If God created the souls of birthed babies, why they are under the bondage of sins ?

[Roymond]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:28 PM, coheir said:

I do not believe God creates sinful souls either But Isaiah 45:7 says

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

"Evil" there is what we would call "catastrophy", not willful evil that incurs guilt but natural events that bring harm.  Allowing new souls to take part in the "catastrophy" that is sin could be seen this way, I suppose.

Just as food for thought, an ancient commentator tied this verse back to Creation, with "peace" (shalom) meaning wholeness and "evil" indicating the "without form, and void".

Edited February 15, 2023 by Roymond

[Roymond]

On 2/11/2023 at 4:31 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

Face the facts and be strong in your mind and it is not necessary to teach God ...anything...he knew the difference between one word and the other...and he chooses to post evil because by that time the people knew the meaning...

You do not need to correct God and he did not asked you to do what the Pharisees were doing...creeping in substitute words in the OS to make them project their wants..

No need to teach God what is the proper word or that he used the wrong word. 

I am reminded of Peter who rebuke Jesus and he try to tell him what to say and what not to say about his own self...

 

This is all meaningless because God didn't choose any words in English, and in fact He may not have chosen them in Hebrew, either since He used human writers.

So there was no "correcting God" involved, only correcting a human translator.

[Roymond]

On 2/11/2023 at 6:34 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

We are in the new Covenant...God is not going to do evil to us..in the New Covenant. .

That was said to those in the Covenant of Sinai..it was one of the terms in their Covenant...evil for evil...

They were the words of God spoken by the prophet..

God's vocabulary was rich...and he new the word you suggest and did not used it...he used Evil for Evil...and he did to them Evil....

No, God used  רָ֑ע  -- "rah", said almost like you're saying "rot" but you don't quite make the "t" sound.

"Evil" is an English word chosen by fallible human translators two centuries ago.  Since then God has blessed us with better knowledge of ancient Hebrew, so we now know what type of evil is meant -- not evil that brings guilt, but natural disaster sort of evil that brings catastrophe, not a choice someone makes but an event that happens.

On 2/11/2023 at 6:34 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

The King confessed that evil that has come upon us is from our Lord...

This is the point...

She said the word "Evil" is not meant to mean "Evil", it's meant to mean something else...

Little by little, a bit by bit, a little hear and a little there they changed the words of God...this was said about the Pharisees and todays preachers from a distance and they do not stay around for discussion...and they demand blind royalty from the membership if not...the say the door is open...they Love Jesus and we Love Jesus also..so everyone can be found wanting...Paul said many times he was humble...the Lord took him away from everyone so he can help him to see his errors and Paul came back with a new song...with a renew mind...he said "less of me and more of Jesus...and Peter got a very good lesson and not everyone followed in his new steps....

 

 

[chesed]

1 hour ago, Roymond said:

Purgatory comes from Paul's statement about being saved as through fire.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

Quite a stretch, I wouldn’t do Bible exegesis that way.

[chesed]

42 minutes ago, Roymond said:

Predestination is almost certainly one thing Peter was indicating when he said that Paul says things hard to understand!

That would be your guess but if you look at the context of 2Pet3, Peter is mainly speaking of scoffers in the last days and last day events.

So in context Peter is speaking of Paul's eschatology, e.g. 1st & 2nd Thessalonians. Nonetheless, we see not a word about predestination or even election in that chapter.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Roymond said:

Purgatory comes from Paul's statement about being saved as through fire.

No it cannot be ...because the purgatory is for saved people...it does not mean that there is a purgatory as in the Catholic church teachings, but I brought it up because of the comparison with Paul's teachings. And Paul does not agreed with the Catholic church teaching of Purgatory and he never did...to the contrary he said that anyone who believes is Saves...because Jesus Christ is the one who saves anyone who believes in him...

Everyone has to ask his own self; do I believe in Jesus Christ who died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins...and if the answer is a cool yes...the this person has to say to him/her self that I am saved...faith is ahead of everyone when we are approaching the judgment Throne of Jesus Christ...

And the example of Paul it is like that..

It's like the works of this individual condemned him but his faith in Jesus Christ saved him...

Paul puts emphasis on the Grace of God upon the believer in Jesus Christ...

Emphasis that we are in the imputed righteousness of the one who was sacrificed for our sins...the one who forgives our sins..in his own blood...

In his righteousness we are clothed in his righteousness...

We have and will have his righteousness or we are and will be in his righteousness for all eternity...not only while we are still alive...but we need to be in his imputed righteousness also after we die....we are in him ....he can not be Judge...he is the Judge...it is not possible for him to do anything to loose his righteousness...there is no more tests ahead of him..

He is in charge of everything..

We rest in him ...in his righteousness...he is the king of kings...

Our own righteousness it is very important we should seek to grow in our own righteousness...

This is part of the Gospels...to grow out of our unrighteous works...and into righteous works...

Not to boast in them because our works follow us and our faith is ahead of us...

Jesus Christ knows us by our faith in him and by our works ....

By our works because we were obedient to him and by our works because that what we wanted to do...from our own self... we learn to do good...because we learn to love him...

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Roymond]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:39 PM, chesed said:

That would be your guess but if you look at the context of 2Pet3, Peter is mainly speaking of scoffers in the last days and last day events.

So in context Peter is speaking of Paul's eschatology, e.g. 1st & 2nd Thessalonians. Nonetheless, we see not a word about predestination or even election in that chapter.

I can't claim responsibility; the comment about predestination came from a graduate course in the non-Pauline epistles.

But sure, Paul's eschatology counts as inscrutable, however much some people like to make it part of a train schedule!

[Roymond]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:14 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

No it cannot be ...because the purgatory is for saved people...

Exactly, and that's where the catholic church got the idea of Purgatory -- from Paul.

[Roymond]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:28 PM, chesed said:

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

Quite a stretch, I wouldn’t do Bible exegesis that way.

"Purgatory" comes from "purgation" which means "being purged" -- which is what Paul describes here.

And even Rome admits that thinking of it as a place rather than a process/event, and that someone paying money will ease the suffering, is an aberration.  In fact as I recall, they maintain that only named Saints won't go through purging... and not even all of them.

[farouk]

29 minutes ago, Roymond said:

"Purgatory" comes from "purgation" which means "being purged" -- which is what Paul describes here.

And even Rome admits that thinking of it as a place rather than a process/event, and that someone paying money will ease the suffering, is an aberration.  In fact as I recall, they maintain that only named Saints won't go through purging... and not even all of them.

It's wonderful how Hebrews 1.3 says that the Lord Jesus 'by Himself purged our sins' and 'sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high' .......