If God created the souls of birthed babies, why they are under the bondage of sins ?

[kwikphilly]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Dear sister, sometimes I do not fully disagree or agree with you and this the best way to say because we are continuously growing up and that means when we look back we can see how we are in a different understanding with our past self and we must be...that's make us look forwards...as to how our understanding will be renew and continue to be renew..

Bless are those who look forwards to that while they sojourn in this Life and they do not leave everything in the after life

And in all these years,dear Brother,that has never hindered the Unity of our Faith or our Fellowship- nor should it ever! Praise Jesus!

In His Love,Kwik

 

[chesed]

2 hours ago, Roymond said:

The Orthodox would consider your statement redundant:  that we cannot accurately speak of divine things in human words is part of the mystery, specifically the mystery of grace -- human words can't convey the message perfectly, yet God uses imperfect words to call us by the Gospel.

I would have expected the reason we do not accurately speak of Divine things is due to the remaining sin nature, thus we are looking through a glass darkly. 1Cor13:12

God uses perfect words as His Word is perfect, no mystery is involved.

Are you E.O.?

 

[chesed]

4 hours ago, Roymond said:

Purgatory isn't "works righteousness", it's being saved "as through fire".  None of us has done only perfect works, so all of us have works that need to be "burned up".

That would be hard to say as it is not found in the 66 Books I go by.

4 hours ago, Roymond said:

Things like selling pieces of paper that assert someone you know who is in purgatory just got part of a sentence reduced was always an aberration; for that matter, regarding purgatory as a place was also, no matter how popularly it was believed -- it was always a process, just like sanctification is a process.  And if we consider Paul's words then ascribing the "as through fire" to periods of time is just a guess; it could just as well be a matter of intensity of the fire.

Yes, a guess at best.

re:purgatory-

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

4 hours ago, Roymond said:

t any rate, it is a bit strange, and it happened the same way most false teaching happens:  theologians fell in love with Aristotle once his works became available again in Christian Europe and it became a major fad to apply Aristotle's thought to everything (in large part because it showed how educated one was!), and that included theology.  So the whole New Testament was reinterpreted according to Aristotle's categories, specifically here "substance" and "accidents", so the thought was that everything that is real consists of a "substance".  But a substance can't be imputed, it can only be imparted, and since humans are dead in sin the only way to impart it was logically to infuse it rather like getting a shot from a doctor:  as a doctor injects medicine, so God "injects" grace.  Thus came the term "infused grace" that Martin Luther railed against, and a great misunderstanding occurred:  if your position is that grace is a substance that God spiritually injects into a person, then the statement that a person is saved by grace alone is heresy -- so since the Roman theologians thought that Luther was using the same definition of grace that they were they concluded he was a heretic.  Luther never disabused them of this notion, at least directly, while as a doctor of the scriptures he explained that grace is a change in God's attitude towards us.  Yet there are verses that make grace sound like some sort of power -- we can have more grace, it can be poured out, it can increase -- so the matter wasn't all that clear.

I never seen Christ's righteousness as imputed. I know Rome has a concept of 'infused grace'.

4 hours ago, Roymond said:

Anyway, back to Rome: 

no thanks.

Edited February 11, 2023 by chesed

[Your closest friendnt]

@Roymond  @chesed

ADAM gave to his children what he had....

ADAM was in death when his children were conceived...

This is why they inherited from him what he had...

They were in Adam they were in Adam's death...Adam pass unto his children what he had ...he cannot pass life unto them because he was not in the Life anymore but he was in death...

If his children were taken away from him at the time they were born they will still be in death....

Death pass on unto them from Adam...because the seed of Adam had the sting of Death.

This is what we are called to do to understand something about that something about Adam as he was in that state of Death...

God still gave them his fellowship and they could be in his presence....he talk with them and they talk with him in the same way Adam and Eve talk to God when they were in the Garden and the same must also be truth for Adam and Eve after they exit the Garden God continue to talk with them and they continue to be in his presence and they talk with him....

God continue to talk with Cain after the murder of Abel in the same fashion he talk to Adam and Eve after they ate from the fruit of the tree...

Edited February 11, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[chesed]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Death pass on unto them from Adam...because the seed of Adam had the sting of Death.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

i'm not sure of what else to say.

[chesed]

7 hours ago, Roymond said:

if your position is that grace is a substance that God spiritually injects into a person, then the statement that a person is saved by grace alone is heresy -

I’d rather say that grace is the manner in which God deals with undeserving hell-bent sinners, all on account of the merits of Christ.

How does that jingle go?…

🎶”He paid a debt He did not owe,

I owed a debt I could not pay,

 I needed someone to wash my sins away.🎶🎶

[Roymond]

7 hours ago, chesed said:

I would have expected the reason we do not accurately speak of Divine things is due to the remaining sin nature, thus we are looking through a glass darkly. 1Cor13:12

God uses perfect words as His Word is perfect, no mystery is involved.

Are you E.O.?

 

There are no human words that are perfect; language itself suffers from sin.

I'm sort of hovering between Antiochene Orthodox and Evangelical Catholic (old-style Lutheran).  I think I've found a way to reconcile faith alone with the Orthodox position based on the situations in which the doctrines were formulated, but I'm not confident it's an actual solution yet.

[Roymond]

7 hours ago, chesed said:

That would be hard to say as it is not found in the 66 Books I go by.

Yes, it is, it's what Paul taught.

7 hours ago, chesed said:

Yes, a guess at best.

re:purgatory-

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

That has nothing to do with purgatory.  Read what I wrote.

7 hours ago, chesed said:

I never seen Christ's righteousness as imputed. I know Rome has a concept of 'infused grace'.

 

I think it's more than just imputation as well, or Paul wouldn't talk about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, and other passages.  It clearly starts as imputed, but as happens to Christians from time to time the Spirit graciously cauterizes certain temptations and we do grow more like Christ; for some Christians it happens at their birthday-from-above, for some it happens at Baptism, I've even seen it happen at the Eucharist -- for reasons we don't fathom, the Spirit essentially says, "No more of this sin; I am cutting off this temptation".

To Roman Catholics, I've seen this used as an argument in favor of infused grace, the  idea being that the Spirit infuses grace into this one part of a life and sin is pushed out.  Since it does require added grace, looking at it that way works but isn't necessary; some have explained it as the restoration of the image of God in us, bit by bit.

[Roymond]

1 hour ago, chesed said:

I’d rather say that grace is the manner in which God deals with undeserving hell-bent sinners, all on account of the merits of Christ.

How does that jingle go?…

🎶”He paid a debt He did not owe,

I owed a debt I could not pay,

 I needed someone to wash my sins away.🎶🎶

That fits with Luther's definition of grace as a changed attitude God sees us from/with.  There's an old Sunday School meme, "God's Riches At Christ's Expense" for remembering what grace is, though if you think about it that phrase works for Roman Catholics (and Orthodox) as well, so it isn't terribly helpful theologically.

That 'jingle' is interesting in that it mixes two different models scripture uses to convey the idea of what happens in salvation.  Western Christianity has focused on the "debt" model heavily, but the "washed" model is abundant in scripture as well.

[chesed]

10 hours ago, Roymond said:

Yes, it is, it's what Paul taught.

That has nothing to do with purgatory.  Read what I wrote.

I think it's more than just imputation as well, or Paul wouldn't talk about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, and other passages.  It clearly starts as imputed, but as happens to Christians from time to time the Spirit graciously cauterizes certain temptations and we do grow more like Christ; for some Christians it happens at their birthday-from-above, for some it happens at Baptism, I've even seen it happen at the Eucharist -- for reasons we don't fathom, the Spirit essentially says, "No more of this sin; I am cutting off this temptation".

To Roman Catholics, I've seen this used as an argument in favor of infused grace, the  idea being that the Spirit infuses grace into this one part of a life and sin is pushed out.  Since it does require added grace, looking at it that way works but isn't necessary; some have explained it as the restoration of the image of God in us, bit by bit.

It has quite a bit to do with purgatory when it comes to the selling of indulgences.

Paul speaks in terms of ‘working out one’s salvation’ in light of the fact that it is ‘God who is working in us. I suppose one could say ‘we are infused by the Holy Spirit’ but then we are in the realm of sanctification.

 I believe in Jesus, we have all the grace we need.

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. — John 1:17

And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
— 2 Corinthians 12:9