Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

  On 9/1/2023 at 2:41 PM, AdHoc said:

The rapture is perverted. 1st Thessalonians 14 says that the sequence is (i) Christ descending, (ii) a shout and a trumpet, (iii) the dead RISING, (iv) the dead, having RISEN, meet the living. (v) These (the living) are on the surface of the earth, and so are the newly RISEN dead because (vi) "TOGETHER" they are caught away. But Christian doctrine must refuse one or more facts because if the dead are in heaven then they cannot RISE to meet the living, or, they must DESCEND to meet the living and then they have been with the Lord, so how can they MEET the One who they were just seconds before.

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Yes, when Christ descends, he brings those that sleep with him...meaning the dead were up in heaven and then God brings them down from heaven...hence the phrase, 'the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee.'

However, they are not 'together caught away,' for the dead rise first, then the living only go up to meet them in the clouds when Jesus has brought them down from heaven...so the together part is when the living ascend up to meet the dead who are coming down..

But as far as the dead not being able to RISE to meet the dead because they are coming DOWN from heaven is solved by 1 Thess. 4 saying they RISE (to heaven) first, then they turn around and DESCEND down as the living rise up to meet them in the clouds...however the phrase 'how can they meet the one who they were [with]  just seconds before,' is not right. The dead are not descending down to meet Jesus...the living are rising up to meet Jesus and the dead in the clouds.

[AdHoc]

  On 9/1/2023 at 4:52 PM, transmogrified said:

From the above quotation it seemed you disagreed that dead men go to heaven. The two prophets died and were resurrected and went to heaven. As far as trib saints, I am only meaning saints who would be living during the time of great tribulation.

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Then you agree with me. They went to heaven ALIVE. Resurrection causes the dead to live.

[AdHoc]

  On 9/1/2023 at 5:03 PM, Montana Marv said:

Rev 14:6 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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But this is "The Eternal Gospel". It is given in the next verse. Christ's Work is not mentioned.

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Re 14:7).

The "Eternal Gospel" is that God is Creator and men, who are His creatures, should give Him the glory. To have one's sin ans sins removed, be born again, be partaker of the divine nature and be a son of God you must believe in Jesus and His Work and confess it.

[AdHoc]

  On 9/1/2023 at 5:17 PM, Still Alive said:

When I became a Christian in 1981, I started out pre-trib. then, after studying the issue, I became "mid-trib", also known as "post tribulation, pre-wrath of God".

I am now "pan-trib". i.e. it all pans out in the end. I'm more focused on the core teachings of Jesus now - My relationship with my creator and my relationship with my fellow man. The rest is just so much noise that either enhances or distracts from those two. 

It really got amplified when I spent 11 hours on an operating table 5 months ago undergoing open heart surgery. I'm a couple of months away from 70.

Fortunately it was brought on by a birth defect and not lifestyle/diet. IOW, I'm healthy as an ox now, but my world view has changed in some areas and strengthened in all of them. I'm a pretty strong follower of the late Dr. Michael Heiser and one of the things I gleaned from him is that we had better be careful basing "non-critical" doctrine on our flawed English translations of the bible. Don't stand strongly behind positions supported by questionable scripture. 

I'm not even convinced there really is a "rapture" any more, though I hope that if there is, it is "pre-trib". Who wouldn't want to avoid all the mayhem. But then, what Characters in all of our bible stories avoided all the mayhem? How did the apostles die? 

Then again, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and I consider all hardship to be a teaching moment. I basically see this life as a "boot camp". Like a life simulation video game, I know I'm not getting out of it alive, so I'm playing the "game" the Lord put me here to play. 

My focus now is enhancing my relationship with my Creator and His Son. And the more I rely on him and trust him, the more joy and UNDERSTANDING I receive. I think that when we die we're all gonna have a great conversation over a cup of coffee in Heaven's cafeteria about all the stuff we were so dead wrong about. But one thing I hope we got right is the personality of our Creator and the hope he offers through his son's death and resurrection.

BTW, start with Psalm 82:1, in the original language.

 

BTW number two: Two weeks after the surgery on discharge day:

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Hi, and I'm glad your surgery worked out. I can empathize. Thought I was healthy until I got two stents in one year. I really enjoyed your candidness, and I have to agree with most of it. The only part I would call "an essential doctrine" is that Paul speaks of an "out-resurrection" which one must "attain to" and an "Upward-call" that is a PRIZE. The text is Philippians 3:9-14. The subject is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4 - resurrection and "shout" or call that results in us going upward (lit. Gk.).

Paul likens our Christian life to an Olympic marathon. We run, we endure the pain, we fall, we get up and run further, we run with patience and we don't entangle ourselves with things that can hinder. Because it is a personal race, there is only one winner or one loser - yourself. The PRIZE is a crown. A crown is for ruling. And that was God's original purpose in Genesis 1:26-28 - to rule. It is also the biggest subject of the New Testament - the Kingdom. Both Paul and Peter strove for this crown, and missing the Kingdom leads to "outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth". I dare say this sounds serious.

The answer I always give concerning escaping the Great Tribulation is that the tribulation we face as Christians is either the wrath of men or Satan. But the Great Tribulation is a short period of the wrath of God. "Wrath" is mentioned 13 times in Revelation, 10 times it is God's wrath, once it is the wrath of men, once the wrath of Satan and once the wrath of Babylon. The Great Tribulation, originating with God, cannot be compared with what men can do. Matthew 10:28 sas that whatever men can do to you is NOTHING compared to what God can do.

I judge that we should strive to miss this time. In Revelation 7 we come across Christians who passed through the Tribulation. They needed rehab by God (vs.16-17).

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes (Re 7:13–17)

It is noteworthy that the three scriptures that indicate a pre-tribulation rapture are ALL CONDITIONAL. Luke 21:35-36 says, "be found worthy", 1st Thessalonians* 5:9 says we are "not appointed", which does not mean "guaranteed", and Revelation 3:10 says "because you ... ". It would seem that there is a way to miss the Great Tribulation, but it must be "ATTAINED TO".

 

* I would like to add that beside Philadelphia, the Ekklesia at Thessaloniki was the best of all the Churches (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3 for accolades)

 

[AdHoc]

  On 9/1/2023 at 5:38 PM, transmogrified said:

Yes, when Christ descends, he brings those that sleep with him...meaning the dead were up in heaven and then God brings them down from heaven...hence the phrase, 'the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee.'

However, they are not 'together caught away,' for the dead rise first, then the living only go up to meet them in the clouds when Jesus has brought them down from heaven...so the together part is when the living ascend up to meet the dead who are coming down..

But as far as the dead not being able to RISE to meet the dead because they are coming DOWN from heaven is solved by 1 Thess. 4 saying they RISE (to heaven) first, then they turn around and DESCEND down as the living rise up to meet them in the clouds...however the phrase 'how can they meet the one who they were [with]  just seconds before,' is not right. The dead are not descending down to meet Jesus...the living are rising up to meet Jesus and the dead in the clouds.

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I understand it thus.

The short time that Paul was in Thessaloniki was not enough to teach all there is on the rapture. He left hurriedly. Because the rapture is for the LIVING, the saints at Thessaloniki became saddened when some of the saints died. Paul writes to them to COMFORT them with the news that the dead in Christ will not suffer any disadvantage by being dead.

The early Church did not have Rome to interfere with any doctrine. Rome was their enemy. So the Thessalonian saints knew that at death, our Lord went to the "heart of the earth". Their dilemma was that it is promised that when the Lord returns, He will bring the saints with Him. The question then was, how does God get dead saints from under the ground to the sky so that they can "come WITH" Christ when He touches down on Mount Olives?. The solution is simple. The dead (who are in Hades) RISE (like our Lord Jesus did). This solves two problems for the Thessalonians. (1) The dead IN Christ are alive again, and (2) the dead in Christ are in the same position to be raptured - for they are now on the surface of the earth. The LIVING are then changed as 1st Corinthians 15:50-54 predicts, and TOGETHER they are caught away from the surface of the earth to the clouds where they MEET the DESCENDING Lord.

Paul ends his teaching with "with these words COMFORT one another".

Here is the opposite argument:

If dead men go to heaven, they do so without a body (2nd Cor.5:1-5 says that at death we shed our body). If they are in heaven already, they CANNOT RISE. There is only one way from heaven to earth and that is DOWN. If they are in heaven and you can somehow get them their bodies, they still CANNOT be caught away TOGETHER with the LIVING. If they were in heaven without their bodies, 2nd Corinthians 5 says that they are NAKED and the whole Old Testament says that they are UNCLEAN. 2nd Corinthians 5 also says that in their nakedness they GROAN. Thus heaven (God's Throne) is a place of nakedness, uncleanness and  suffering.

There are some more problems, but I will leave it there. Take our Lord Jesus as the perfect example. He dies and goes to the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40). He does not go anywhere else because Ephesians 4:8 says He went to the depths of the earth "FIRST" and He also told Mary, after His resurrection, that He had not YET ascended to His Father, but that He was about to go there (Jn.20:17). Mary may not touch Him. But that evening He orders His disciples to "handle Him". He had thus, been to the Father and back. His journey from the dead was; (i) He died and went to Hades. (2) He ROSE and met Mary on the surface of the earth. (3) he is caught away to meet the Father (direction clouds). He meets with the Father, presents His blood (Heb.8) and is approved. He DESCENDS back to earth to breath the Holy Spirit into His disciples (Jn.20:22).

This sequence is according to the Word. It produces no absurdities. It fulfills what our Lord predicted in John 14. It is logical and serves a purpose of getting a dead man up to the sky and back. So also is 1st Thessalonians 4. It tells of how the dead will be able to COME WITH the Lord. They are in Hades. They RISE to the surface to meet the LIVING. TOGETHER they are caught away to the clouds to meet a DESCENDING Lord. They pause and are judged. They then continue the journey from the clouds to Mount Olives. Simple, logical and according to the Word.

[Still Alive]

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:07 PM, AdHoc said:

Hi, and I'm glad your surgery worked out. I can empathize. Thought I was healthy until I got two stents in one year. I really enjoyed your candidness, and I have to agree with most of it. The only part I would call "an essential doctrine" is that Paul speaks of an "out-resurrection" which one must "attain to" and an "Upward-call" that is a PRIZE. The text is Philippians 3:9-14. The subject is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4 - resurrection and "shout" or call that results in us going upward (lit. Gk.).

Paul likens our Christian life to an Olympic marathon. We run, we endure the pain, we fall, we get up and run further, we run with patience and we don't entangle ourselves with things that can hinder. Because it is a personal race, there is only one winner or one loser - yourself. The PRIZE is a crown. A crown is for ruling. And that was God's original purpose in Genesis 1:26-28 - to rule. It is also the biggest subject of the New Testament - the Kingdom. Both Paul and Peter strove for this crown, and missing the Kingdom leads to "outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth". I dare say this sounds serious.

The answer I always give concerning escaping the Great Tribulation is that the tribulation we face as Christians is either the wrath of men or Satan. But the Great Tribulation is a short period of the wrath of God. "Wrath" is mentioned 13 times in Revelation, 10 times it is God's wrath, once it is the wrath of men, once the wrath of Satan and once the wrath of Babylon. The Great Tribulation, originating with God, cannot be compared with what men can do. Matthew 10:28 sas that whatever men can do to you is NOTHING compared to what God can do.

I judge that we should strive to miss this time. In Revelation 7 we come across Christians who passed through the Tribulation. They needed rehab by God (vs.16-17).

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes (Re 7:13–17)

It is noteworthy that the three scriptures that indicate a pre-tribulation rapture are ALL CONDITIONAL. Luke 21:35-36 says, "be found worthy", 1st Thessalonians* 5:9 says we are "not appointed", which does not mean "guaranteed", and Revelation 3:10 says "because you ... ". It would seem that there is a way to miss the Great Tribulation, but it must be "ATTAINED TO".

 

* I would like to add that beside Philadelphia, the Ekklesia at Thessaloniki was the best of all the Churches (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3 for accolades)

 

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I think we are mostly in agreement on this issue. I'll throw out one clarification, though: I see those that came out of the great tribulation as those who were alive at the time when the great tribulation hit (I think we may already be there or close to it), and they are removed at the end of the tribulation  (3.5 years) and before what follows, the wrath of God.

But one of the most important scriptures for me, regarding the "saved" is 1 Cor 3:12-15

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Bottom line to me is that "saved" is a starting point, not an ending point.

[transmogrified]

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, AdHoc said:

The short time that Paul was in Thessaloniki was not enough to teach all there is on the rapture. He left hurriedly. Because the rapture is for the LIVING, t

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The rapture just means being caught up....it happens to both groups, the dead and the living...the dead rise first, then the living...

 

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, AdHoc said:

Their dilemma was that it is promised that when the Lord returns, He will bring the saints with Him. The question then was, how does God get dead saints from under the ground to the sky so that they can "come WITH" Christ when He touches down on Mount Olives?.

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Some will say, how will the dead rise, and with what body will they come...what comes up is not the same body that was sown...it is changed..that is how God describes it...all the days of my appointed time will I wait until my change comes...that means mortal puts on immortality...it doesn't matter about how far the body is decomposed...Lazarus had already begun to stink, but God still raised him up...those that sleep in the dust of the earth the same thing...the dust they were living in is changed at the Second Coming...the deal with the two prophets is there is no mention at all of their spirit returning into their body...It seems both the body and spirit is changed, as it does not say....'and the spirits of the two prophets returned back into their body and they stood upon their feet...no...it says 'the spirit of life from God entered them, and they stood upon their feet

 

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, AdHoc said:

This solves two problems for the Thessalonians. (1) The dead IN Christ are alive again, and (2) the dead in Christ are in the same position to be raptured - for they are now on the surface of the earth. The LIVING are then changed as 1st Corinthians 15:50-54 predicts,

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All are changed at the same time...not the dead changed first, then the living

 

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, AdHoc said:

The LIVING are then changed as 1st Corinthians 15:50-54 predicts, and TOGETHER they are caught away from the surface of the earth to the clouds where they MEET the DESCENDING Lord.

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no, it says the living meet the dead who are descending down from heaven...revelation states John heard a multitude of people in heaven...these were the dead in Christ who had just risen...they are now up in heaven just before Christ descends at Armageddon..that is what Paul meant by those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him...because they are up in heaven the bringing mode is from heaven to the earth, not from earth to heaven...that is why the dead in Christ rise first...so they can be up there in heaven so God can bring them with them ...the living do not ascend to heaven...they only rise to meet them in the clouds and then turn around and return to the earth so all the saints will be coming with him when he comes.

 

  On 9/2/2023 at 1:54 PM, AdHoc said:

They RISE to the surface to meet the LIVING. TOGETHER they are caught away to the clouds to meet a DESCENDING Lord. They pause and are judged.

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There is no judgment in the clouds...the judgement takes place at the sheep and goat judgment...this specifically states it is when all people will be gathered before him and the separation takes place...there is no bema in heaven...the sheep and the goats is the same judgment Daniel saw, when it says 'And I beheld till the thrones were cast down...(second coming) and the Ancient of days did set, ( when the son of man shall come in all his glory with all the holy angels, THEN SHALL HE SET UPON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY...this is the judgment day..not up in heaven

[Montana Marv]

  On 9/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, AdHoc said:

But this is "The Eternal Gospel". It is given in the next verse. Christ's Work is not mentioned.

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Re 14:7).

The "Eternal Gospel" is that God is Creator and men, who are His creatures, should give Him the glory. To have one's sin ans sins removed, be born again, be partaker of the divine nature and be a son of God you must believe in Jesus and His Work and confess it.

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Then why is this angel not proclaiming the eternal gospel now?  Never seen him or heard of anyone hearing him.  Have you!

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

  On 9/2/2023 at 12:07 PM, AdHoc said:

Then you agree with me. They went to heaven ALIVE. Resurrection causes the dead to live.

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Of course they were all alive on the ground before they ascended...but the living did not go to heaven....they ascended to Meet those that were dead coming down with Jesus...that is why the dead rose first so they could come down with Jesus, remember he gathers his elect from the uttermost part of heaven...which would be where the dead would have been resurrected to, plus he gathers them from the uttermost parts of the earth, which would be the living believers...but where does he gather them dead TO? He gathers them from heaven to the CLOUDS, and then the living from the earth are gathered to the clouds so both living and dead meet in the clouds and then proceed on downward to Armageddon

[transmogrified]

  On 9/2/2023 at 4:27 PM, Montana Marv said:

But this is "The Eternal Gospel". It is given in the next verse. Christ's Work is not mentioned.

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Re 14:7).

The "Eternal Gospel" is that God is Creator and men, who are His creatures, should give Him the glory. To have one's sin ans sins removed, be born again, be partaker of the divine nature and be a son of God you must believe in Jesus and His Work and confess it.

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The gospel is still in effect during the tribulation...nothing changes until Christ comes...we apply it now before the tribulation and people living during the tribulation will apply it as well...the angel was not preaching another gospel...