Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

The parousia is post GT, pre God's wrath.

Check.

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

 There isn't a pre wrath, post wrath, the 2nd death resurrections, that would be three, we know of only two.

Maybe you know of only two. I know of at least five: of Jesus, of the saints who ascended from the dead shortly afterward, of those at His Parousia, of the two witnesses three+ years later, and of the post-wrath, post-Beast beheaded saints.

Not counting the post-millenial dead.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I would like to put forth for your consideration once again, (because hopefully I am getting better at putting what is in my head into words) 

the possibility that the 'GREAT TRIBULATION' written here

is about

THIS ENTIRE AGE, this age in which we are 'partakers of flesh and blood', this age in which we have been made 'a little lower than angels', this age which culminates and/or includes the Lords Day and the book of life

 

I have heard that before. However, Jesus said, "when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel...at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now,"

Sure there was tribulation, it was not 'great' since GT is described as 'unmatched' throughout all history. Some say even worse than the flood but I don't equate the two.

 

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Why?  Because of the 'HEAVEN AND EARTH AGE' Chapter 7 seems to be talking about, 

isn't this one.


The 'wind' of God isn't released before the final days of this age.  The prince of the power of the air is running to and fro doing his thing, but until GODS PEOPLE are done being sealed, no WIND of God.    GODS people have been being 'sealed' from the time of Adam and Eve and Satan's people have been being 'marked' from the time of Cain.   There spot is not our spot, their rock is not our rock


In Chapter 7, First to be listed is JACOB/ISRAEL.  The 12 original sons of Israel (under law) (TO THE JEW FIRST, THEN GREEK)

After them we see those FROM ALL TONGUES/NATIONS

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

which would REQUIRE them to have come from

EITHER
under Grace,
OR
WORKS during the Lords Day, their names in the book of life (ONE WAY IN WHICH THE DEAD DON'T LIVE FOR 1000 YEARS)

 

It's always been grace. From Adam to the end of the age, no one has ever been saved by works. Grace through faith was the theme of King David's relationship with the Lord.

Works save no one; works prove the faith one received through grace.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BECAUSE THAT IS the only way in which ALL or EVERY nation could be included in those before the throne

No. Let's say it was the way you put it. The Jews still believe in works, the rest is faith through grace, the gift of God.

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:

and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

That doesn't take place until the New Heaven and the New Earth has become home*.    

 

When it begins specifically doesn't make it impossible to say beforehand. And in fact the great multitude is already standing before the throne and the Lamb at the point they are gathered up, gathered up right before wrath falls, as it is said in OT and NT passages.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Thoughts on 'the dead' not living or coming to life for 1000 years

Before we, you and I, came to faith, we were 'dead' in our sins.  Walking around as 'alive' as we knew to be, the reality, DEAD as far as God was concerned.  When did we begin to 'live' or when did we 'come to life'?  

We 'came to life' when we passed from death to life by coming to Faith before we died, 


What about those who died still being 'spiritually dead'?  They died and went to the place of the dead, and they REMAIN there until Christ returns.   ONLY when Christ returns are the spiritually dead resurrected aka 'the die' as opposed to the 'never die'.  


The DEAD will be raised up in their 'spiritual/heavenly body' BECAUSE heaven has come to earth and flesh and blood can't inherit it. 

STAY WITH ME the words of God are PERFECT and GOD IS JUST.  Always our foundation.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 
Being resurrected in a spiritual body DOES NOT MEAN raised up with immortality/immortal. 

It does though;

 For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Even though the DEAD rise up in a spiritual body, they REMAIN spiritually dead, mortal/liable to die.  Mortal because they are raised up from the corruption, and the ONLY path left to immortality is through works which gets their names in the book of life at the GWTJ which takes 1000 years.

1 Cor 15:51-54 says different.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

again, they remain mortal because they remain spiritually 'dead' until BY THEIR WORKS they get their name in the book of life.  That is going to take them 1000 years.  No short cuts, no time off, no time shortened, they have to wait till the next judgment.  

"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."

They don't get 1000 years of living to do works, they don't come back to life until the millennial reign is complete.

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Why are THE DEAD raised up from the place of the dead?  TO LEARN GODS TRUTH AND TO BE RULED OVER with a ROD OF IRON, so the desire of God that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE is given every chance possible. 

NOT all the dead will be afforded this final opportunity.  There is the dividing of the 'sheep and goats'.  

You need to read Matt 25 again.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

This resurrection from hell ISN'T a 'second chance' FOR ANYONE WHO CHOSE DEATH, the ways of the world, or is EVIL ETC.

(though I would welcome being persuaded it could/would be a 2nd chance for those who took the mark of the beast having been deceived because of false doctrine and became bird food but pretty sure that is not going to fly)

So the resurrected DEAD will need to be divided.  Some cast back to hell death sea aka outer darkness...the sheep both Just and Unjust aka book of life or Lake of fire....NONE of them become immortal till the end, if at all.  
 

AGAIN, because I don't think I can put it forth enough, although risen to 'walk the earth' in a spiritual body, THEY REMAIN MORTAL

PROOF other than the dead lived not for 1000 years  

They were raised up from the corruption of the earth...neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

UNLIKE US, they can't EVER COME TO FAITH and GETTING THERE by WORKS takes a 1000 years.  Withe Christ is here, all that's left is KNOWLEDGE of exactly who He is. (every knee shall bow) and GODS TRUTH will be taught and LIVED here on earth as it is in heaven....

So, for the 1000 years, 'the spiritually dead' having risen from 'the place the spiritually dead', walk the earth still facing the GWTJ and the book of life or the 2nd death.  
 

They have to WAIT to come to LIFE because they have to WORK, and then be JUDGED WORTHY to get their names into the book of life and only then do they TRULY get to rise up AND BECOME IMMORTAL

Last time, Those who RISE/resurrect from 'the place of death' rise up in their spiritual body STILL subject to the 2nd death, so Mortal physically alive spiritually dead (not having attained to eternal salvation/life)  

At least that is what I see written

And I don't see that at all.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If you think that way, If you die prior to the 70th Week and the Beast being revealed; then you are in the same boat with Matthew, Mark, Luke,. John, Peter, and Paul, and others "In Christ Believers, Indwelt by the Holy Spirit" who have died over the past 2000 years. 

No. Promises were made to the 12 outside the scope of what I am presenting. The 12 and their role in the kingdom is in another category. Enoch and Elijah are both special cases as well. I'm not addressing the special cases, and there could be others of which I am not aware.

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

Where they are, you will be with them, waiting for the transformation.  They are part of the Dead in Christ who rise First.  Then those In Christ who are still alive will meet them in the air.  All here have been crucified with Christ (we already have died), We all have been buried in his baptism (we all are/were considered in the grave already). We all have been Resurrected with Christ, (therefore already guaranteed a place {the second in line, Christ being the First Fruit} into the 1st Resurrection).  This group of all is just waiting for their ascension, which is the Rapture (which is not a Resurrection).  Why, because those who have died, meet those still alive in the air, thus the term resurrection does not fit in a since, because those Alive go up also as a group.

I don't disagree on the surface. However, that's not the point. The point is the resurrection as described in Rev 7 and Rev 20.

Rev 20 clearly describes just who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years. It's either one category of people of specific attribute and accomplishment, or it's 3 categories. 

This either means each person must have

"been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,

not worshiped the beast or its image, 

not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

Or it's 3 categories under which any possessing a single attribute lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years.

An exception in my mind would be any one from all time who was ever beheaded for the Testimony of Jesus and the Word of God. They would all live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. 

That cannot possibly include every person who died in Christ from all time since, except one 3.5 year period that hasn't happened yet, no one single person, alive or dead, has ever had the opportunity to "not worship the beast or its image, and not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

But, Beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,? I hear that is happening in this millennium. They will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years.

 

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But what suck's is that all O.T. Saints from Adam to whomever died prior to Pentecost must wait till the 1000 years have ended to receive their entry into the First Resurrection.  This does not include those Just from Israel which arise prior to the onset of the 1000 years so they can dwell in their Land (last verse of Daniel).

True. But I didn't speak that. That's in Rev 20:4-5. 

But I don't think it's cause for despair either. God is just and compassionate. This is how the adjudication of the 2nd resurrection proceeds; "And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." 

"And if..." This is only if the name is not found. This language shows me the name not found is the exception, not the rule. It's only an IF, THEN operator and it's a positive.

If it was negative then the text would read, "And if anyone was found whose name was written in the Book of Life, he was allowed into heaven."

 

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I'm in my 70's, just waiting to go into the Father's House.

Me too and I do not care how, when, or why, as long as He sees me as worthy. 

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Check.

Maybe you know of only two. I know of at least five: of Jesus, of the saints who ascended from the dead shortly afterward, of those at His Parousia, of the two witnesses three+ years later, and of the post-wrath, post-Beast beheaded saints.

Not counting the post-millenial dead.

Yes. Not the context, but yes. The topic is about the end of the age and what is said about the resurrections and the people resurrected when Jesus returns. 

From what I hear there were many, many resurrections in the OT. Not to heaven, but resurrected from the dead.

I'm addressing the resurrection to live and reign with Christ and who is resurrected post GT at Jesus 2nd Coming.

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The only group seen in revelation 20:4 is Israel.That being the Israelis who don't worship the beast ,it's image or recieve it's mark.The remnant.

 

 

Revelation 20

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

=

 

Isaiah 14:2

Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the LORD’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.

 

 

It doesn't mean no other nations will be in the Lord's land ,but it is Israel that reigns with Christ over the nations in the Lord's land.

 

 

 

Correct. 

Israel is the seed of Abraham, those in Christ, heirs according to the promise. 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Correct. 

Israel is the seed of Abraham, those in Christ, heirs according to the promise. 

And a name given to one who has overcome.

Genesis 32:28

Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Revelation 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

Revelation 2:26

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have heard that before. However, Jesus said, "when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel...at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now,"

Sure there was tribulation, it was not 'great' since GT is described as 'unmatched' throughout all history. Some say even worse than the flood but I don't equate the two.

I KNOW the pre trib raptue doctrine has set forth this bloody killing of flesh and blood bodies all over the world, that if you don't believe it YOU are going to get LEFT BEHIND and every one who is LEFT BEHIND  IS  going to be TORTURED TO DEATH

 but since I don't believe in that doctrine, I also don't believe in their LEFT BEHIND horror story.  

I don't think THAT DOCTRINE takes into account the LOSING of ones soul to the other side, the DECEPTION as being the problem


 in which THE FLESH AND BLOOD BODY LOOKS ALIVE AS ALWAYS, BUT A SPIRITUAL DEATH HAS OCCURED 


"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV


We know Satan has always been the INFLUENCE of the kingdoms of the world but NEVER has he and his angels been kicked out of heaven and so he has never been here 'in person'.   

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJV

so this GREAT TRIBULATION such as the world has never seen MUST HAVE TO DO with the first WARNING Jesus gave us for the last days

DO NOT BE DECEIVED....



2347. thlipsis 
Strong's Concordance
thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.
HELPS Word-studies
2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

2347 /thlípsis ("compression, tribulation") carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in").

 

[By contrast, 4730 (stenoxōría) focuses on the external pressure exerted by circumstances.]

 

Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;

insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



Revelation 18:23 - And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

"And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people." Daniel 8:24 KJV

"And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." Daniel 8:25 KJV

Daniel 7:25 - And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 


32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.


Daniel 8:23-24 - And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.



Just seems to me if we get rid of the PRE TRIB flesh and blood GORY DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS...

AND PUT THE GREAT TRIB back In the words of God 

THE TRIB IS GREAT BECAUSE THE DECEPTION IS WORLDWIDE, and more believable than ever, AND ANY CHRISTIAN WHO KNOWS GODS TRUTH, HAS NO WHERE TO TURN.





Do you believe this is speaking to the time of the AOD?

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.

29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:35 AM, Diaste said:

Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered

Through the Bible we have record of the Lord rescuing those that are obedient and faith to Him to keep His faithful out of harms way as this is how the Lord has always done things.

Ya think this time is different?

 

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Works save no one; works prove the faith one received through grace.

And according to the Book of James (among others) faith without work is dead and not accepted by the Lord.

So, after getting born again, one can become disqualified by not having good works as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 9:27

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Stan Murff

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

1 Cor 15:51-54 says different.

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


WHAT DO THE LIVING DO WITH THE BODY FROM HEAVEN THEY ARE IN WHEN THEY RETURN with Christ


to receive the 'body' from the CORRUPTION OF THE GRAVE? 

 

Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved*, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

*pretty sure talking about it going back to dust

 

Are we RESURRECTED ONCE OR TWICE?  Do we have 2 bodies or 3?  

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

23 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

WHAT DO THE LIVING DO WITH THE BODY FROM HEAVEN THEY ARE IN WHEN THEY RETURN with Christ


to receive the 'body' from the CORRUPTION OF THE GRAVE? 

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is referring to those that have not died still on the earth when the catching away of the church takes place... our bodies shall be glorified.

The saints that have already died and gone to Heaven, their physical bodies will come up out of the ground and be glorified as they are reunited in their bodies.  In Heaven they are in a spiritual body as their physical body has not be raised up as of yet.

In the end, all saints will be in a glorified physical body just like what Jesus has now.