Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

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10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And again, I say that your conclusion is not proven by this Greek text. Which text is at least equally as likely, and probably more likely, to be correctly read "in the last day." That "day" possibly being millennial, or possibly meaning the last day of the Christian Age, and most likely meaning the whole span of time in which God's End Times judgements take place, called "the Day of the Lord."

We are ALL CHANGED in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump...it does not take 1000 years for an event to take place that happens TO ALL THE SAINTS, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...an event that happens to all in a moment DOES NOT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSAND YEARS...HOW WOULD AN EVENT THAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE SAINTS IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLING OF EYE, CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSANDS YEARS ...IT DOESN'T!!!

It happens on ONE SINGLE DAY, the LAST DAY...it is the last day of this age, and THEN the righteous begin their reign on the earth for the 1000 years...

 

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17 hours ago, The Light said:

There is the last day when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We of course see the harvest in Revelation 5

There is the last day of this age at the 6th seal when there is a gathering from heaven and earth. This is why after the 6th seal there is a great multitude.

Then there is a last day at the end of Gods wrath. There is a resurrection then also.

There is only one last day..the day Jesus resurrects all believers is that day...it is the day the 7th trumpet sounds...it does not spread out over different days and groups of people, as it is plain...WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...NOT SOME CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP, NOT SOME CHANGED AT ANOTHER DAY, NOT SOME RESURRECTED BUT NOT ASCENDED, NOT SOME NEVER CHANGED AT ALL...AND IT ALL HAPPENS IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...

JESUS COMES ON ONE SINGLE DAY, CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD...THIS IS WHEN PAUL SAID BOTH HIS COMING AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM WOULD OCCUR...HE SAID 'WE BESEECH YOU BY THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM...HE THEN SAYS THAT DAY, IN WHICH BOTH THE RAPTURE AND THE COMING OF THE LORD WILL OCCUR, WILL NOT COME EXCEPT CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN FIRST...

HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT DAYS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT GATHERINGS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT COMINGS, HE IS SAYING

THE COMING OF OUR LORD ....(SINGULAR)

AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM... (SINGULAR GATHERING, SINGULAR GROUP)

THAT DAY WILL NOT COME EXCEPT... (ONE SINGLE DAY)

YES ALL THE SCRIPTURES I AGREE WITH...YES, THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES WILL COME IN....

YES THERE IS A SIXTH SEAL...

YES THERE IS A RESURRECTION...

THE SCRIPTURES YOU GIVE DO NOT OVER RIDE  WHAT PAUL SAID...

THERE IS NO LAST TRUMP IN THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS IN THE SCRIPTURE

IF IT WAS THE LAST TRUMP, THEN ALL WOULD BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU DO NOT HAVE ALL BEING CHANGED IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU HAVE SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ONE TIME, AND SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ANOTHER TIME...IT WOULDN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL THE LAST TRUMP, YOU DO NOT FULFILL THE CRITERIA IN SCRIPTURE FOR WHAT HAPPENS AT THE LAST TRUMP

YOU HAVE TWO BRIDES ...GOD HAS ONE, CONSISTING OF BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS...JACOB HAD TWO BRIDES...GOD HAS ONE

YOU ARE FORCED TO COME WITH TWO RESURRECTIONS BECAUSE OF WHERE YOU PLACE THE RAPTURE...THIS IS THE WHOLE KEY TO ALL THE MISFITS...IF THE RAPTURE IS PLACED ANYWHERE BEFORE THE LAST DAY IT WILL NOT WORK...ALL CANNOT BE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME WHEN YOU DO THAT...!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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17 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to ignore that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah. 

Israel gets saved at the Second coming...they do not come down with the saints from heaven for they get converted BECAUSE Jesus comes down with all the saints and angels and delivers them...this has NOTHING to do with all being changed at the last trump ...IT DOES NOT DISANULL WHAT PAUL SAID...it is a diversion...Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in ...the fullness of the Gentiles is at the Second Coming...this is the same time Israel gets their eyes opened and repents and accepts Jesus...

THIS DOES NOT AFFECT THE RESURRECTION OF ALL BELIEVERS AT THE LAST DAY AT THE LAST TRUMP

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17 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to ignore that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah. 

The 144000 gets converted at the second coming...has nothing to do with the resurrection of the dead believers, whether Jew or Gentile...the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves will come forth...not some come forth at one time and some others at another time...at the 7th trumpet is the TIME OF THE DEAD...THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED...there is no resurrection of ANYONE before the 7th trumpet...when you say 'you seem to ignore that the fulness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah,' is the same thing as saying 'blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..'

Also has NOTHING TO DO WITH ALL BEING RESURRECTED AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY

[transmogrified]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

You also ignore that Israel was supposed to be the first harvest of the fig AT HER FIRST TIME. However, Israel served other Gods and they would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

 

you are talking about the branches that were cut off...of course unbelieving Israel of all time will not be in the resurrection of the righteous...the righteous of Israel will be raised at the same time all the other believers will be resurrected...at the 7th trumpet...Daniel says 'AT THAT TIME (that the man of sin comes to his end) will the good and the bad be resurrected...that time is at the 7th trumpet...ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE...BOTH GOOD AND BAD AND COME FORTH...HE WON'T LEAVE ONE PERSON IN THE GRAVES...

So saying 'Gentiles will be the first harvest' is nonsense...it has nothing to do whether you are a Jew or a Gentile..all the righteous whether Jew or Gentile are all resurrected at the same time...

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

We are ALL CHANGED in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump...it does not take 1000 years for an event to take place that happens TO ALL THE SAINTS, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...an event that happens to all in a moment DOES NOT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSAND YEARS...HOW WOULD AN EVENT THAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE SAINTS IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLING OF EYE, CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSANDS YEARS ...IT DOESN'T!!!

It happens on ONE SINGLE DAY, the LAST DAY...it is the last day of this age, and THEN the righteous begin their reign on the earth for the 1000 years...

 

All I can say is that you only are able to see what you believe. Tunnel vision.

Paul never mentions "the last day" in either his 1 Cor. 15 or 2 Thes. 4 resurrection-and-rapture prophecies. Jesus never defined the term when He used it. So that leaves you projecting your assumption into the Word.

But its not all that important of a matter. There will be a day when the resurrection-and-rapture takes place, and there will be a Day of the Lord that will last more than 24 hours. Jesus may have meant either one.

[transmogrified]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Ask any Rabbi what the last trump is, and you will get the same answer.

I have asked a Jew if he knew anything about a last trump...he had no clue...the practice of blowing the trumpet 100 times did not come into effect until Rabbi Abbhu instituted it in 3rd - 4th century...so the claim that people would relate to it during Paul's  day is bogus...in the Old testament there is nothing in the feast of trumpets that talks about a last trumpet..

In the Talmud era the tradition of the elders was to blow 9 times according to Wikipedia:

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The rabbis of the Talmud concluded that a shofar must be used for this blowing,[18] and that each teruah must be preceded and followed by a tekiah.[19] Since the word teruah appears three times in the Torah in connection with holidays of the seventh month, the rabbis concluded that a teruah must be blown three times,[20] making a total of nine blasts (three sets of tekiah-teruah-tekiah)

Then the tradition of the elders changed it to 30 times:
 

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In the Talmudic era, doubts arose regarding the correct sound of the teruah blast - whether it should be a series of short, lilting blasts similar to a person moaning (now known as shevarim), or else a staccato beat sound similar to a person whimpering (now known as teruah), or else a combination of the two sounds (shevarim-teruah).[24] Therefore, Rav Abbahu of Caesarea (3rd century CE), ruled that shofar blowing should be performed according to each of the three possibilities:

Three sets of tekiah, teruah, tekiah (in case what we call teruah is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

Three sets of tekiah, shevarim, tekiah (in case what we call shevarim is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

Three sets of tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah (in case what we call shevarim-teruah is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

If tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah is considered to be four blasts, then Rabbi Abbahu's requirement makes for a total of 30 blasts.

 

Another opinion was it should be blown 12 times:

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According to another opinion, Rabbi Abbahu instituted a total of 12 rather than 30 blasts, specifically tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah repeated three times.

Then it went to 30, to 40, 42, or 60:

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The Talmud specifies that the shofar is blown on two occasions on Rosh Hashana: once while "sitting" (before the Mussaf prayer), and once while "standing" (during the Mussaf prayer).[28] This increases the number of blasts from the basic requirement of 30, to 40, 42, or 60, based on the above-mentioned opinions.

In Medieval  times it went to 100:

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The Arukh mentions a custom to blow 100 blasts: 30 before Mussaf, 30 during the Mussaf silent prayer, 30 during the cantor's loud repetition of Mussaf, and 10 more after Mussaf.[29][30] The final 10 blasts are by tradition dating to the Geonim, and in some communities are blown in the middle of "Kaddish Tiskabal.

And how did they come up with 100 times? Because of how many tears Sisera's  mother allegedly cried when her son died:

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The number 100 in the Arukh is intended to correspond to the tears which Sisera's mother is said to have shed when her son was killed in battle.

How did they come up with 101 letters instead of 100?  Of course they left out one tear because of recognition of the  pain suffered by any bereaved mother...of course...who could doubt that?

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The short Biblical story of Sisera's mother contains 101 letters;[33] while the Arukh only mentions 100 blasts. This discrepancy is explained by saying that while each shofar blast is intended to "nullify" one of her cries due to hatred of Israel, nevertheless we leave her one tear out of recognition of the pain suffered by any bereaved mother.

There was never any last trumpet identified in the scriptural description of the feast of trumpets, much less anything to be derived from Jewish fables.

Paul told the Thessalonian believers there were two things that had to happen before the day of the Lord would come...neither one of them was to keep an eye out for the 10th, 12th, 30th, 40th, 42nd, 60th, 100th, or 101th time the Jews blew their shofars....

HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH JEWS BLOWING THEIR TRUMPETS...Jesus said

WHEN YOU SEE THE MAN OF SIN STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE THEN KNOW IT IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS...

Of course the real sign is downplayed by pre trib and made to pertain to the Jews themselves, or to those who alledgedly missed the rapture.

ANYTIME THE LAST TRUMPET REALLY SOUNDS, IT WILL NOT BE PART OF THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED...NOT AT ALL!! IT WILL BE ALL THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED AND THE LORD WILL COME ON THAT VERY DAY...!!!!!

 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

There will be a day when the resurrection-and-rapture takes place, and there will be a Day of the Lord that will last more than 24 hours. Jesus may have meant either one.

Yes, determined by the context....totally agree we will reign with him for 1000 years and sometimes that is referred to as one day...no problem...the issue is context..when it says we will reign with christ for that 1000 years, it is NOT meaning we  will reign for only one day...but when it says we will be resurrected on that day, it does NOT mean we will be getting resurrected during that whole thousand years...NO! We get resurrected and changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, and in THIS CONTEXT it is referring to ONE SPECIFIC DAY CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD...

We know the resurrection is not taking place during the thousand years, for ALL The saints are in glorified bodies during the entire time...no one else gets added to the list AT ALL DURING THAT TIME FOR ALL WERE ALREADY CHANGED WHEN HE CAME...!!!

[The Light]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

There was never any last trumpet identified in the scriptural description of the feast of trumpets, much less anything to be derived from Jewish fables.

Of course the real sign is downplayed by pre trib and made to pertain to the Jews themselves, or to those who alledgedly missed the rapture.

Leviticus 23

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

Numbers 29

1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

After a day of blowing trumpets, it doesn't seem logical that there would be a long trumpet blast signaling that this was the last trump and the start of the new year. Nah. Why would they do that?

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

ANYTIME THE LAST TRUMPET REALLY SOUNDS, IT WILL NOT BE PART OF THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED...NOT AT ALL!! IT WILL BE ALL THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED AND THE LORD WILL COME ON THAT VERY DAY...!!!!!

 

Those that are Christs at His coming will be raised at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. 

[The Light]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is only one last day..the day Jesus resurrects all believers is that day...it is the day the 7th trumpet sounds...it does not spread out over different days and groups of people, as it is plain...WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...NOT SOME CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP, NOT SOME CHANGED AT ANOTHER DAY, NOT SOME RESURRECTED BUT NOT ASCENDED, NOT SOME NEVER CHANGED AT ALL...AND IT ALL HAPPENS IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...

JESUS COMES ON ONE SINGLE DAY, CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD...THIS IS WHEN PAUL SAID BOTH HIS COMING AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM WOULD OCCUR...HE SAID 'WE BESEECH YOU BY THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM...HE THEN SAYS THAT DAY, IN WHICH BOTH THE RAPTURE AND THE COMING OF THE LORD WILL OCCUR, WILL NOT COME EXCEPT CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN FIRST...

The 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the wrath of God. The last trump will sound at the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus returns and then there is a great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper. 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT DAYS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT GATHERINGS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT COMINGS, HE IS SAYING

THE COMING OF OUR LORD ....(SINGULAR)

AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM... (SINGULAR GATHERING, SINGULAR GROUP)

THAT DAY WILL NOT COME EXCEPT... (ONE SINGLE DAY)

That day...........the day of the Lord........... will not come before the gathering from heaven and earth. Hence when Jesus comes at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather the elect there will be a harvest and then the wrath of God will begin after the 1st trumpet sounds.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

THERE IS NO LAST TRUMP IN THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS IN THE SCRIPTURE

There is a day of blowing trumpets and it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever to have a long trumpet blast signaling the last trumpet before the start of the new year. 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

IF IT WAS THE LAST TRUMP, THEN ALL WOULD BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU DO NOT HAVE ALL BEING CHANGED IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU HAVE SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ONE TIME, AND SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ANOTHER TIME...IT WOULDN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL THE LAST TRUMP, YOU DO NOT FULFILL THE CRITERIA IN SCRIPTURE FOR WHAT HAPPENS AT THE LAST TRUMP

Those that are Christs at His coming.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

YOU HAVE TWO BRIDES ...GOD HAS ONE, CONSISTING OF BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS...JACOB HAD TWO BRIDES...GOD HAS ONE

There are two folds. Those that hear His voice will be the 1st fold. Other sheep not of this fold will hear His voice. He will also bring them to the place He has prepared. Two separate folds into one fold.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

YOU ARE FORCED TO COME WITH TWO RESURRECTIONS BECAUSE OF WHERE YOU PLACE THE RAPTURE...THIS IS THE WHOLE KEY TO ALL THE MISFITS...IF THE RAPTURE IS PLACED ANYWHERE BEFORE THE LAST DAY IT WILL NOT WORK...ALL CANNOT BE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME WHEN YOU DO THAT...!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

And yet you don't understand that the last day occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.

As to those resurrected God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. But they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest.

The Gentiles will be the first harvest and those that are Christs at His coming will be raptured. That is when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. After that, part of Israel will have its eyes opened which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest as God turns His attention to the Chosen bride.