Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[FreeGrace]

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

I agree! But, what constitutes "those who belong to Him?" Since He is to be Israel's King (for that's what a Mashiyach, an Anointed One, is), don't fHis own subjects also "belong to Him?"

The context of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of believers, saved people.  And all saved people belong to Him.

As for the MK, He will be King over the mortal survivors of the tribulation, who took the mark of the beast.  This explains why the whole world will gather around Jerusalem at the end of the MK to attack and wipe out the King.  And be fried in the process.

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I believe this is also talking about the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, those of His own tribe, especially!

Only believers are "those who belong to Him".  Remember, the context is the resurrection of saved people.

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's "no distinction between the Jew and the Gentile" IN CHRIST! "Outside of Christ" is a different matter! There most definitely IS a distinction between the children of Israel and other nations!

1 Cor 15:23 isn't talking about those outside of Christ.  Only believers.

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Romans 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

(Gentile Christians would think the answer is "There is none." BUT, that's NOT what Paul said!)

2 MUCH EVERY WAY: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God (the Words of God). 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Paul also said to the Romans,

Romans 11:1-32 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? GOD FORBID! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life!"

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath NOT obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 ( According as it is written, "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" unto this day.

9 And David saith,

"Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? GOD FORBID!: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy! 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? [THE RESURRECTION!] 16 For if the firstfruit (the Messiah or Christ) be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root (of David, again the Messiah)  be holy, so are the branches!

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou (Roman Gentile), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee! 

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

on them which fell, severity;

but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in HIS goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off [as a people]. 23 And they also, if they [as His people] abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN! 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed CONTRARY TO NATURE into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer ["Yeeshuwa`" means "He shall save" or "He shall deliver"], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT as touching the ELECTION, they are BELOVED for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling!]  30 For as ye {Roman Gentiles] in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [the Jews'] unbelief: 31 Even so have these [the Jews] also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL.

None of this shows that any unbelievers will be involved in the resurrection of 1 Cor 15:23.  Believers only.  Christ is the firstfruits, meaning the first to receive a glorified immortal physical body, followed by those who belong to HimIt doesn't make sense to apply "those who belong to Him" to unbelievers who will have their own resurrection just before the GWT judgment.

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

"Group"??  The saved group, obviously.  There are only 2 groups of mankind;  saved and unsaved.  The saved group will be resurrected at the Second Advent, or "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

Yes. This is a fact.

What I'm asking is:

"Where do we see the vast group of saved believers from all time, from Adam to the 2nd coming, pictured with the Lamb and God about the throne?"

 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In Rev 20 we see trib martyrs being resurrected.  John didn't mention all believers from all time, but Paul did, in 1 Cor 15:23.

 Paul said 'all will be changed', 'we shall not all sleep'. I don't see where there is any language in 1 Cor 15:50-54 where Paul says, 'all believers from all time will be resurrected at the 2nd coming'.

Maybe I'm just missing it.

 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When Jesus returns to earth (Second Advent/coming) every believer from Adam forward will be given a glorified immortal body, generally referred to as the resurrection body, although those who survive the trib will "be changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52.

It's all in that single verse.

That's an understanding, a doctrine.

Please point out in this verse where it says, "every believer from Adam forward will be given a glorified immortal body, generally referred to as the resurrection body"

"in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Who?  Jesus Christ is the first to receive a resurrection body.  Then, "those who belong to Him", meaning, of course, EVERY believer in history.

'Meaning, of course, every believer in history.'?? I don't see that here. I do see it, but not in 1 Cor 15:50-53. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When?  "when He comes" a clear reference to the Second Advent.

What?  The context is about the resurrection.

So I see you edited the quote to which the above is a rebuttal, then give an argument to something I did not say. I think I'll finish up here and this will be my last response to you.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

1 Cor 15:23 includes every saved person from Adam forward.  Or someone has to prove from Scripture that there are believers that do not fit the description "those who belong to Him".  I'll wait.

Gave it to you. You are choosing to ignore the points I made. This is a red herring. 

Everyone belongs to Christ. I'm not presenting arguments debating the distracting comment you posted above. 

I'm asking Whom? and When? 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, so you don't.  I do, and so do many others.  1 Cor 15:23 includes EVERY believer.

It doesn't just because you want to believe it does. Show me the language that says, "every believer". Paul is saying that all who are resurrected then will be changed, not that every believer is resurrected. If he was, that would contradict Revelation.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There are 3 verses that identify 2 resurrections; for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  All believers at one resurrection, and all unbelievers at one resurrection.  And the 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart.  Rev 20:4-6.

Not true. The second is where the 2nd death has power. This simplistic preaching about the nature of those two resurrections has been going on for centuries and it's inaccurate. The 2nd death only 'has power', and it's only 'if' the name is NOT found in the book of life 'then' that person is not getting in. 

 

 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, that's doesn't make any sense, or there would be no distinction between resurrections of the saved and unsaved.  And the Bible DOES make that distinction.

No, Jesus never makes that distinction and in fact His  words in Matt 25 contradict such a teaching. 

In Matt 25 we see,

 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Believers and unbelievers in the same resurrection. This is at the GWT.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If you take 1 Cor 15:23 as including everyone in humanity, you have a big problem with Rev 20:4-6 that plainly says there will be 1,000 years between the FIRST resurrection and the next one.

Your math is off.

Thanks for engaging. I'm out.

Blessings.

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

What I'm asking is:

"Where do we see the vast group of saved believers from all time, from Adam to the 2nd coming, pictured with the Lamb and God about the throne?"

I don't see that.  When all the believers are gathered for the resurrection, it will be on earth, not in heaven.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Paul said 'all will be changed', 'we shall not all sleep'. I don't see where there is any language in 1 Cor 15:50-54 where Paul says, 'all believers from all time will be resurrected at the 2nd coming'.

That verse is v.23.  "those who belong to Him" cannot mean anything less than every saved person from Adam on.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

That's an understanding, a doctrine.

Please point out in this verse where it says, "every believer from Adam forward will be given a glorified immortal body, generally referred to as the resurrection body"

Again, 1 Cor 15:23

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

"in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

This refers to the believers who are alive when Jesus comes back.  Since their physical body is alive, it doesn't need to be resurrected, but it will be changed in the same kind of resurrection body all previously dead believers will receive.  And the body will be just like the Lord's.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

'Meaning, of course, every believer in history.'?? I don't see that here. I do see it, but not in 1 Cor 15:50-53.

Since v.23 precedes v.50-53, Paul had no need to repeat it.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Everyone belongs to Christ. I'm not presenting arguments debating the distracting comment you posted above.

Where does the Bible say that?  It doesn't even make sense.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I'm asking Whom? and When? 

It doesn't just because you want to believe it does. Show me the language that says, "every believer". Paul is saying that all who are resurrected then will be changed, not that every believer is resurrected. If he was, that would contradict Revelation.

You talk about red herrings.  And now you demand specific words that you know aren't found in Scripture.  The phrase "those who belong to Him" is in the context of the believer's resurrection, whether you realize that or not, so NO unbeliever will be included in the resurrection of all believers.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not true. The second is where the 2nd death has power. This simplistic preaching about the nature of those two resurrections has been going on for centuries and it's inaccurate. The 2nd death only 'has power', and it's only 'if' the name is NOT found in the book of life 'then' that person is not getting in.

Rom 20:4-6 couldn't be any more clear.  The FIRST resurrection will be 1,000 years before the next one, which is for unbelievers.

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

Of course I do.  As comfortable as Paul was writing it... 

That is not what I was referring to. I was referring to the the adding of a large group of people to the instances we see in Revelation concerning just who is seen in heaven and resurrected after the 2nd Advent; to wit:

In Rev 7 this group, "too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb", is obviously resurrected, translated saints. But they are said to come out from a specific time period....

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Then it's said of these,

For this reason, they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16‘Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat.’17For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd.b

‘He will lead them to springs of living water,’ and ‘God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’

This is the reward for the multitude too large to count that came out of GT. I don't see 'all believers from all time' in this passage. The passage is very specific to whom and when and what.

So what is then uncomfortable, is adding to this group when the group is unequivocally identified by specific attributes.

There is no passage in all scripture with such a detailed description that shows 'all believers from all time' in heaven with God and the Lamb, and standing around the throne, following the 2nd Advent.

There should be, but there isn't. 

What the doctrine of all believers from all time resurrected to heaven must mean is that all believers have gone through GT and faced the beast and conquered the beast, to wit:

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those WHO HAD CONQUERED THE BEAST and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, 3and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Means only those with the listed attributes are coming to life to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years, not everyone.

 

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

1 Co 15:22- For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23- But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I don't know why you deny this fact. I hope it isn't a word game of sorts. Wouldn't seem like you. But I feel confident you are putting forth a theory. Maybe I am wrong but I think you are alone in it.

I don't deny this. I also addressed what Paul is saying here with examples.

In Matt 25 everyone, believer and unbeliever, is resurrected together at the time/space moment as spoken here, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne"

In Rev 20:5, "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. "

This is all the dead as shown in Rev 20:12, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne."

This is what Paul is referring to, a general resurrection of all the dead, made alive again by Christ for the final judgment of ultimate destiny.

In 1 Cor 15:22 Paul is making a comparison between Adam and Christ. It would make no sense to think Adam is the cause of the death of only believers or the death of only unbelievers.  Adam is the cause of the death of everyone. This is in comparison to Christ who makes everyone alive again, believer and unbeliever, or else how does the unbeliever stand trial in Matt 25 and Rev 20? 

We have the word 'all' twice here in 1 Cor 15:22. 

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

The all in which they die in Adam is everyone. It's not logically possible to then have the 'all' in 'in Christ all' to mean only believers. This is everyone who ever died in Adam, will at some crossroad be made alive by Jesus.

Then, if 'in Christ all' means 'all' the same way 'in Adam all' means everyone, then every believer and non-believer will be raised at the 2nd advent. We know that doesn't happen. 

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

What Paul said includes everyone in Rev 20:4.

Paul doesn't mention a specific group identified with undeniable characteristics as does Rev 7, 15, and 20

It's not just Rev 20:4, it's also Rev 15:2-3 and Rev 7:11-14. Why isn't the group of resurrected believers from all time mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven[never mentioned anywhere] but the group seen in heaven in Revelation is always shown as having come out of GT and faced the beast and conquered it?

 

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

I showed you O.T. examples of you said you had never seen. Their accuracy says it all. For example;

Is 26:19- Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isa 26:20- Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors  about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isa 26:21- For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Is 27:1- In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Is 27:13- And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Generalization proving the event occurs, not a specific identification of the participants as in the Revelation.

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

You asked me for other scriptures to support this position and I have done so. Will you do the same?

Okay. I'm just going to be done here. I posted scriptural evidence. You have not posted any evidence in the way of proving all from all time are seen in heaven with Jesus at the 2nd advent. You are posting scripture generally describing the fact of the event but not identifying the group or individual characteristics. In contrast, Rev 7:11-14, Rev 15:2-3 and Rev 20:4 do just that; identify Who, When, Where and What. 

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

Job, Daniel, Isaiah, Paul and Jesus say the same thing.

And I agree. It's just not what you think it is.

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

If that isn't enough, nobody will convince you. bro.

It's more than enough. 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Believers and unbelievers in the same resurrection. This is at the GWT

Nope. It can be plainly seen here:

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41- The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42- And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and  gnashing of teeth....

Mat 13:47- Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48- Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49- So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and  sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:50- And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and  gnashing of teeth.

 

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with  him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:.....

Mat 25:32- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:...

Mat 25:34- Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...

  (see John:14:2) We inherit the Kingdom when the Kingdom COMES

Mat 25:41- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Uriah
highlight

[Uriah]

* 

Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; a

Rev 20:11- the heaven fled away; 

 

Rev 6:14- every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 20- the earth...fled away

 

Rev 20:11 - throne, and him that sat on it,

Rev 6:16- him that sitteth on the throne

 

Rev 20- whose face

Rev 6:16- face of him

 

Rev 20:11- found no place for them

Rev 6:16- Fall on us, and hide us 

 

Rev 20:15- the lake of fire

Rev 6:16- the wrath

Rev 6:17- the great day of his wrath is come

 

One example of why I don't read Revelation in a strictly linear manner. 

This is why Rev 20:7-10 should have parentheses around them. Perhaps vv. 5&6 included as well.

 

[Retrobyter]

5 minutes ago, Uriah said:

* 

Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; a

Rev 20:11- the heaven fled away; 

 

Rev 6:14- every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 20- the earth...fled away

 

Rev 20:11 - throne, and him that sat on it,

Rev 6:16- him that sitteth on the throne

 

Rev 20- whose face

Rev 6:16- face of him

 

Rev 20:11- found no place for them

Rev 6:16- Fall on us, and hide us 

 

Rev 20:15- the lake of fire

Rev 6:16- the wrath

Rev 6:17- the great day of his wrath is come

 

One example of why I don't read Revelation in a strictly linear manner. 

This is why Rev 20:7-10 should have parentheses around them. Perhaps vv. 5&6 included as well.

 

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

Actually, these points are too much of a stretch. You DO realize that Yeeshuwa` will be reigning upon the earth from the time of His return on, right? So, He will be on the throne FOREVER once He has taken His seat.

The ONLY difference is that, until the end of the first 1,000 years of His reign, He shall be building His Empire, nation by nation, until He has subdued all of His enemies, and the LAST enemy defeated shall be death. That is when death and the grave ("hell") are cast into the Lake of Fire.

After this point, He turns over the Empire to His Father, YHWH God, and He goes on reigning in the New Jerusalem in the New Earth and its New Sky over the children of Israel and those graffed into His Israel.

One should not stick to Revelation. We also have 2 Peter 3 and 1 Corinthians 15 that add to the mix.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Nope. It can be plainly seen here:

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41- The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42- And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and  gnashing of teeth....

Mat 13:47- Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48- Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49- So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and  sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:50- And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and  gnashing of teeth.

 

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with  him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:.....

Mat 25:32- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:...

Mat 25:34- Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...

  (see John:14:2) We inherit the Kingdom when the Kingdom COMES

Mat 25:41- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Shabbat shalom, again, Uriah.

This is all good ... UNTIL you get to the implied conclusion of the Messiah's prophecy about the separation of the sheep and goat NATIONS (not individuals).

You're right that this happens at the BEGINNING of His reign, which mostly coincides (but is at a different, exact time) with the beginning of the 1,000 years of Satan's imprisonment.

But, it seems that you're making the common assumption that the goat nations IMMEDIATELY go to "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." If one looks up the words "shall go away" in Matthew 25:46, one will find the Greek word "ἀπελεύσονται," transliterated as "apeleusontai," and meaning "will go away" on their own power. They are not THROWN against their will into the Lake of Fire at that time! And, this has to do with goat NATIONS, not the INDIVIDUALS within those nations! So, it is possible that individuals are GIVEN TIME within the 1,000 years to make their OWN choice, AGAINST their own nation's destiny!

I imagine it may be very difficult to make the transition, but I believe they WILL be allowed to emigrate individually to the Messiah's Israel during that time. They will possibly be leaving their families and their friends. But, their nation is doomed because of their treatment of God's people - both the children of Israel and the believers who are graffed into His Kingdom, but individually, they may choose to treat Israel and Christians differently, and actually BECOME a subject of the Messiah's Kingdom.

Isn't "building His Empire by subduing His enemies" the whole point of the 1,000 years?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (The Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Son-of-God's, the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."]

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, so one doesn't make a mistake, one should also remember Gabriel's prophecy:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called 'the Son of the Highest': and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is all good ... UNTIL you get to the implied conclusion of the Messiah's prophecy about the separation of the sheep and goat NATIONS (not individuals).

Hi Retro! 

I'm pretty sure we touched on this before. Remember, I said nations are made of individuals?

The emigrating aspect is not supported in scripture. But what I posted is a direct quote from Jesus:

Mat 25:41- Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

All will stand before the judgment seat of Christ individually.

Rev 20:12- and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Exactly what we see in Mat 25.

[Diaste]

On 10/13/2023 at 12:50 PM, Retrobyter said:

Don't we see this same thing happening also in Matthew 24? So, why do many Christians ASSUME that chapter 7 is a scene from "Heaven?"

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. "

Maybe because the throne above is assumed to be in heaven? 

15For this reason, they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

16‘Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat.’a

17For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd.b ‘He will lead them to springs of living water,’c and ‘God will wipe away every tear from their eyes

Maybe because the above  is seen in heaven where many assume God, the temple and the tabernacle exist? I don't think it's stretch to think this happens in heaven.

But I don't think it advances the idea of whom is resurrected and when, either