Knowledge and Belief

[Yes, and]

From the now-closed thread, “Eternal Salvation – From the Perspective of Life” I’m going to resume a topic I started to which @FreeGrace responded with a question or two. I said I would respond and also suggested starting a new thread because it was a theme unto itself, dealing with the concepts of knowledge and faith. So here it is.

I started by saying to @NConly:

“the reason I like your response is because of your first three words, ‘I do believe.’

“Look, I'm certain what I believe is not absolutely correct even as I can at the same time live in strong conviction about some things, but knowledge and faith are of two different orders (or so I believe—and even here, when discussing ‘knowledge’ I have found it helpful to understand (at least on a very elementary level) the limits of knowledge, the philosophers' approaches to knowledge, and the scriptural takes on it. There are different words and definitions for ‘knowledge,’ like there are different words and meanings for ‘love.’) And yet, it seems some here want to fight on the basis of what they consider unquestionable knowledge, and the desire to fight betrays an orientation which does not at the end of the day bear witness to the love of our Lord. They think they are doing the Lord's will (and maybe in some way they are), but so were the Ephesians at the time John wrote the Revelation. And look at what Jesus had to say about them. Yoiks! (Speaking of needing to repent!)”

@FreeGrace responded with:

“I am certain that you say you ‘believe the Bible’, as all Christians should say.  But, does your statement above apply to ‘believing the Bible'?  iow, are you just not real certain what what[sic] you believe the Bible to say is correct??

“Just trying to understand your views.

“People generally believe what they think is true, or right, or correct.  If someone is not sure about what the Bible says, then they can't ‘believe the Bible’.

“I think everyone WANTS to be right, correct.  I sure do.  So when someone posts something that I haven't found in the Bible, and ask them where that is taught/said in the Bible, I am asking for correction.  However, most times, I get ignored, or told (judged) that I really don't want the truth or am able to grasp the truth.

I find it odd when people insult someone who is asking for evidence with which to believe something.   Maybe that's just a clue that they really don't have the truth, and they really do know that, but just won't admit it.  They are too tied up in their ‘own truth’.  

So I gladly point out that the truth ALWAYS has an answer.”

~~~~~~~~~~

To begin, I mentioned it being “helpful to understand (at least on a very elementary level) the limits of knowledge, the philosophers' approaches to knowledge, and the scriptural takes on it.” Emphasize “elementary,” because that is as far as I got in my philosophical education, a graduate level introductory course on epistemology. Nevertheless I think that education was sufficient to help me begin to understand some basic approaches to the Word which are rooted in essentially classical Greek (or worldly) philosophical mindsets and which run contrary to the way God calls us to respond to him.

Two of the most prevalent approaches to the Word find us treating the Bible from a “Positivist” or “Logical Positivist’s” approach (these are related but also have their differences) or from what has been called a “Christian Stoic” approach. The former is ”characterized by the view that scientific knowledge is the only kind of factual knowledge and that all traditional metaphysical doctrines are to be rejected as meaningless.” This may seem ironic in that we are dealing with the God whom we cannot see, and yet we treat his Word as a series of “positive” statements each with a specific value as fact. Because of this orientation we “wrangle about words, which lead to the destruction of the hearers.”

On this score I wouldn’t say what I “believe the Bible to say is correct,” not because what the Bible reveals to us about God isn’t true, but because it is given to us to lead us to God through the revelation of his Son, who is by his very nature the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. We are not called to bring forth logical arguments out of the scriptures; rather, we are called to respond to the Holy Spirit speaking to us through the Word.

The other approach of “Christian Stoicism” in a nutshell has us treating the Bible as an owner’s manual, wherein we are looking for fixes to what is broken. If we can just work out all the Do’s and Don’ts, and follow them faithfully, then we will be in concert with the seminal logos (from Wikipedia):

"Stoic philosophy began with Zeno of Citium c. 300 BC, in which the logos was the active reason pervading and animating the Universe. It was conceived as material and is usually identified with God or Nature. The Stoics also referred to the seminal logos ("logos spermatikos"), or the law of generation in the Universe, which was the principle of the active reason working in inanimate matter. Humans, too, each possess a portion of the divine logos.^[28]

The Stoics took all activity to imply a logos or spiritual principle. As the operative principle of the world, the logos was anima mundi to them, a concept which later influenced Philo of Alexandria, although he derived the contents of the term from Plato.^[29] In his Introduction to the 1964 edition of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, the Anglican priest Maxwell Staniforth wrote that "Logos ... had long been one of the leading terms of Stoicism, chosen originally for the purpose of explaining how deity came into relation with the universe".^[30]

I see both of these approaches often intertwined when someone is making a biblical case for this or that position, and neither of these are ultimately centered on Faith, which as I said, and I believe the Word over and over calls us to, is of a completely different order. I believe Paul clearly speaks to this in writing to the Corinthians:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach^b to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,^c not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being^d might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him^e you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

This is why you will most often find me “going meta” on this forum, because the arguments here so often are rooted in a positivist and/or stoic mindset, and often lead one’s eyes away from our Lord. It is only by virtue of the fact that the Word is quoted here (no matter the motivation or misuse) that some readers may in fact be drawn to Jesus, because, as He tells us, his word does not return to him void.

[Who me]

12 hours ago, Yes, and said:

knowledge and faith are of two different orders

Depends what we mean.

I have knowledge that Jesus lived, was crucified,  burried and that the tomb was found to be empty.

This is all historical facts.

I also have faith, I believe  in a Jesus who was born, lived, was cruelly  exceuted, and that he rose from the dead.

Two beliefs  based on the same set of historical facts, yet only the later makes me a Christian.

[Yes, and]

Exactly! It depends what we mean.

What do you mean by saying you have knowledge that Jesus lived, was crucified, etc? Did you directly witness these things? While you could tell me that you happen to have a time machine, went back 2000 years, witnessed this, and then came back, I would be inclined to ask for some kind of evidence. Playing the role of Thomas here, I'd have to either believe your report or have my own direct encounter with Jesus.

While I only saw the movie version of Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ, I am fairly certain (certainty and certitude have different meanings!) he would say that the preponderance of the evidence should lead one to believe the accuracy of the witness statements. Even then, the transition to true saving faith can not be based on the evidence alone. And evidence is not the same as fact! You can call things historical facts but this does not make them so.

I believe John included the scene with Thomas (Jn 20:24-29) to impress upon those who hear his gospel what he concludes that scene with in vv. 30-31: "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." He is moving the listener/reader toward faith, based on his testimony of the signs performed. Paul does the same thing in Ro 10 (and there he quotes Isaiah, who also does the same thing, suggesting what the writer to the Hebrews says in chapter 11, also doing the same thing).

While I do not know you, I might possibly expect you to read the above and think I am saying something scandalous, or that at the least I am disagreeing with you. I'm not, because at heart you and I seem to be saying the same thing, but you couch your belief (or faith) in what you call "facts." I would rather say my belief arises from calling and encounter (as I suggest above). God reveals himself to us through his Word, through the evidences presented by the disciples and apostles, through mysterious happenstances, through audible voices, through nature—in short through whatever means he determines. Facts, and especially historical ones, can be extremely tenuous.

We walk by faith, not by sight. This is where we need to dwell, and not get caught up in argumentative positions and postures. The Word speaks to this over and over again. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Look at 2 Pe 1 to see the difference in "knowledge." In vv. 2 and 3 the word is epignosis. In vv. 5 and 6 it is gnosis. In v. 8 it's back to epignosis. Epignosis is translated in my old NASB as "true knowledge" in vv. 3 and 8 indicating this is a knowledge which goes beyond the basic knowledge of facts. The gnosis of vv. 5 and 6 refers to a learning of the teachings which help one to greater moral excellence, but which also needs to be supported by self-control. And Paul says the same in his prayer in Ep 3, longing for us to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge (v. 19).

This knowledge only comes through Christ dwelling in our hearts through faith (Ep 3:17), it does not at all come from facts, or one's own interpretation ("knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.")

What I have written is meant to move a believer closer to Jesus through simple faith, to move away from "wrangling about words." I readily admit it could seem like I am doing this exact thing! It certainly is not my intention! I will repeat what I said in that now-closed thread: "I'm still waiting for anyone (anyone?) who has not contributed to [that] thread to tell us they have been edified and encouraged by it." Truly, if that's not happening, then it's just a bunch of hot air (or worse), and I will include my posts in that category. And, just like Job, I will place my hands over my mouth.

[garee]

22 hours ago, Yes, and said:

knowledge and faith are of two different orders

Remember we as a fallen dying  race that have no faith or power to raise from the dead, Faith to believe. .  the unseen. . . is living power, the living word. 

We see the face of God through the knowledge of God " faith"  the unseen things as knowledge revealed of God to the same "work of faith" or labor of His love. 

Faith is a work of God giving us his understanding . . not a  wordily understanding according the philosophies of men but a law of understanding .The law of faith  the creative law ."Let there be" and "he is our good teacher master as Lord" 

[Yes, and]

Yes, @garee. Exactly! And this (really, Him!) is what (Whom!) we should be celebrating, not getting into countless arguments based on so-called knowledge which do nothing but divide us, turning our eyes away from Him. The sad but true reality though, is I could see someone picking a fight over even your straightforward words. 

[garee]

40 minutes ago, Yes, and said:

Yes, @garee. Exactly! And this (really, Him!) is what (Whom!) we should be celebrating, not getting into countless arguments based on so-called knowledge which do nothing but divide us, turning our eyes away from Him. The sad but true reality though, is I could see someone picking a fight over even your straightforward words. 

There is always that possibility  when defining the true fast "sending out the gospel on our day of rest" share it with the poor . many did what is called striking wicked evil  fist  hoping it would get the attention of our father not seen  he rebuked them and instructed them on how they could hear God not seen. as being heard on high   

Beautiful parable . . .Isaiah 58 King James Version Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.