Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

15 minutes ago, The Light said:

However, the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal

However there is no coming of Jesus at the sixth seal...he comes on the day of the Lord, not before the day of the Lord....

[transmogrified]

29 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The point is THAT DAY (singular day) is when both the coming of the Lord and the rapture occurs..

Correct. At the sixth seal.

Except he does not come at the sixth seal...the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE (not at the same time) that great and notable day of the Lord come...

Rephrased...the sixth seal shall happen BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come...

Rephrased...The great and notable day of the Lord happens AFTER the sixth seal, NOT at the same time of the sixth seal...the sixth seal happens BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES...the Sixth seal and the day of the Lord are NOT THEREFORE THE SAME DAY...The sixth seal happens on one day, that day of the Lord happens on another day...NOT THE SAME DAY!!!!!

[transmogrified]

34 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

.HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

Incorrect. Jesus comes for His Church before the seals are opened. Jesus then returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can see that in Matthew 24

You are confirming what was said...the sixth seal takes place on another day than the last day...this is exactly opposite of what Jesus said as he said 'all those that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...notice he did not say:

'Some of those that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day, and some of those that believe will be raised ON the last day...' NO...NO...NO...NO...NO...he did not say what you are saying ...ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!!!

He also did not say 'all that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day...' NO...He said 'All that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...'

Your quote is exactly opposite of what Jesus said...Jesus said all will be raised on the last day, and paul said at the last trump and you say:

Quote

INCORRECT..

When it is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

[transmogrified]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:48 AM, Diaste said:

You need to look at what you say here:

"She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming.."

"and they come down with Jesus at the second coming.."

Are they ascending and returning in the same moment?

No of course not...the rapture (our gathering together unto him) and the coming of the Lord (the second coming) both take place on the same day...not at the same exact moment...

Paul said we beseech you by the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him that you be not soon shaken in mind neither by spirit nor by word, or by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST is at hand...'

He then goes on to say that THAT DAY (the day in which both the rapture and the second coming take place) will not come unless there come a falling away first...

So what does this mean? It means that both the rapture (gathering together of the saints unto Jesus) and the second coming will both take place on one singular day called the day of the Lord...

So yes, she (the bride) ascends up (gets raptured) on one day (the day of the Lord) and then she (the saints) come down with Jesus on the same day at the second coming...

OF COURSE THEY DON'T GO UP AND COME DOWN AT THE SAME MOMENT...THAT IS RIDICULOUS...!!!

[RdJ]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Resurrection does not mean ascension into heaven...the two witnesses were killed and lay in the street for 3.5 days...they were RESURRECTED, and stood upon their feet...guess what? Resurrection did not mean they were also ascended up into heaven...it was not till they heard the voice saying 'come up hither, that they ascended up to heaven in a cloud... This is called the rapture and its detailed out in a similar description in 1 Thess. 4...all are changed...meaning all, both dead and living saints receive their glorified body...that is the CHANGE into immortality...it does not also mean ASCENDED up to heaven...so all are changed, but then the DEAD IN CHRIST rise first...this does not mean the were resurrected FIRST, for the living are not dead, therefore they are not resurrected at all...so it means the dead in Christ RISE FIRST UP INTO HEAVEN...those who are alive and remain are not caught up into heaven AT THE SAME TIME THE DEAD RISE UP...that is what is meant by the dead in Christ will rise first...AFTER they have ascended up into heaven, they then COME BACK with Jesus with all those who sleep in Jesus, or in other words, with all the saints who have been resurrected from all time, from Adam until the second coming, and then THE LIVING rise up to meet the Lord and those who sleep in Jesus in the air and then all the saints descend downward to the earth to live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years...

SO THEY 'DON'T GET UP THERE BEFORE THE RAPTURE...' the two witnesses had died and yet their bodies were still lying in the street for 3.5 days...so their BODY was not 'UP THERE' until they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

The scripture showing those killed by the beast lived and reigned with Christ is absolutely true, however they are not the only ones who live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years, nor were they the only ones who were resurrected as Paul says 'I show you a mystery....we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed...this does not mean just the tribulation saints get changed...it does not just mean the 'church age' saints get changed...(which is a misnomer...as the 'church age' is an artificial man made distinction made to apply only to those who lived and died from Pentecost to before the tribulation...which is false as the church just means the congregation of the Lord, which has been from Adam and forward...)

It does not mean just the OT saints gets changed...it means ALL THE SAINTS from all time are changed at the last and seventh trumpet...not before and not after...

You don't go by assumptions...the rest must have been raised already is absolutely false...ALL are changed at one time, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump..not some here, some at another time...NO NO NO!!!

ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP which does not happen until AFTER the tribulation when Jesus comes...and NOT BEFORE!!!

But the text says it's only the ones from the trib, so the first resurrection is in 2 or actually more stages, cause I forgot the 2 witnesses. That's exactly what Ken Peters saw in a dream in the 80s just before he got saved. He saw the graves open and those people vanish. He didnt see the rapture, but there was panic because of all the people who were gone and then the 7 years started.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

No of course not...the rapture (our gathering together unto him) and the coming of the Lord (the second coming) both take place on the same day...not at the same exact moment...

Arrival first, then the gathering.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Paul said we beseech you by the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him that you be not soon shaken in mind neither by spirit nor by word, or by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST is at hand...'

He then goes on to say that THAT DAY (the day in which both the rapture and the second coming take place) will not come unless there come a falling away first...

So what does this mean? It means that both the rapture (gathering together of the saints unto Jesus) and the second coming will both take place on one singular day called the day of the Lord...

So yes, she (the bride) ascends up (gets raptured) on one day (the day of the Lord) and then she (the saints) come down with Jesus on the same day at the second coming...

Wrong order.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

OF COURSE THEY DON'T GO UP AND COME DOWN AT THE SAME MOMENT...THAT IS RIDICULOUS...!!!

Idk. It doesn't seem any less ridiculous that rescuing one's bride from her tormenters only to tell her she now has to go fight against those same tormenters. 

And it's pretty much the same moment in any case. The second coming is when the rapture occurs. The order is:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven

with a loud command,

with the voice of an archangel,

and with the trumpet of God,

and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise"

The 2nd coming happens before the rapture.

"concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

When Jesus comes, not after.

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,

with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call,

and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The gathering is immediately after Jesus arrives.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Almost every dictionary you will look at states that the word myriad is either a noun or an adjective depending on how it is used in a phrase...IT DOES NOT SAY MYRIAD IS EXCLUSIVELY A NOUN...ABSOLUTELY FALSE...

Dictionary.com
 

Vocabulary.com
 

Your quote:

You state that murios is a noun BECAUSE it is not a definite number and is uncountable...the dictionary defines it in EXACTLY the opposite way...that it is an adjective BECAUSE it is uncountable.

Also the dictionary states that IF the number was a definite number it would be a noun...also EXACTLY the opposite of what you state...

In the Greek from the NT it is a noun. Doesn't matter what the other sources say. Jude used it as he used it, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the will of the Father. 

Therefore, it is holy myriads, not holy elect saints, not holy angels...holy myriads. It could be saints, but that isn't proven here. 

 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus had not yet arrived on the earth when the two witnesses were resurrected. You say they aren't even resurrected until Jesus arrives...in looking at the two witnesses the first thing that happened to them was that they were resurrected after laying in the street for 3.5 days...Jesus did not come down to the earth and then they were resurrected...they were laying in the street and what happened? They arose and stood on their feet...what happened then? The voice came from heaven saying 'come up hither...' Then what happened? They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY THE DEAD RISING FIRST...THEY VISIBLY ROSE UP INTO HEAVEN...JESUS WAS NOT ON THE EARTH WHEN THEY ROSE...THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM GOING UP...ARE THEY GOING UP WHEN JESUS HAS ALREADY SET FOOT ON THE MT. OF OLIVES?

Category error. The resurrection of the two witnesses does not have to apply to the whole set, a one time incident does not prove the same must occur for any other group. 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Flesh out the scripture in 1 Thess. 4 even according to what you are saying..you say there is no resurrection until Jesus ARRIVES. If by arrival you mean he has set foot on the Mt. of Olives it will not work, or if by arrival you mean he comes down to the air but not on the earth it will still not work...

It works just fine. Paul said so.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and

the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be

caught up together with them

in the clouds

to meet the Lord

in the air.

And so we will always be with the Lord."

Seems Paul thinks it works just fine.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

For example, if you believe Jesus comes to the air and then the resurrection takes place what do you have? You have the dead in Christ being resurrected and then they ASCEND UP FIRST...SO LISTEN TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

Exactly what Paul says, see 1Thess 4:16-17

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If you believe the dead in Christ will truly rise up into the air then what have you got? You have the resurrected saints up in the air with Jesus and then the living go up to meet them...so then what happens? Are all these saints just going to stay up in the air and Jesus comes on down with just the angels to the earth...?

What happens???

" And so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4:17

 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The only way all these saints that are up there in the air can  come down to the earth is that they must COME BACK WITH JESUS...THE VERY THING YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT. What happens to them?

I can't assume anything. I don't see it written where the raptured saints immediately return as an army. All I see is assumption and supposition. And not just from you, it's a whole lot of people thinking this. It's odd to me since no direct statement declares this, nor indirect statement implies this, that I am aware.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

At some point all these saints that are up there have to come down to the earth...

But when? You assume it's to fight a war. I say that isn't so. No evidence for them fighting a war or making up an army.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

You admit Jesus is in the air and the saints are caught up to meet him, yet you deny that all these saints will come back with Jesus and it is impossible because they are not resurrected until he arrives. If you think this just means they are resurrected first, then why would the living be caught up to meet them IN THE AIR, if they are just resurrected and still on the ground? No...they are up in the air and the living are caught up to meet them.

No, no...they will come back, I just don't know the details of the time between the rapture and living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years. No one does. It's not written, it's supposed.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

No, it absolutely means they rise up into the air and then the living come back with them...but who are these that we are talking about? Are they angels? No of course not...they are saints of the most high God and in order for them to get down to the earth from being in the air, they ALL HAVE TO COME DOWN WITH JESUS DO THEY NOT?

If that's what happens. All I see is the 2nd coming, the dead rising into the air, in the clouds, the living meeting them and the Lord in the air, then being with the Lord for ever. I don't see Paul say they 'come back down'. Where does Paul write that? Does anyone record that?

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

And if by 'arrival to the earth' you mean he actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives and then the dead are resurrected what do you have? The same impossible situation...i.e. if Jesus is over there at the Mt. of Olives and we are CAUGHT UP to meet him IN THE AIR, WHEN HE IS NOT IN THE AIR, BUT OVER ON THE MT. OF OLIVES, IT AGAIN MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

Simple. Jesus is not said to touch down at the gathering. He is in the air when the resurrected dead and the remaining living meet Him there. 

"to meet the Lord in the air." is what is said. 

A descent to the atmosphere is a descent from higher planes. You assume His descent can only ever mean a decent to the ground. Airplane and submarines can descend from higher to lower levels. An airplane descends to an altitude and holds there and does not touch down. Same thing. The first appearance of Jesus is His descent from heaven to the air.

"to meet the Lord in the air." already posted that. 

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory"

Jesus arrives here in the air. Then the gathering takes place. 

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The saints would not be caught up into the air and the clouds, but rather they would be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus ON THE MT. OF OLIVES...which is ridiculous for when he sets foot on the mt. of Olives the saints have already CAME WITH HIM, not that they have been TRANSPORTED OVER TO HIM...

This is just another non sequitur in a series. The evidence shows Jesus arrive first in the clouds in the air where the saints meet Him. What happens to the saints after this and before the time the saints live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years is any one's guess. There is nothing written about it, but a whole lot is assumed.

[The Light]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Except he does not come at the sixth seal...the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE (not at the same time) that great and notable day of the Lord come...

He does come at the 6th seal. Here is the proof. He comes immedieately after the tribulation BEFORE the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the trumpets. The trumpets happen at the 7th seal

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is a great multitude in heaven just after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Rev 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

You can deny the TRUTH all you want. It does not change the truth. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering and then the 7th seal is opened, and the day of the Lord can begin. Just as the Word says.

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Rephrased...the sixth seal shall happen BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come...

It's what I have been repeating over and over and over. The day of the Lord begins after Jesus returns for the gathering at the 6th seal.

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Rephrased...The great and notable day of the Lord happens AFTER the sixth seal, NOT at the same time of the sixth seal. .the sixth seal happens BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES...the Sixth seal and the day of the Lord are NOT THEREFORE THE SAME DAY...The sixth seal happens on one day, that day of the Lord happens on another day...NOT THE SAME DAY!!!!!

Exactly what I have been saying. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering. We see the great multitude in heaven which is additional proof. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the day of the Lord can begin.

 

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

[The Light]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

You are confirming what was said...the sixth seal takes place on another day than the last day...this is exactly opposite of what Jesus said as he said 'all those that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...notice he did not say:

'Some of those that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day, and some of those that believe will be raised ON the last day...' NO...NO...NO...NO...NO...he did not say what you are saying ...ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!!!

He also did not say 'all that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day...' NO...He said 'All that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...'

Your quote is exactly opposite of what Jesus said...Jesus said all will be raised on the last day, and paul said at the last trump and you say:

When it is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

You are misquoting and misunderstanding scripture.

Please provide ONE scriptural proof that the righteous dead are raised ON THE LAST DAY.

 

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

But the text says it's only the ones from the trib, so the first resurrection is in 2 or actually more stages, cause I forgot the 2 witnesses

There is no stages except Christ is the first that rose and afterward those that are Christs at his coming.. Do just those who are beheaded for Christ during the tribulation belong to him? NO OF COURSE  NOT…!!  All those that belonged to God were given to Christ so every saint from Adam to the second coming will be in the first resurrection.. That is why Paul said WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT INTGE TWINKLING OF AN EYE AT THE LAST TRUMP.. 

All means all- all does not mean just tribulation saints.. all does not just mean saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. all does not just mean Old Testament Saint.. ALL MEANS ALL THE DEAD SAINTS WILL BE RESURRECTED AND RISE TO HEAVEN AND THEN COME BACK WITH CHRIST TO RULE AND REIGN ON THE EARTH FOR 1000 YEARS!!!