Understanding Isaiah 66:7-8, the 144,000, the rest of the Jews, the man-child

[douggg]

Isaiah 66:7-8 is telling when the Jews turn to Jesus.   In a two step process.   First the 144, 000. Then the rest of the Jews.

Isaiah 66:7

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth [the 144,000] ;

 

before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. [Jesus]

 

The man child in that verse is Jesus.    The same man child as in Isaiah 9:6.

Before she travailed in bringing forth her children, before her pain came - which is the pain of going through the great tribulation, 2000 years later, in the end times....

...Jesus, the deliverer, was born to Israel, which took place historically, 2000 years ago.    The historic verses of Revelation 12:1-5, Jesus is the man child in those verses as well..    The remainder of Revelation 12:6-17 is end times, when Satan will be cast down to earth in the early parts of the great tribulation.

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Next verse, Isaiah 66:8, is about the end times,  When the Jews come out of the nations and Israel becomes a nation in the land again, born as such, in one day on May 14, 1948.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children (the rest of the Jews)

The 144,000 in verse 7.   The rest of the Jews in verse 8

The 144,000, sealed in Revelation 7:3-4  are the firstfuits, Revelation 14:4,  the special group of Jews saved before the judgements of God begin - i.e. before the trumpet judgments and the bowls of God's wrath judgments get going in full swing once the great tribulation begins.

The 144,000 Jews are in Isaiah 66:7 "before Zion travailed".

The rest of the Jews are in Isaiah 66:8 "as soon as Zion travailed".

So all Israel will be saved, as it says in Romans 11.

What it boils down to is that the rest of the Jews will turn to Jesus, the deliverer, and the gospel of salvation in the early beginnings, i.e. as soon as Zion travailed,  of the great tribulation - which will begin when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount.

Those are the ones in Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by douggg

[AdHoc]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:57 PM, douggg said:

Isaiah 66:7-8 is telling when the Jews turn to Jesus.   In a two step process.   First the 144, 000. Then the rest of the Jews.

Isaiah 66:7

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth [the 144,000] ;

 

before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. [Jesus]

 

The man child in that verse is Jesus.    The same man child as in Isaiah 9:6.

Before she travailed in bringing forth her children, before her pain came - which is the pain of going through the great tribulation, 2000 years later, in the end times....

...Jesus, the deliverer, was born to Israel, which took place historically, 2000 years ago.    The historic verses of Revelation 12:1-5, Jesus is the man child in those verses as well..    The remainder of Revelation 12:6-17 is end times, when Satan will be cast down to earth in the early parts of the great tribulation.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Next verse, Isaiah 66:8, is about the end times,  When the Jews come out of the nations and Israel becomes a nation in the land again, born as such, in one day on May 14, 1948.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children (the rest of the Jews)

The 144,000 in verse 7.   The rest of the Jews in verse 8

The 144,000, sealed in Revelation 7:3-4  are the firstfuits, Revelation 14:4,  the special group of Jews saved before the judgements of God begin - i.e. before the trumpet judgments and the bowls of God's wrath judgments get going in full swing once the great tribulation begins.

The 144,000 Jews are in Isaiah 66:7 "before Zion travailed".

The rest of the Jews are in Isaiah 66:8 "as soon as Zion travailed".

So all Israel will be saved, as it says in Romans 11.

What it boils down to is that the rest of the Jews will turn to Jesus, the deliverer, and the gospel of salvation in the early beginnings, i.e. as soon as Zion travailed,  of the great tribulation - which will begin when the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount.

Those are the ones in Revelation 12:10.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

 I am aware that many hold the doctrine that Israel will come to to the Lord. The reason for this is that the prophets predict at length the recovery of Israel, and Romans 11 seems to echo these prophesies. But the difficulties with this understanding are considerable. The first cause of this doctrine is that the word "saved" in Romans 11:26 is ASSUMED to mean the same as a Christian who believes. But, if I said that only women can be "saved" and that only by "childbearing", there would be a loud protest that the word "saved" there in 1st Timothy 2:15 means something else. So also in 1st Peter 3:20. Eight were "saved" BY WATER - not FROM water. In actual fact, the word "save" or "saved" is used 222 times in the Old Testament and not one of its mentions alludes to the salvation by faith in Jesus.

The word "saved" in Romans 11:26 is coupled to, not to rebirth, the indwelling Holy Spirit, partaking of the divine life and transformation by the Holy Spirit. It s coupled to being grafted into an Olive Tree. And here, another fatal mistake is made by many. They ASSUME that Israel is the Olive Tree. But scripture is plain and simple. Israel is the BRANCHES that were cut out. But this is not all. The Olive Tree does not signify the Church. According to scripture, a TREE IN PARABLE is a king and his Kingdom! (Judges 9:7-15, Daniel 4:20-22, Ezekiel 31:1-11). And if Israel was destined to be born again etc, then they were grafted in, then cut out and then grafted in again, which would mean that man and a nation could be saved multiple times.

To further establish this idea, there is no reason to call the Root or STEM of the olive Tree Israel. To do this would cause absurdities. Israel were NEVER HOLY. They worshiped idols in Egypt, in the wilderness and continued in the Good L. The broke the Law of Moses and provoked God until He named them Lo-ammi (you are NOT my People). they did as the Nations did and finally lost their unity and then their Land. The Root SUPPLIES the branches. Israel never supplied the Kingdom. They rejected it, AND the King.

The further error ofIsrael being saved like the Church is that in Romans 11:25 the whole Nation is "concluded BY GOD to be in UNBELIEF UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES be come in." The meaning of "fullness", especially in the New Testament, means that a capacity is reached. The two prevailing beliefs by scholars is that it either means (1) the number of Gentiles that the Lord takes for the Church is full, or (2) the number of years that the Gentiles have ruled the earth is full. Whatever meaning you give to "fullness", the fact is that Israel - all of them - remain blinded until either (1) the Lord takes no more believers, or (2) the battle of Armageddon when our Lord takes the earth by war (Rev.11:15).

This fact in point (2) is the death knell for any aspirations of rebirth among Israelites. For rebirth one needs FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 defines "faith" as the evidence of "THINGS NOT SEEN"! Now, in Luke 13:35, and other scriptures, the first time Israel acknowledge Jesus is when they SEE Him. From the second that Jesus is SEEN; the FAITH needed for salvation is not available any more. Sure, they will believe, but it is the same "faith" as the demons have (Jas.2.19) - one of SIGHT!

The sum of these difficulties indicate that Zachariah in Luke Chapter 1 was correct. Israel's salvation is a NATIONAL SALVATION to the terms of the COVENANT. Deuteronomy 30:1-5 lays down the conditions for Israel's recovery. It is when they turn back to what Moses was teaching ON THAT DAY. On that day Moses was expounding the LAW. There is no verse that says Israel will be saved like a Christian is. the prophets of old, up to and including Paul, predict a NATIONAL RESTORATION. In the Olive Tree a KINGDOM is shown, not the Church. In Christ's Millennial Kingdom Israel's fame will be that they are the leading Nation WITH WHOM GOD DWELLS. Israel forfeit the Kingdom when it comes to ruling (Matt.21:43). But as HOST NATION for Emmanuel, and because the Nations are ruled by THEIR KING (Jesus), and because the Nations must flow into Jerusalem annually (Zech 14:16), they are part of the Kingdom. 

I propose that ALL Israel will be "SAVED". But I judge that the word "saved" is NATIONAL RESTORATION to their Land , to safety and blessing as Zachariah predicted. This restoration will occur after the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16). 

[douggg]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The word "saved" in Romans 11:26 is coupled to, not to rebirth, the indwelling Holy Spirit, partaking of the divine life and transformation by the Holy Spirit. It s coupled to being grafted into an Olive Tree.

Well, the wild olive tree is not cultivated.    The olive tree which gentiles, by way of Christ, are grafted into is a cultivated olive tree, which God has attended to in His growth of Israel, to inherit the Kingdom of God.    Some of those original branches have been cutoff due to their rejection of Jesus.

The tree is not the goal.   The tree grows into the Kingdom of God.   The Kingdom of God is the goal.

To enter the Kingdom of God, a person must be saved, their soul redeemed and later their body redeemed.      All Israel being saved is referring to the generation, the nation of Israel, that will receive Jesus and the gospel of Salvation - so that they too will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is about that generation, when Israel becomes a nation again in the land, in one day, May 14, 1948.   And the two stage salvation of the Jews, to take place.   First the 144,000.   Then the rest of the Jews.  So that all Israel will be saved.

Edited July 31, 2023 by douggg

[Revelation Man]

On 7/29/2023 at 12:57 PM, douggg said:

Isaiah 66:7-8 is telling when the Jews turn to Jesus.   In a two step process.   First the 144, 000. Then the rest of the Jews.

Isaiah 66:7

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth [the 144,000] ;

 

before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. [Jesus]

 

The man child in that verse is Jesus.    The same man child as in Isaiah 9:6.

Before she travailed in bringing forth her children, before her pain came - which is the pain of going through the great tribulation, 2000 years later, in the end times....

...Jesus, the deliverer, was born to Israel, which took place historically, 2000 years ago.    The historic verses of Revelation 12:1-5, Jesus is the man child in those verses as well..    The remainder of Revelation 12:6-17 is end times, when Satan will be cast down to earth in the early parts of the great tribulation.

Those who understand the bible sees God's handywork, He wants all men to come to know Him, that is why He created us, fellowship. So, Satan deceived Adam and Eve and gained the Dominion rights unto this earth, God them had to devise a plan to redeem us, except God foreknows all things and understood we needed a Redeemer before the World was ever created. This is where the Predestination people get off tracked, thewy do not understand Paul is saying God predestined a Savior for us all. 

God then called Abraham, promised him a seed forever in His kingdom, set forth to birth the Redeemer, did so at the perfect time (Pax Romanus) in order to spread the Gospel unto the ends of the earth vis the Called out Gentiles (Christians). So, Israel birthed the Redeemer (she travails), then God who waited with patience whilst Israel should have been punished long before for her unbelief, Israel turned from faith to trusting in the laws of Moses. Thus Jesus sent his disciples out to preach redemption via faith alone, not works lest any man should boast. Then after the Pre Trib Rapture (time of the Gentiles) has come Israel will go through her 70th week of Judgment, one thing kicks this off, Israel will join the E.U. The do not enter and Agreement with a Gentile king as their Messiah, they simply join the E.U. and this kicks God anger into gear, it jumpstarts the 70th week, Israel is God's land, not their land. They do this after the Gog & Magog war, they give up their Nukes.

When does Israel repent? The 1335 (Two-witnesses), which is 45 days before the 1290 (False Prophet) and 75 days before the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering at the 1260 to become The Beast. We know Israel repents just before the 1260 middle of the week (DOTL) because Zech. 13:8-9 shows this and then the DOTL arrives in the next verse we see (Zech. 14:1-2 ) where Jerusalem gets conquered then in vs. 3 (1260 days after vs. 2 just like Matt. 24:30 is 1260 days after Matt. 24:29) Jesus returns to conquer the Beast. 

Never fall for the ole "Church replaces Israel stuff".

 

 

[AdHoc]

On 7/31/2023 at 1:49 AM, douggg said:

Well, the wild olive tree is not cultivated.    The olive tree which gentiles, by way of Christ, are grafted into is a cultivated olive tree, which God has attended to in His growth of Israel, to inherit the Kingdom of God.    Some of those original branches have been cutoff due to their rejection of Jesus.

The tree is not the goal.   The tree grows into the Kingdom of God.   The Kingdom of God is the goal.

To enter the Kingdom of God, a person must be saved, their soul redeemed and later their body redeemed.      All Israel being saved is referring to the generation, the nation of Israel, that will receive Jesus and the gospel of Salvation - so that they too will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is about that generation, when Israel becomes a nation again in the land, in one day, May 14, 1948.   And the two stage salvation of the Jews, to take place.   First the 144,000.   Then the rest of the Jews.  So that all Israel will be saved.

 Here are the difficulties with what you understand.

1. Scriptures says "ALL Israel will be saved". Starting with Jacob's sons, the 12 fathers of Israel, all have rejected the prophets. They died in UNBELIEF. Even if every Israelite who is left alive at the time you give for their conversion, the vast bulk of Israelites died in UNBELIEF. So "ALL Israel" is either not possible or the Holy Spirit made a mistake.

2. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says;

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The New Man, taken OUT OF THE TWO (the Nations and the Nation of Israel - Eph.2:15) has NO Israelites. The convert (i) is a New Creature, (ii) his past is non-existent (his ethnicity included Gal.3:28, Col.3:11) and (iii) he is IN Christ and not in Jacob. He might have an Israeli passport but what counts for God is his BIRTH - born of Jacob's FLESH or the Holy Spirit

3. Acts 15:14-16 says that Christ will first finish taking individuals out of the Nations, and then only restore the House of DAVID. David was not a king of the Gentiles. The Davidic Covenant is made with the king of Israel

4. There is no scripture that says that Israel will believe, except when they SEE Him (Jesus). On the contrary, Romans 11:24-31 says (i) that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles, and (ii) God has concluded them "ALL" in UNBELIEF.

5. The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 are sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation does not hurt them (Rev.9:4). Nothing is said of faith. No doubt they are the "Remnant" of Romans 9 and 11, but nothing is said of FAITH.

6. It is true that Israel will be grafted into the Olive Tree again. And it is also true that this Tree depicts the Kingdom. But a Kingdom is made up of at least THREE PEOPLES. (i) The King and His royal family - the RULERS, (ii) the SERVANTS - those who serve the royal House and/or the administration, and (iii) the SUBJECTS (not citizens because it is a monarchy and not a republic). Because Israel rejected the King and His Kingdom when He came at first, and because they cannot be forgiven in this age or the next for insulting the Holy Spirit, Israel cannot belong to the RULING CLASS (Matt.21:43, Lk.19:14).

7. Even in New Jerusalem Israel does not partake of the Church. the Church, based upon the twelve Apostles and PRECIOUS STONES, is the WALL of the city. Israel, based still on the 12 TRIBES, is depicted by PEARLS. Thus, even into eternity future, the Church and Israel remain DIFFERENT ENTITIES. 

[Keras]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

It is true that Israel will be grafted into the Olive Tree again.

But that Israel cannot be those who merely claim to be Israel.

It will be the Israelites of God, His faithful Christian people, from every tribe, race, nation and language. As Isaiah 66:18b-21 says. 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 Here are the difficulties with what you understand.

1. Scriptures says "ALL Israel will be saved". Starting with Jacob's sons, the 12 fathers of Israel, all have rejected the prophets. They died in UNBELIEF. Even if every Israelite who is left alive at the time you give for their conversion, the vast bulk of Israelites died in UNBELIEF. So "ALL Israel" is either not possible or the Holy Spirit made a mistake.

2. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says;

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The New Man, taken OUT OF THE TWO (the Nations and the Nation of Israel - Eph.2:15) has NO Israelites. The convert (i) is a New Creature, (ii) his past is non-existent (his ethnicity included Gal.3:28, Col.3:11) and (iii) he is IN Christ and not in Jacob. He might have an Israeli passport but what counts for God is his BIRTH - born of Jacob's FLESH or the Holy Spirit

3. Acts 15:14-16 says that Christ will first finish taking individuals out of the Nations, and then only restore the House of DAVID. David was not a king of the Gentiles. The Davidic Covenant is made with the king of Israel

4. There is no scripture that says that Israel will believe, except when they SEE Him (Jesus). On the contrary, Romans 11:24-31 says (i) that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles, and (ii) God has concluded them "ALL" in UNBELIEF.

5. The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 are sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation does not hurt them (Rev.9:4). Nothing is said of faith. No doubt they are the "Remnant" of Romans 9 and 11, but nothing is said of FAITH.

6. It is true that Israel will be grafted into the Olive Tree again. And it is also true that this Tree depicts the Kingdom. But a Kingdom is made up of at least THREE PEOPLES. (i) The King and His royal family - the RULERS, (ii) the SERVANTS - those who serve the royal House and/or the administration, and (iii) the SUBJECTS (not citizens because it is a monarchy and not a republic). Because Israel rejected the King and His Kingdom when He came at first, and because they cannot be forgiven in this age or the next for insulting the Holy Spirit, Israel cannot belong to the RULING CLASS (Matt.21:43, Lk.19:14).

7. Even in New Jerusalem Israel does not partake of the Church. the Church, based upon the twelve Apostles and PRECIOUS STONES, is the WALL of the city. Israel, based still on the 12 TRIBES, is depicted by PEARLS. Thus, even into eternity future, the Church and Israel remain DIFFERENT ENTITIES. 

 

Israel insulted the holy spirit?

Wasn't Jesus born an Israelite as well as Mathew,John ,Peter and Paul?

 

You sure are condemning a lot of people with that accusation.

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 7/30/2023 at 7:49 PM, douggg said:

Well, the wild olive tree is not cultivated.    The olive tree which gentiles, by way of Christ, are grafted into is a cultivated olive tree, which God has attended to in His growth of Israel, to inherit the Kingdom of God.    Some of those original branches have been cutoff due to their rejection of Jesus.

The tree is not the goal.   The tree grows into the Kingdom of God.   The Kingdom of God is the goal.

To enter the Kingdom of God, a person must be saved, their soul redeemed and later their body redeemed.      All Israel being saved is referring to the generation, the nation of Israel, that will receive Jesus and the gospel of Salvation - so that they too will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is about that generation, when Israel becomes a nation again in the land, in one day, May 14, 1948.   And the two stage salvation of the Jews, to take place.   First the 144,000.   Then the rest of the Jews.  So that all Israel will be saved.

The Jews voted on what to call their new government .Would you still adore it if it had called itself Judah or some other name besides Israel?

 

On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

But that Israel cannot be those who merely claim to be Israel.

It will be the Israelites of God, His faithful Christian people, from every tribe, race, nation and language. As Isaiah 66:18b-21 says. 

I think that it is not a matter of claim. It is about being born as seed of Jacob. You are either of the lineage of Jacob or not. Paul defined Israelites in Romans 9: 

 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[AdHoc]

35 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

Israel insulted the holy spirit?

Wasn't Jesus born an Israelite as well as Mathew,John ,Peter and Paul?

 

You sure are condemning a lot of people with that accusation.

 

 

In the normal usage of English the reader would know that the Nation of Israel living at that time is meant. It was the theme and the context. But, if you had to insist then what do you think of Peter doing the same - and that, under inspiration?

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: ... 23 Him, ..., ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Act.2:14–23)

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, ... ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life ... .

I understand that you emotionally identify with Israelites, and I'm sad that they did what they did. But the truth is the truth. Israel are accused at least five times in the New Testament of the murder of Jesus, and the Passover Lamb of Egypt was killed by Israel.