before the millennial Kingdom begins.

Yes. I have heard similar. 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't know why you seem so stuck on the time period between the Ascension and the Second Advent.  I don't even know why you think that is important or significant.

Because I suspect, and others have said, the OT saints have been resurrected. Now I don't know that to a certainty but it is possible. Some were and we don't even know how many. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

1 Cor 15:23 is a clear statement about ALL believers, period.  Unless you or someone else can prove from Scripture that there are believers who DON'T belong to Christ.

You, et al, are defining it as such. That isn't written, it's a presupposition. That's in contrast to the group in heaven with God and the Lamb about the throne variously described as having come from GT, overcame the beast, and were beheaded, or stood firm against the beast's blasphemous demands.

Why is it after the second coming and the resurrection in the Book of Revelation we don't see a group of believers from 'all time'?

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That should make for interesting reading!

I guess you just don't like what 1 Cor 15:23 says because you think something other than what it says.  The verse covers all believers, since 1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of believers, all of them.

It's not a like or dislike. It's general and undefined. From 'those that are Christ's' I can't tell what the criteria is. From Revelation I can see clearly defined criteria of the resurrected in heaven. That means Revelation defines who is taken up and resurrected.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, prove otherwise since you don't believe that "those who belong to Him" means every believer in history.

Can't prove a negative. It's positively asserted 'those that are Christ's' are 'all from all time', that needs supporting statements.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Show from Scripture that there are believers who don't fit into that category.

That's what I'm pursuing. As I have said, a resurrection and redemption is always a resurrection and redemption if it happens 4000 years past, or 4000 years future. 

 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If you can show that, you are correct and I am wrong.  Otherwise, I remain correct.

You show support for the positive assertion. I'm doing that for my proposition. I'm not going to prove your position in burden shift.

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Because I suspect, and others have said, the OT saints have been resurrected. Now I don't know that to a certainty but it is possible. Some were and we don't even know how many.

I accept what 1 Cor 15:23 says;  that every believer (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

You "suspect" some things.  I know some things, per the Bible.  Are you suspicions in the Bible as clear text?

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You, et al, are defining it as such. That isn't written, it's a presupposition. That's in contrast to the group in heaven with God and the Lamb about the throne variously described as having come from GT, overcame the beast, and were beheaded, or stood firm against the beast's blasphemous demands.

Then prove "those who belong to Him" doesn't include every saved person in history.  From Scripture, of course.

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Why is it after the second coming and the resurrection in the Book of Revelation we don't see a group of believers from 'all time'?

Why would we?  We do see the MK, in which ALL saved people, in resurrection bodies, will be reigning with Christ or serving the King in His kingdom.  Why isn't that enough?

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's not a like or dislike. It's general and undefined. From 'those that are Christ's' I can't tell what the criteria is.

Huh?  The criteria is possession.  All who have believed in Him and are saved are His possession.  How can anyone argue against that?

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

From Revelation I can see clearly defined criteria of the resurrected in heaven. That means Revelation defines who is taken up and resurrected.

Give me chapter and verse and the definition will be clear.

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Can't prove a negative. It's positively asserted 'those that are Christ's' are 'all from all time', that needs supporting statements.

Go find the opposite;  that there are believers who DON'T belong to Him.  That's how you'd prove your claim.

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You show support for the positive assertion. I'm doing that for my proposition. I'm not going to prove your position in burden shift.

Everyone has the burden of proving their claims from the Bible.  I have done that.  You have not yet done that.

If there are believers who don't fit the "those who belong to Him" category (criteria), then prove it from Scripture.  

Your claim doesn't even make sense, since EVERY believer DOES belong to Him.

1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

22 hours ago, Diaste said:

Because I suspect, and others have said, the OT saints have been resurrected. Now I don't know that to a certainty but it is possible. Some were and we don't even know how many.

I accept what 1 Cor 15:23 says;  that every believer (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

You "suspect" some things.  I know some things, per the Bible.  Are you suspicions in the Bible as clear text?

So you missed the equivocation? I always qualify when it's indirect evidence, as I did in this case. I know for a certainty OT saints were resurrected, I don't know how many, no one does. If some OT saints were resurrected, were they all resurrected at the resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus? Perhaps. Perhaps not. 

This would then be akin to some being resurrected at the 2nd Coming, and some not, a precedent. If that's the case concerning the OT saints that were resurrected.

 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

22 hours ago, Diaste said:

You, et al, are defining it as such. That isn't written, it's a presupposition. That's in contrast to the group in heaven with God and the Lamb about the throne variously described as having come from GT, overcame the beast, and were beheaded, or stood firm against the beast's blasphemous demands.

Then prove "those who belong to Him" doesn't include every saved person in history.  From Scripture, of course.

That's proving a negative. It's impossible. You must prove the defining characteristic of 'those who are Christ's at His coming' are 'all from all time'. I do not since I am not asserting they are. I would be asserting 'those who are Christ's at His coming' are defined as a group based on Rev 7, 15 and 20.

In this way I have presented evidence for my positive assertion.

You must do likewise. Or not. At this point I see you have no evidence and can only shift the burden of proof.

 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

22 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why is it after the second coming and the resurrection in the Book of Revelation we don't see a group of believers from 'all time'?

Why would we?  We do see the MK, in which ALL saved people, in resurrection bodies, will be reigning with Christ or serving the King in His kingdom.  Why isn't that enough?

It isn't enough because there is no evidence for it. You, and others, assert it's the case, but the only ones written about living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years are described in Rev 20:4; there are no others.   

You keep saying things like 'all from all time' and 'all saved people' but I see no scripture backing it up except for the undefined 'those that are Christ's at His coming' from 1 Cor 15:23; which is undefined by any other witness. Call that witness which confirms 1 Cor 15:23 means 'all from all time'. 

I'm showing time and again that Rev 7, 15, and 20 show who is in the millennium unequivocally. I'll iterate:

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason,

they are before the throne of God

and serve Him day and night in His temple;

and the One seated on the throne

will spread His tabernacle over them.

16‘Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them,

nor any scorching heat.’a

17For the Lamb in the center of the throne

will be their shepherd.b

‘He will lead them to springs of living water,’c

and ‘God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

This is not 'all from all time'. This answers two of the most basic and important questions of identity, Who? and Where? I see nothing here about 'all from all time'. Also, notice the reward for these in 15-17

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, 3and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb"

The ones here conquered the beast. No mention of 'all from all time'. Again, notice the reward and what they are doing.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Here the only ones that are said to have come to life to live and reign with Jesus are the beheaded, and the spiritual rocks unmoved by the pressure to blasphemously worship. I see no other group here. These, and the ones from Rev 7 and 15, are 'those that are Christ's at His coming'. That's undeniable since they are resurrected, redeemed and translated to the presence of God. 

But I see no other's here arriving out of all time, or at least from the Ascension to the 2nd Advent.

Now, do the same with your assertion, provide evidence for your claim from scripture, not Sunday School.

If you cannot, I'm going to move on.

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Huh?  The criteria is possession.  All who have believed in Him and are saved are His possession.  How can anyone argue against that?

Skirting the real issue, again. 

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Give me chapter and verse and the definition will be clear.

I have done so diligently again and again, including in the OP. I think I'm about to bow out.

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Go find the opposite;  that there are believers who DON'T belong to Him.  That's how you'd prove your claim.

Again, I'm not making that claim, you are presenting a strawman. I think I have been patient enough with this tack.

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Everyone has the burden of proving their claims from the Bible.  I have done that.  You have not yet done that.

Hmm...quite the opposite. 

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If there are believers who don't fit the "those who belong to Him" category (criteria), then prove it from Scripture.  

Your claim doesn't even make sense, since EVERY believer DOES belong to Him.

1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Yeah...I'm just done here. 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's proving a negative. It's impossible.

Your problem is that you can't prove your claims from Scripture.  You have no clear and unambiguous verses that support your claims.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You must prove the defining characteristic of 'those who are Christ's at His coming' are 'all from all time'.

I have by the simple FACT that every born again person belongs to Christ.  And again, you have NO evidence of any group of believers who DON'T FIT that.  

Eph 1:13,14  13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,  14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Does this help?  Those who believe ARE God's POSSESSION.

2 Cor 1:22 -  set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

ALL believers are God's possession.  You need to believe that fact.  1 Cor 15:23 is about ALL believers.  And you don't have any verse that shows any believers who are not God's possession.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I do not since I am not asserting they are. I would be asserting 'those who are Christ's at His coming' are defined as a group based on Rev 7, 15 and 20.

For no good reason.  Why would only 3 chapters define anything from another author/book?  You're just looking for justification for your beliefs by cobbling together verses that you think support your claim.

1 Cor 15 is THE DEFINING chapter on the resurrection of believers, not just some groups of believers.  ALL believers.  You have no case.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

In this way I have presented evidence for my positive assertion.

No, you have not.  

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You must do likewise. Or not. At this point I see you have no evidence and can only shift the burden of proof.

I have done it.  Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 are the proof of who belongs to God.  Believers.  All believers.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It isn't enough because there is no evidence for it.

I just showed you the evidence.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You, and others, assert it's the case, but the only ones written about living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years are described in Rev 20:4; there are no others.

Go ahead and ignore all the verses about the Second Advent if you want to, but I don't.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

   You keep saying things like 'all from all time' and 'all saved people' but I see no scripture backing it up except for the undefined 'those that are Christ's at His coming' from 1 Cor 15:23;

Here is the problem, clear and simple.  You read the phrase as "undefined" because that helps you ignore the obvious contradiction in your view.  The phrase DEFINES who will be resurrected "when He comes", which is "those who belong to Him".

Possession is the DEFINITION of who Paul was referring to.  And I gave you 2 verses from other epistles from Paul that clearly define who belongs to Christ.  So you have no case.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

which is undefined by any other witness. Call that witness which confirms 1 Cor 15:23 means 'all from all time'.

I don't have to.  It is beyond clear, but it contradicts your claim so you don't want to believe it.   And Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 contradict your theory.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 I'm showing time and again that Rev 7, 15, and 20 show who is in the millennium unequivocally.

It shows SOME of who will be in the Millennium.  None of those verses even address the whole group, as DOES 1 Cor 15:23.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Now, do the same with your assertion, provide evidence for your claim from scripture, not Sunday School.

I rest my case on Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22.  Believe the verses, or reject them.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you cannot, I'm going to move on.

You are free to do whatever you want.  But I know that you cannot explain either Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 as something other than what they SAY, which refutes your claims.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Skirting the real issue, again.

No, that's what you have been doing.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have done so diligently again and again, including in the OP. I think I'm about to bow out.

You are free to whatever you like.  But if you simply bow out and ignore Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22, you will have proven you cannot stand up to Scripture that refutes your claims.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah...I'm just done here. 

Yeah, I thought so.  You cannot answer the truth that I have presented.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Here is the problem, clear and simple.  You read the phrase as "undefined" because that helps you ignore the obvious contradiction in your view.  The phrase DEFINES who will be resurrected "when He comes", which is "those who belong to Him".

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  Galatians 5:24

Have ALL believers crucified the flesh with its passions and desires?  I think that's the question.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  Galatians 5:24

Have ALL believers crucified the flesh with its passions and desires?  I think that's the question.

I believe that verse is speaking to the fact of positional truth.  Those who have believed HAVE "died with Christ".  Positionally, the believer is justified.  Experientially, the believer continues to struggle with their flesh, or sin nature.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I believe that verse is speaking to the fact of positional truth.  Those who have believed HAVE "died with Christ".  Positionally, the believer is justified.  Experientially, the believer continues to struggle with their flesh, or sin nature.

True belief (of the heart; versus lip belief of the mouth) is what determines that position in Christ. And true belief always results in the fruits of the Spirit.