New Jerusalem - size and shape

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

It's been requested that we start a topic on the New Jerusalem's size and shape.

I REALLY think that's a good idea, because IMO there is NOTHING quite so invigorating and exciting!

So much time is spent in prophecy on the book of Revelation leading up to the description of the New Jerusalem, but so little time is actually spent on that city! So much has been written about the "Tribulation" and the "Seventieth Week of Daniel," and very little is spent on the Millennium, the "chilia etee," the "one thousand years," and the one thousand years are MUCH longer than a mere 7 years! Longer still will be the Eternal State described as the New Heaven, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.

The size of the New Jerusalem, Greek: Ierousaleem Kaineen, Hebrew: Yerushalayim haChadashah, is a good place to start.

So, let's start with the description of the city: I'm going to add quotation marks (and perhaps an exclamation point or two), as well as use colors to distinguish the various parts: Green will be for narration, purple will be for quotations of YHWH God ("the LORD God"), red will be for quotations of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah ("Jesus the Christ"), and blue will be for anyone else.

Revelation 21:1-22:9 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain (hard labor): for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful!"

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me,

"These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 "'Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.'"

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me,

"See thou do it not!: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God!"

Many don't really know what to make of this description. Some just feel it is a colorful allegory or flowery, figurative speech, but I believe that there is SO MUCH DETAIL in this description that I can't see it as anything other than a LITERAL DESCRIPTION of a LITERAL, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL CITY!

First, I am primarily a mathematician, but I also enjoy the sciences, as well. One of those sciences I enjoy is astronomy, and I'm a great fan of men like Sir Isaac Newton! His laws of motion, and his study of gravity and the interaction of bodies of mass exerting equal attraction for each other has always fascinated me, and I find his formulas to be descriptions of the real events in space.

The size of this city is phenomenal! It is HUGE! I know that artists in the past have done the best they know how to do in drawing and painting what they believed the city to look like, but most fall far short of the reality!

To understand how big this city is, first we have to know what the units are. This city is said to "[lie] foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."

This is the measure of one dimension of the city: The length is 12,000 furlongs. Now, "furlongs" is a translation of the Greek word "stadioon," ("σταδίων"), which is the genitive, masculine, plural of ...

4712 stadion στάδιον, ου, τό (stad'-ee-on). Or masculine (in plural) stadios (stad'-ee-os) from the base of histemi (as fixed); a stade or certain measure of distance; by implication, a stadium or race-course:
-- furlong, race.

as listed in Strong's Concordance.

Britannica.com gives us this definition:

"The stade consisted of 625 Roman feet (185 metres or 606.9 feet), or 125 paces, and was equal to one-eighth of a mile."

And, if one looks up this measurement, one can find that Ancient Roman units of measurement at Wikipedia gives us these values for the Roman "stadium" or stade in English: 185 m. or 607.14 ft. I'm not sure how I discovered it anymore, but I actually was looking up the Roman mile markers all around Europe, Turkey and the Middle East, and discovered it to be a little more refined as 607.14222 ft. This was well accepted in the Roman Empire, under whose authority John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. So, it would make sense that this is the measurement he used.

If one assumes this length for a stade, one can calculate the length of the side of the New Jerusalem as ...

12,000 stad x 607.14222 ft / stad x 1 mi / 5,280 ft = 1,379.86868 miles!

That's about the distance from Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin to Tampa, Florida! And, that's the distance of this city long, wide, and HIGH! That's slightly bigger than most artists can picture.

So, what is the 144 cubits? That's about 252 feet (using the 21-inch cubit). That's actually paper-thin compared to the 1,379.86 miles! However, all real objects have three dimensions: length width, and depth. I believe this is the THICKNESS of the walls of the New Jerusalem, and specifically, the thickness at the gates, which would be easiest to measure.

Now, the problem with this length of 1,379.868686 mi. or 1,379 mi 4,586 ft 8 in, is in relation to the size of the earth.

Can anyone see the problem?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

This city has been compared to the city found in Ezekiel 48:

First, we've been told what kind of measurement that Ychezk'eel (Ezekiel) is using in Ezekiel 40:15:

Ezekiel 40:1-5 (KJV)

1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. 2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. 3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate. 4 And the man said unto me,

"Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel."

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

So, this is a 6-cubit rod, graduated for reading length, but it is based upon the long cubit, which is a short cubit of 18 inches + a hand breadth of 3 inches = 21 inches. Then entire length of the rod or "reed" is ...
6 cubits x 21 inches/cubit x 1 ft / 12 inches = 126 inches x 1 ft / 12 inches = 10.5 feet or 10 feet 6 inches.

It's important to remember that the man is measuring with a "reed" that is 6 cubits long; so, when you read "measures" realize that this is in "reeds" not cubits. (I think this is about what @JoeCanada was trying to remind me in New Jerusalem - Order of Events. It DOES make a difference!)

Ezekiel 47:13-48:35 (KJV)

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD (Hebrew: 'Adonaay YHWH);

"This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. 14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea), the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad; 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast (border) of Hauran. 17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.

18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea (the Dead Sea). And this is the east side.

19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea). And this is the south side southward.

20 The west side also shall be the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea) from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. 22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance," saith the Lord GOD.

1 "Now these are the names of the tribes:

"From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. 

2 "And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher. 

3 "And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali. 

4 "And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. 

5 "And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. 

6 "And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben. 

7 "And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

8 "And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds (25,000 rods x 10.5 ft/rod x 1 mi / 5,280 ft = 49.7159 miles or 49 miles 3,780 feet)  in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. 9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length, and of ten thousand (10,000) in breadth.

 

Now, it's important at this point to take a break and consider what is said here: He is saying that the "portion" of each tribe listed so far is also 10,000 reeds in length = 19 mi 4,680 ft. from east to west, although the breadth is different. The "breadth" is a north-to-south distance, and the "length" is an east-to-west distance. An Israeliy map back then would have been drawn with east upward on the map, west downward, south on the right, and north on the left. Continuing on...

 

10 "And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north (on the north side) five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length, and toward the west (on the west side) ten thousand (10,000) in breadth, and toward the east (on the east side) ten thousand (10,000) in breadth, and toward the south (on the south side) five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof (in the middle of it). 11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. 12 And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. 

13 "And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand. 14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.

15 "And the five thousand (5,000 reeds), that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane (common) place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof (in the middle of it). 16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and the south side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and on the east side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and the west side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds). 17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the south two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the east two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the west two hundred and fifty (250 reeds). 18 And the residue (the rest) in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward (on the east side), and ten thousand westward (on the west side): and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city. 19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel. 20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand (25,000 reeds x 25,000 reeds): ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.

21 "And the residue (the rest) shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof. 22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.

23 "As for the rest of the tribes,

"from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion. 

24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion. 

25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion. 

26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion. 

27And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion. 

28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea. 29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

30 "And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds). 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. 

32 "And at the east side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds): and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. 

33 "And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds): and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. 

34 "At the west side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. 

35 "It was round about eighteen thousand measures (the perimeter is 18,000 reeds): and the name of the city from that day shall be,

"'The LORD is there.'" (Hebrew: YHWH Shaammaah)

 

So, this city is said to have a square foot print of 4,500 reeds by 4,500 reeds or 8.949 miles by 8.949 miles with 0.497 mile around the perimeter of the city in all directions for "suburbs." The city's perimeter is said to be 18,000 reeds or 35.795 miles around. That's also an area of 8.949 miles by 8.949 miles or about 80 square miles for the city proper, and 9.943 miles by 9.943 miles or almost 99 square miles with suburbs. That's a significantly smaller city, and it isn't even called "Yerushalayim" or "Jerusalem"; it's called "YHWH Shaammaah"!

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom and happy Chanukkah and Merry Christmas, everyone!

I had said and asked, ...

"Now, the problem with this length of 1,379.868686 mi. or 1,379 mi 4,586 ft 8 in, is in relation to the size of the earth.

Can anyone see the problem?"

speaking about the New Jerusalem.

Perhaps, this thread hasn't been discovered, yet; or, people don't want to venture into the unknown, unsure of where I'm trying to lead them, but so far, I haven't had a response.

The earth today has a radius of 3963.1906 miles, and a circumference (at the equator) of 24,901.461 miles.

Now, I believe that the text says the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth and it sets down upon its surface. There are several reasons for this conclusion, but a few are ...

1) The word "ouranos" is the Greek word meaning the "sky." And, the "new heaven" uses this word. It is NOT talking about "God's abode"; it is talking about the new earth having a "new atmosphere," a "new sky." (See Matthew 16:1-4 for an example of how Yeeshuwa` was translated.) The New Jerusalem is said to be "coming down from God out of heaven," and the word "heaven" here is also "ouranos." Therefore, the New Jerusalem is "coming down from God out of the sky."

National Geographic tells us,

"Earth’s atmosphere stretches from the surface of the planet up to as far as 10,000 kilometers (6,214 miles) above. After that, the atmosphere blends into space. Not all scientists agree where the actual upper boundary of the atmosphere is, but they can agree that the bulk of the atmosphere is located close to Earth’s surface—up to a distance of around eight to 15 kilometers (five to nine miles)."

This city is 1,379.868686 MILES high! That means that is will be IN the earth's atmosphere as it is descending "out of the sky," and it will be "wading" in the bulk of the atmosphere as it touches down upon the earth. It may as well land!

2) John said, "the city lieth foursquare." That means that it covers a square plot of ground. The actual Greek wording is "ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται," transliterated, we write "hee polis tetragoonos keitai," which tranlates word-for-word as "the city four-angled lies." The word "keitai" is the present, indicative, middle of "keimai," third-person, singular. Strong's lists the word as ...

2749 keimai κεῖμαι (ki-mahee). Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively) -- be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare tithemi.

So, that would be hard to do if it wasn't "lying down outstretched" upon the earth.

3) John said that the walls of this city has 12 foundations. While I believe that 11 of these are foundational LEVELS above the earth's surface, one would at least expect the FIRST foundation to be upon, even within, the earth's surface, by which to anchor it.

Now, I'm going to make an assumption, but I believe it is a valid one:

I believe that the New Earth will have similar dimensions to this earth upon which we live.

I make this assumption because of what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the (1) heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

[This is the heavens and earth BEFORE the flood, the FIRST heavens and earth.]

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

[This was the Global Flood that occurred during the lifetime of Noach.]

7 But the (2) heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[This is the current heavens and earth in which was are now living.]

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

[This is the Global Fire that will occur in association with the defeat of Satan.]

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[And, this is the heavens and earth which we anticipate and of which John wrote in Revelation 21, calling it the "New Heaven and the New Earth." (Incidently, I believe that this is also what Paul meant by a "third heaven" - a "third sky" in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.)]

Based upon what we can read of the first heaven being before the Flood of Noach's time, the account of the Flood in Genesis chapters 6 through 9, and the results we find upon this earth on which we live, I don't think that the dimensions of this present earth are much different than that of the first earth before the Flood.

Consequently, I don't think the dimensions of the third earth after the Fire will be that much different than the dimensions of this present earth.

So, if the New Earth will also have a radius of about 3,963.1906 miles, and a circumference (at the equator) of 24,901.461 miles, then this city covers quite a bit of its circumference! Let's see ...

x : 1,379.86868686 mi :: 360 degrees : 24,901.461 mi

This is the ratio that will determine how many degrees of the earth's circumference this would cover.

This suggests x / 1,379.868686 mi = 360 degrees / 24,901.461 mi

Multiplying each side by 1,379.868686 mi to isolate x, we get

x = 1,379.868686 mi x 360 degrees / 24,901.461 mi = 496,752,727272 mi-degrees / 24,901.461 mi = 19.9487 degrees!

That's almost 20 degrees of the earth's circumference!

Now, first understand this: Everywhere anyone goes on the surface of the earth, the earth can feel flat, and we stand orthogonal to that flat surface. This is why we have "flat earthers."

An encyclopedia I used as a kid explained it this way to me: It would be like a fly landing on a ball the size of one's neighborhood block! No matter where the fly would land, it would experience feeling like it had landed on a flat surface! The curvature for it would be so slight, that it could look all around itself and see a horizon to the ball, but the "land," the surface of the ball, would still appear flat! He could even walk around on the ball for several of its "miles" and not experience any difference!

However, one should understand from this that "down" on one side of this massive city will be 20 degrees different than "down" on it's opposite side! And, both sides will be almost 10 degrees different than down in the middle of the city!

If one believes that this city will be a "cube" in shape, this fact presents a HUGE obstacle! (No pun intended.) Let me explain:

IF the "cube" shape of the city was actually a cube while in space, when it landed, the center of the cube would be LOWER in the middle of the city than its edges would be! It can be calculated using simple trigonometry to be a depth of 237.797 miles deep! That's FAR below the earth's crust well into the mantle! Furthermore, the walls of the city would not be vertical to anyone standing anywhere around the outside of the city! They would be off vertical by 10 degrees, sloping toward the center of the city!

 

 

While it was far away and descending, one could tell that it was cubical with the top distance across the same as the distance across its bottom, but when it lands, from the ground, we could tell by measurement that its side is 1,379.86 miles long, but we would see the top as being shorter than it should be ... by several miles, in fact! We would NOT experience it from the ground as a "cube!"

If we tried to "fix" this perception by making the walls perpendicular or orthogonal to the earth's surface on both sides of the city, from space its cross-section would appear like a thin pizza wedge, that somebody took a huge bite out of from the pointed end! The sides of the city would no longer be parallel to each other, and the top and the bottom sides would not only be curved parallel to each other, but the top would be PHYSICALLY longer than the bottom!

No matter how one chooses to see this cube of a city, on the surface of the earth, it would NOT be cubical!

Next, let's talk about a different shape that works FAR better!

[OneLight]

All this has my head spinning trying to follow your mathematical logic.

First, we are not told how large or small the new earth will be.

Second, God does not tell us much of the New Jerusalem for us to say what it will be like, just the detentions that could fit a cube, as some believe, or a pyramid as some believe.  Question is, does it really matter???

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 12/23/2022 at 12:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

It's been requested that we start a topic on the New Jerusalem's size and shape.

I REALLY think that's a good idea, because IMO there is NOTHING quite so invigorating and exciting!

So much time is spent in prophecy on the book of Revelation leading up to the description of the New Jerusalem, but so little time is actually spent on that city! So much has been written about the "Tribulation" and the "Seventieth Week of Daniel," and very little is spent on the Millennium, the "chilia etee," the "one thousand years," and the one thousand years are MUCH longer than a mere 7 years! Longer still will be the Eternal State described as the New Heaven, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem.

The size of the New Jerusalem, Greek: Ierousaleem Kaineen, Hebrew: Yerushalayim haChadashah, is a good place to start.

So, let's start with the description of the city: I'm going to add quotation marks (and perhaps an exclamation point or two), as well as use colors to distinguish the various parts: Green will be for narration, purple will be for quotations of YHWH God ("the LORD God"), red will be for quotations of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah ("Jesus the Christ"), and blue will be for anyone else.

Revelation 21:1-22:9 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain (hard labor): for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful!"

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me,

"These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 "'Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.'"

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me,

"See thou do it not!: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God!"

Many don't really know what to make of this description. Some just feel it is a colorful allegory or flowery, figurative speech, but I believe that there is SO MUCH DETAIL in this description that I can't see it as anything other than a LITERAL DESCRIPTION of a LITERAL, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL CITY!

First, I am primarily a mathematician, but I also enjoy the sciences, as well. One of those sciences I enjoy is astronomy, and I'm a great fan of men like Sir Isaac Newton! His laws of motion, and his study of gravity and the interaction of bodies of mass exerting equal attraction for each other has always fascinated me, and I find his formulas to be descriptions of the real events in space.

The size of this city is phenomenal! It is HUGE! I know that artists in the past have done the best they know how to do in drawing and painting what they believed the city to look like, but most fall far short of the reality!

To understand how big this city is, first we have to know what the units are. This city is said to "[lie] foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."

This is the measure of one dimension of the city: The length is 12,000 furlongs. Now, "furlongs" is a translation of the Greek word "stadioon," ("σταδίων"), which is the genitive, masculine, plural of ...

4712 stadion στάδιον, ου, τό (stad'-ee-on). Or masculine (in plural) stadios (stad'-ee-os) from the base of histemi (as fixed); a stade or certain measure of distance; by implication, a stadium or race-course:
-- furlong, race.

as listed in Strong's Concordance.

Britannica.com gives us this definition:

"The stade consisted of 625 Roman feet (185 metres or 606.9 feet), or 125 paces, and was equal to one-eighth of a mile."

And, if one looks up this measurement, one can find that Ancient Roman units of measurement at Wikipedia gives us these values for the Roman "stadium" or stade in English: 185 m. or 607.14 ft. I'm not sure how I discovered it anymore, but I actually was looking up the Roman mile markers all around Europe, Turkey and the Middle East, and discovered it to be a little more refined as 607.14222 ft. This was well accepted in the Roman Empire, under whose authority John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. So, it would make sense that this is the measurement he used.

If one assumes this length for a stade, one can calculate the length of the side of the New Jerusalem as ...

12,000 stad x 607.14222 ft / stad x 1 mi / 5,280 ft = 1,379.86868 miles!

That's about the distance from Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin to Tampa, Florida! And, that's the distance of this city long, wide, and HIGH! That's slightly bigger than most artists can picture.

So, what is the 144 cubits? That's about 252 feet (using the 21-inch cubit). That's actually paper-thin compared to the 1,379.86 miles! However, all real objects have three dimensions: length width, and depth. I believe this is the THICKNESS of the walls of the New Jerusalem, and specifically, the thickness at the gates, which would be easiest to measure.

Now, the problem with this length of 1,379.868686 mi. or 1,379 mi 4,586 ft 8 in, is in relation to the size of the earth.

Can anyone see the problem?

 

I see no problem. You are trying to understand this from a human point of view. Maybe the earth will be bigger at that time. Maybe Maybe the foundation will be thicker at the corners so the walls will be equal. Maybe there will be a level spot on the earth specifically for that glorious city. I believe John knew what he was talking about when he said "cube" and i don't believe it can be any other shape. It's DEFINITELY not the same as whats in Ezekiel. I'm thinking God maybe knows something we don't and when we see it one day we will stand in amazement and say "OH", that's how he did it.

[Selah7]

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom and happy Chanukkah and Merry Christmas, everyone!

I had said and asked, ...

"Now, the problem with this length of 1,379.868686 mi. or 1,379 mi 4,586 ft 8 in, is in relation to the size of the earth.

Can anyone see the problem?"

speaking about the New Jerusalem.

Perhaps, this thread hasn't been discovered, yet; or, people don't want to venture into the unknown, unsure of where I'm trying to lead them, but so far, I haven't had a response.

The earth today has a radius of 3963.1906 miles, and a circumference (at the equator) of 24,901.461 miles.

Now, I believe that the text says the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth and it sets down upon its surface. There are several reasons for this conclusion, but a few are ...

1) The word "ouranos" is the Greek word meaning the "sky." And, the "new heaven" uses this word. It is NOT talking about "God's abode"; it is talking about the new earth having a "new atmosphere," a "new sky." (See Matthew 16:1-4 for an example of how Yeeshuwa` was translated.) The New Jerusalem is said to be "coming down from God out of heaven," and the word "heaven" here is also "ouranos." Therefore, the New Jerusalem is "coming down from God out of the sky."

National Geographic tells us,

"Earth’s atmosphere stretches from the surface of the planet up to as far as 10,000 kilometers (6,214 miles) above. After that, the atmosphere blends into space. Not all scientists agree where the actual upper boundary of the atmosphere is, but they can agree that the bulk of the atmosphere is located close to Earth’s surface—up to a distance of around eight to 15 kilometers (five to nine miles)."

This city is 1,379.868686 MILES high! That means that is will be IN the earth's atmosphere as it is descending "out of the sky," and it will be "wading" in the bulk of the atmosphere as it touches down upon the earth. It may as well land!

2) John said, "the city lieth foursquare." That means that it covers a square plot of ground. The actual Greek wording is "ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται," transliterated, we write "hee polis tetragoonos keitai," which tranlates word-for-word as "the city four-angled lies." The word "keitai" is the present, indicative, middle of "keimai," third-person, singular. Strong's lists the word as ...

2749 keimai κεῖμαι (ki-mahee). Middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively) -- be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare tithemi.

So, that would be hard to do if it wasn't "lying down outstretched" upon the earth.

3) John said that the walls of this city has 12 foundations. While I believe that 11 of these are foundational LEVELS above the earth's surface, one would at least expect the FIRST foundation to be upon, even within, the earth's surface, by which to anchor it.

Now, I'm going to make an assumption, but I believe it is a valid one:

I believe that the New Earth will have similar dimensions to this earth upon which we live.

I make this assumption because of what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the (1) heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

[This is the heavens and earth BEFORE the flood, the FIRST heavens and earth.]

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

[This was the Global Flood that occurred during the lifetime of Noach.]

7 But the (2) heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[This is the current heavens and earth in which was are now living.]

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

[This is the Global Fire that will occur in association with the defeat of Satan.]

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[And, this is the heavens and earth which we anticipate and of which John wrote in Revelation 21, calling it the "New Heaven and the New Earth." (Incidently, I believe that this is also what Paul meant by a "third heaven" - a "third sky" in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.)]

Based upon what we can read of the first heaven being before the Flood of Noach's time, the account of the Flood in Genesis chapters 6 through 9, and the results we find upon this earth on which we live, I don't think that the dimensions of this present earth are much different than that of the first earth before the Flood.

Consequently, I don't think the dimensions of the third earth after the Fire will be that much different than the dimensions of this present earth.

So, if the New Earth will also have a radius of about 3,963.1906 miles, and a circumference (at the equator) of 24,901.461 miles, then this city covers quite a bit of its circumference! Let's see ...

x : 1,379.86868686 mi :: 360 degrees : 24,901.461 mi

This is the ratio that will determine how many degrees of the earth's circumference this would cover.

This suggests x / 1,379.868686 mi = 360 degrees / 24,901.461 mi

Multiplying each side by 1,379.868686 mi to isolate x, we get

x = 1,379.868686 mi x 360 degrees / 24,901.461 mi = 496,752,727272 mi-degrees / 24,901.461 mi = 19.9487 degrees!

That's almost 20 degrees of the earth's circumference!

Now, first understand this: Everywhere anyone goes on the surface of the earth, the earth can feel flat, and we stand orthogonal to that flat surface. This is why we have "flat earthers."

An encyclopedia I used as a kid explained it this way to me: It would be like a fly landing on a ball the size of one's neighborhood block! No matter where the fly would land, it would experience feeling like it had landed on a flat surface! The curvature for it would be so slight, that it could look all around itself and see a horizon to the ball, but the "land," the surface of the ball, would still appear flat! He could even walk around on the ball for several of its "miles" and not experience any difference!

However, one should understand from this that "down" on one side of this massive city will be 20 degrees different than "down" on it's opposite side! And, both sides will be almost 10 degrees different than down in the middle of the city!

If one believes that this city will be a "cube" in shape, this fact presents a HUGE obstacle! (No pun intended.) Let me explain:

IF the "cube" shape of the city was actually a cube while in space, when it landed, the center of the cube would be LOWER in the middle of the city than its edges would be! It can be calculated using simple trigonometry to be a depth of 237.797 miles deep! That's FAR below the earth's crust well into the mantle! Furthermore, the walls of the city would not be vertical to anyone standing anywhere around the outside of the city! They would be off vertical by 10 degrees, sloping toward the center of the city!

 

 

While it was far away and descending, one could tell that it was cubical with the top distance across the same as the distance across its bottom, but when it lands, from the ground, we could tell by measurement that its side is 1,379.86 miles long, but we would see the top as being shorter than it should be ... by several miles, in fact! We would NOT experience it from the ground as a "cube!"

If we tried to "fix" this perception by making the walls perpendicular or orthogonal to the earth's surface on both sides of the city, from space its cross-section would appear like a thin pizza wedge, that somebody took a huge bite out of from the pointed end! The sides of the city would no longer be parallel to each other, and the top and the bottom sides would not only be curved parallel to each other, but the top would be PHYSICALLY longer than the bottom!

No matter how one chooses to see this cube of a city, on the surface of the earth, it would NOT be cubical!

Next, let's talk about a different shape that works FAR better!

Round; surely not flat, imo.  I’m one who believes the New Jerusalem will be right here on earth.  I’m persuaded that God’s favorite place on earth is Mt. Zion:

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. God is known in her palaces for a refuge. As we have heard, so have we seen in the city of the LORD of hosts, in the city of our God: God will establish it for ever. Selah.

- Psalm 48:1-3,8 (KJV)

Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

- Zechariah 8:3 (KJV)

Edited December 24, 2022 by Selah7
added scripture

[Revelation Man]

I think just like the 144,000 in Rev. 7 its a CODE for COMPLETION. 12 = fulness and 10 = completion, so when we get 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 we get Fulness x Completion. God doesn't need to tells us the real details. 

[Spiros]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

This city has been compared to the city found in Ezekiel 48:

First, we've been told what kind of measurement that Ychezk'eel (Ezekiel) is using in Ezekiel 40:15:

Ezekiel 40:1-5 (KJV)

1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. 2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. 3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate. 4 And the man said unto me,

"Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel."

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

So, this is a 6-cubit rod, graduated for reading length, but it is based upon the long cubit, which is a short cubit of 18 inches + a hand breadth of 3 inches = 21 inches. Then entire length of the rod or "reed" is ...
6 cubits x 21 inches/cubit x 1 ft / 12 inches = 126 inches x 1 ft / 12 inches = 10.5 feet or 10 feet 6 inches.

It's important to remember that the man is measuring with a "reed" that is 6 cubits long; so, when you read "measures" realize that this is in "reeds" not cubits. (I think this is about what @JoeCanada was trying to remind me in New Jerusalem - Order of Events. It DOES make a difference!)

Ezekiel 47:13-48:35 (KJV)

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD (Hebrew: 'Adonaay YHWH);

"This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. 14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea), the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad; 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast (border) of Hauran. 17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.

18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea (the Dead Sea). And this is the east side.

19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea). And this is the south side southward.

20 The west side also shall be the great sea (the Mediterranean Sea) from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. 22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance," saith the Lord GOD.

1 "Now these are the names of the tribes:

"From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. 

2 "And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher. 

3 "And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali. 

4 "And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. 

5 "And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. 

6 "And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben. 

7 "And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

8 "And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds (25,000 rods x 10.5 ft/rod x 1 mi / 5,280 ft = 49.7159 miles or 49 miles 3,780 feet)  in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. 9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length, and of ten thousand (10,000) in breadth.

 

Now, it's important at this point to take a break and consider what is said here: He is saying that the "portion" of each tribe listed so far is also 10,000 reeds in length = 19 mi 4,680 ft. from east to west, although the breadth is different. The "breadth" is a north-to-south distance, and the "length" is an east-to-west distance. An Israeliy map back then would have been drawn with east upward on the map, west downward, south on the right, and north on the left. Continuing on...

 

10 "And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north (on the north side) five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length, and toward the west (on the west side) ten thousand (10,000) in breadth, and toward the east (on the east side) ten thousand (10,000) in breadth, and toward the south (on the south side) five and twenty thousand (25,000) in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof (in the middle of it). 11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. 12 And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. 

13 "And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand. 14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.

15 "And the five thousand (5,000 reeds), that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane (common) place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof (in the middle of it). 16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and the south side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and on the east side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), and the west side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds). 17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the south two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the east two hundred and fifty (250 reeds), and toward the west two hundred and fifty (250 reeds). 18 And the residue (the rest) in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward (on the east side), and ten thousand westward (on the west side): and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city. 19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel. 20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand (25,000 reeds x 25,000 reeds): ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.

21 "And the residue (the rest) shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof. 22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.

23 "As for the rest of the tribes,

"from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion. 

24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion. 

25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion. 

26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion. 

27And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion. 

28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea. 29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.

30 "And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds). 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. 

32 "And at the east side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds): and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. 

33 "And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures (4,500 reeds): and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. 

34 "At the west side four thousand and five hundred (4,500 reeds), with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. 

35 "It was round about eighteen thousand measures (the perimeter is 18,000 reeds): and the name of the city from that day shall be,

"'The LORD is there.'" (Hebrew: YHWH Shaammaah)

 

So, this city is said to have a square foot print of 4,500 reeds by 4,500 reeds or 8.949 miles by 8.949 miles with 0.497 mile around the perimeter of the city in all directions for "suburbs." The city's perimeter is said to be 18,000 reeds or 35.795 miles around. That's also an area of 8.949 miles by 8.949 miles or about 80 square miles for the city proper, and 9.943 miles by 9.943 miles or almost 99 square miles with suburbs. That's a significantly smaller city, and it isn't even called "Yerushalayim" or "Jerusalem"; it's called "YHWH Shaammaah"!

The pyramids of Egypt. One reed is equal to 6 royal Egyptian cubits:

 

https://i.postimg.cc/0yghCJV9/reed002.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/SKK0XbZ9/reed003.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/q7qYJXRX/reed004.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/8kRyVn4g/reed005.jpg

 

[Retrobyter]

Again, Shabbat Shalom, Happy Chanukkah, and Merry Christmas to all!

Now, I'd like to offer this view for you to consider: A pyramid with a cupped bottom, cupped at the same curvature as that of the earth. This is not unprecedented nor was it unseen by the prophets!

Zechariah's tomb is so ornated:

It was Z'kharyahuw (Zechariah) who wrote,

Zechariah 4:1-7 (KJV)

1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me,

"What seest thou?"

And I said,

"I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."

4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying,

"What are these, my lord?"

5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me,

"Knowest thou not what these be?"

And I said,

"No, my lord."

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,

"This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,

"'Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,' saith the LORD of hosts. 7 'Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, "Grace, grace unto it!"'"

The NIV says verses 6 and 7 this way:

Zechariah 4:6-7 (NIV)

6 So he said to me,

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:

"‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty. 7 'What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’ ”

The author of the 118th Psalm wrote:

Psalm 118:21-26 (KJV)

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee (Hebrew: Yshaa naa'), O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

This portion of the psalm is quoted in many locations in the New Testament:

When Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was being rejected by the leaders of Judah and chief priests, He used it Himself:

Matthew 21:23-46 (KJV)

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said,

"By what authority doest thou these things?" and "who gave thee this authority?"

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"

And they reasoned with themselves, saying,

"If we shall say, 'From heaven'; he will say unto us, 'Why did ye not then believe him?' 26 But if we shall say, 'Of men'; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet."

27 And they answered Jesus, and said,

"We cannot tell."

And he said unto them,

"Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

28 "But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, 'I will not': but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir': and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father?"

They say unto him,

"The first."

Jesus saith unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him!

33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, 'They will reverence my son.' 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance!' 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?"

41 They say unto him,

"He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

42 Jesus saith unto them,

"Did ye never read in the scriptures,

"'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes'?

43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder!"

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The picture Psalm 118:22 paints is that the builders of a pyramid found this stone in the quarry and try as they may they could not get it to fit into their pyramid. So, they told the carters, "Take it back to the quarry." But, when they were finished building ... OOPS! "Y'know, that stone we had earlier would have made a terrific CAPSTONE!"

Mark tells this account here:

Mark 12:1-12 (KJV)

1 And he began to speak unto them by parables.

"A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. 2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. 4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. 5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, 'They will reverence my son.' 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.' 8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?"

"he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others."

10 "And have ye not read this scripture;

"'The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes'?"

12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

And, Luke also recounts the words here:

Luke 20:1-19 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying,

"Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things?" or "who is he that gave thee this authority?"

3 And he answered and said unto them,

"I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?"

5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying,

"If we shall say, 'From heaven'; he will say, 'Why then believed ye him not?' 6 But and if we say, 'Of men'; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet."

7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them,

"Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things."

9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable;

"A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. 11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. 12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. 13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.' 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, 'This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.' 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?"

16 "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it, they said, "God forbid!"

17 And he beheld them, and said,

"What is this then that is written,

"'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?'

18 "Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder!"

19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. 

Next, I'll get into the mathematics.

[Neighbor]

Hi Retrobyter,

I am peaked of interest; did you spend some time under the lessons  by Gene Scott? Especially his year long one on the Great Pyramid of Giza with it's proportions in relationship to earth, with it's calendar of prophecy to be fulfilled much now having been fulfilled?