If There Is A Rapture...

[AdHoc]

36 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

And?

And so Galatians 3:27-29 is about the New Man and does not entertain the attributes of the other "TWAIN".

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

The second advent of Jesus Christ at the 7th trump is what Christians patiently wait for.  There is no pretrib rapture.  Where in the Bible does it say the Church will be gone before our Savior returns?  

The major difficulty facing the student of eschatology is not the scriptures themselves. It is "Leaven". In Matthew 13 the Lord predicted, in 7 parables, the course of the Kingdom in this age. God would sow, and His enemy would sow.  God would bring forth fruitful and the enemy would sow "tares" - a counterfeit Christianity. God would have His Word as the bread of life and the enemy would corrupt it with leaven. God would plant a small tree that produces a small but piquant fruit, but the enemy would turn it into Nebuchadnezzar's Tree.

For over 1,000 years the "Holy Roman Empire" headed by the Pontifex Maximus, would lock away the Bible, forbid the layman to read and study it, and develop doctrine based on Church Tradition and not the pure word of God. If there is one organization that DOESN'T want Christ to return, it is the Roman Church. It flourishes today as the single most powerful political entity in the world, and as the single most wealthy entity in the world. One of its chief doctrines is that God has replaced Israel with the Church. The end result of this doctrine is that all the promises aimed at Israel, BECOME THE CHURCH'S. And if Jesus, rightful king of the Jews, does not return to restore Israel as Zachariah predicted in Luke Chapter 1, then multiple other doctrines must be abandoned.

The most comprehensive prophecies of the events on earth at and around the "COMING" of Jesus Christ is Matthew 24 and 25. These two chapters have three natural divisions. (1) From Matthew 24:1 to 31 you will notice that everything is Jewish: The Passover, the Temple, Jerusalem, Judea, the Law, the Sabbath, Daniel, the Abomination of Desolation and the synagogues are all Jewish things. Even the preaching to the Nations has essentially to do with reaching the lost Tribes because this is the target group for the 12 Apostles (See Galatians 2). Matthew 24:31 ends with Christ using angels to gather His elect.

Now, with all things in the context being Jewish, and Jesus bursting through the clouds above Jerusalem and "those who pierced him mourning", the gathering of an elect from the "four winds" MUST BE ISRAEL BUT ... if you teach for a thousand years that Israel will not be restored, and is annihilated, then you are left in a very doubtful position as to Matthew 24:31! Jesus' "elect" are gathered by angels AFTER He descends from the clouds in Matthew 24:31. But in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 the elect of Jesus are gathered by  angels TO THE CLOUDS WITH JESUS STILL IN THEM!!!

How then can we settle this apparent contradiction? Easy! According to Ephesians 4 Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father, in HIS throne, "above the highest heavens". But in Revelation 4 we find our Lord Jesus in heaven (not above it) IN HIS OWN THRONE. WE could correctly say that Jesus is COME (from aboe the highest heaven to heaven). But of course, He has not COME to earth. Next, in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 the Lord DESCENDS with a SHOUT. Where to??? THE CLOUDS!!! Again we could correctly say that the Lord is COME Not to the heavenly place of Revelation Chapter 4 but to the CLOUDS.

After judging all the raptured Christians in the clouds, our Lord again DESCENDS from the clouds to Mount Olives LIKE LIGHTNING! Now He is on Mount Olives and we could correctly say that He has COME¨His journey is over. He CAME to the heavens to be crowned, the He CAME to the clouds to receive and judge the Church, and then He CAME to the earth to avenge Himself among the nations at Armageddon.

So when we talk about His COMING we must be very precise which one we are talkng about. His COMING is divided into sectors. At each He triumphs

 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The major difficulty facing the student of eschatology is not the scriptures themselves. It is "Leaven". In Matthew 13 the Lord predicted, in 7 parables, the course of the Kingdom in this age. God would sow, and His enemy would sow.  God would bring forth fruitful and the enemy would sow "tares" - a counterfeit Christianity. God would have His Word as the bread of life and the enemy would corrupt it with leaven. God would plant a small tree that produces a small but piquant fruit, but the enemy would turn it into Nebuchadnezzar's Tree.

For over 1,000 years the "Holy Roman Empire" headed by the Pontifex Maximus, would lock away the Bible, forbid the layman to read and study it, and develop doctrine based on Church Tradition and not the pure word of God. If there is one organization that DOESN'T want Christ to return, it is the Roman Church. It flourishes today as the single most powerful political entity in the world, and as the single most wealthy entity in the world. One of its chief doctrines is that God has replaced Israel with the Church. The end result of this doctrine is that all the promises aimed at Israel, BECOME THE CHURCH'S. And if Jesus, rightful king of the Jews, does not return to restore Israel as Zachariah predicted in Luke Chapter 1, then multiple other doctrines must be abandoned.

The most comprehensive prophecies of the events on earth at and around the "COMING" of Jesus Christ is Matthew 24 and 25. These two chapters have three natural divisions. (1) From Matthew 24:1 to 31 you will notice that everything is Jewish: The Passover, the Temple, Jerusalem, Judea, the Law, the Sabbath, Daniel, the Abomination of Desolation and the synagogues are all Jewish things. Even the preaching to the Nations has essentially to do with reaching the lost Tribes because this is the target group for the 12 Apostles (See Galatians 2). Matthew 24:31 ends with Christ using angels to gather His elect.

Now, with all things in the context being Jewish, and Jesus bursting through the clouds above Jerusalem and "those who pierced him mourning", the gathering of an elect from the "four winds" MUST BE ISRAEL BUT ... if you teach for a thousand years that Israel will not be restored, and is annihilated, then you are left in a very doubtful position as to Matthew 24:31! Jesus' "elect" are gathered by angels AFTER He descends from the clouds in Matthew 24:31. But in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 the elect of Jesus are gathered by  angels TO THE CLOUDS WITH JESUS STILL IN THEM!!!

How then can we settle this apparent contradiction? Easy! According to Ephesians 4 Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father, in HIS throne, "above the highest heavens". But in Revelation 4 we find our Lord Jesus in heaven (not above it) IN HIS OWN THRONE. WE could correctly say that Jesus is COME (from aboe the highest heaven to heaven). But of course, He has not COME to earth. Next, in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 the Lord DESCENDS with a SHOUT. Where to??? THE CLOUDS!!! Again we could correctly say that the Lord is COME Not to the heavenly place of Revelation Chapter 4 but to the CLOUDS.

After judging all the raptured Christians in the clouds, our Lord again DESCENDS from the clouds to Mount Olives LIKE LIGHTNING! Now He is on Mount Olives and we could correctly say that He has COME¨His journey is over. He CAME to the heavens to be crowned, the He CAME to the clouds to receive and judge the Church, and then He CAME to the earth to avenge Himself among the nations at Armageddon.

So when we talk about His COMING we must be very precise which one we are talkng about. His COMING is divided into sectors. At each He triumphs

 

The Word of God records only two comings (advents) of our Lord.  In His first advent, Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on a lowly donkey as the Lamb to be slain, and for the purpose of paying the price for our sins and defeating death (Hebrews 2:14).

However, when He returns at the second advent, Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will be riding on a white stallion.  And this time, He is coming explicitly to “judge” and to “make war”.

Rev. 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 

(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

The Word of God records only two comings (advents) of our Lord.  In His first advent, Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on a lowly donkey as the Lamb to be slain, and for the purpose of paying the price for our sins and defeating death (Hebrews 2:14).

However, when He returns at the second advent, Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will be riding on a white stallion.  And this time, He is coming explicitly to “judge” and to “make war”.

Rev. 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 

(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself.

Thank you for your reply.

Go well.

[Montana Marv]

Yet the Harpozo will occur between the advents. We meet Him in the clouds. He brings us to His Father's house.  Five wise virgins are taken, five foolish remain. They are all hanging out together waiting. The Bridegroom snatches away his Bride. The King of Kings and Lord of Lord's comes later.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[WilliamL]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:13 AM, AdHoc said:

Jesus' "elect" are gathered by angels AFTER He descends from the clouds in Matthew 24:31. But in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 the elect of Jesus are gathered by  angels TO THE CLOUDS WITH JESUS STILL IN THEM!!!

Matt. 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on/epi the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see anything here saying that Jesus "descends from the clouds." That seems to be you just adding your view to the text.

Jesus here is "coming on/epi the clouds of heaven," which fits perfectly with the events of 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15.

Edited March 13, 2023 by WilliamL
type

[AdHoc]

14 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Matt. 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on/epi the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see anything here saying that Jesus "descends from the clouds." That seems to be you just adding your view to the text.

Jesus here is "coming on/epi the clouds of heaven," which fits perfectly with the events of 1 Thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15.

I'm afraid not. You did not address my argument. In Matthew 24 the Lord ...
... COMES (erchomai) (nobody meets Him)
... ON the clouds, and
... THEY WILL SEE - (who will SEE?)
... THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH, and
... He comes AS HE WENT IN ACTS 1:9-10. He is seen rising until a cloud block the view. This is reversed.
... He touches down on Mount Olives (Zech 14:4)
... He gathers His elect from the "four winds". Only Israel was dispersed to the four winds (Jer.49:36) and will be gathered from there (Ezek.37:9). Israel's rapture is horizontal, the Church's rapture is vertical.

This is NOT what happens in 1st Thessalonians 4, and 1st Corinthians 15 does not describe Christ's coming at all.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

... He touches down on Mount Olives (Zech 14:4)

Mt. 24 doesn't even hint this.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

This is NOT what happens in 1st Thessalonians 4, and 1st Corinthians 15 does not describe Christ's coming at all.

Matt. 24:3, 27, 1 Cor. 15:23, and 1 Thes. 4:15 all use the word Parousia (of the Lord) to show that these three passages all refer to the same time and event.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Mt. 24 doesn't even hint this.

Matt. 24:3, 27, 1 Cor. 15:23, and 1 Thes. 4:15 all use the word Parousia (of the Lord) to show that these three passages all refer to the same time and event.

I think its more profitable if I just give my summary and let the reader judge.

° Up to now, our Lord is ensconced in the Father's Throne "far above all heavens" (Eph.4:10)
° At the time appointed by the Father, Jesus receives His own throne and crown (Rev. Chapter 4)
° From His heavenly position Jesus fulfills Romans Chapter 1 concerning the wrath of God by opening the six seals
° Jesus leaves heaven and pauses in the clouds. From this hidden position He gathers the Overcomers of the Church like a thief (Matt.24:39-51)
° Because He is traveling our Lord sits upon a Bema - not a "Thronos". From the Bema He judges the Church. Below, on earth, the Great Tribulation rages
° "After the Tribulation of those days" our Lord Jesus, returns to earth for the purpose of changing the world's government.
His "Revealing" takes place over Jerusalem (or Mount Olives for more accuracy) in this way:-

A sign is first shown in the heavens. Then, like lightning, much hotter and brighter than the sun, Jesus is seen, first on a cloud, and then freely descending to the Mount of Olives. With Him are the Overcomers of the Church, the angels, and God's glory. The inhabitants of Judea break out in mourning for the resurrected Lord carries the "Piercings" that they, Israel, called for. Jerusalem is relieved. Jesus enter through the East gate. With Jerusalem secure, Jesus proceeds the 70 miles to Megiddo and meets the Beast's army head on in a one-off slaughter that fill the Jezreel valley with human blood up to the level of the horse's bridle.

The combined military establishment of the world lies in ruins, so our Lord Jesus makes another journey to Bozrah of Edom and settles an age old issue with the man and nation who "despised their birthright". He is seen returning to Jerusalem soaked in blood up to His armpits (Isa.34:6, 63:1).

He gives a command and a Trumpet sounds. Ezekiel 37 is put in motion and every seed of Jacob who ever lived and died, in every nation under the sun, is resurrected. The living seed of Jacob, with the resurrected, are raptured to Canaan (Mat.24:31). Whereas the Church has its "last Trumpet", Israel's gathering is not the last gathering. They fall under the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33), which has the Law. And in the Law is the feast of trumpets, which Israel will feast annually for 1,000 years.

The COMING of our Lord Jesus is ONE JOURNEY with three transit stops;
- Above all heaven is the starting point
- Heaven is the first stop for His coronation
- The Clouds are the second stop to gather the Church (1st Thessalonians 4)
- When the Great Tribulation is over, Jesus leaves the clouds for Mount of Olives to seen by a heartbroken, but repentant Israel

Edited March 14, 2023 by AdHoc
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[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

From His heavenly position Jesus fulfills Romans Chapter 1 concerning the wrath of God by opening the six seals

Only after the initial cataclysms of the 6th seal take place = Matt. 24:29, and then Christ is revealed from heaven (= 24:30-31/Rev. 6:16), does "the great day of His wrath" commence. 6:17