Circumcision, Sabbath, clean meat and animal sacrifice offerings for sin atonement did not make people holy.

[R. Hartono]

15 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

If the 'spirit' turns you away from what Christ says, then it is not the 'Holy Spirit' but another. lets see what Christ says... 
 

1. Luke 18:20
   Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
2. John 14:15
   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
3. John 14:21
   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
4. John 15:10
   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
5. 1 John 2:4
   He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
6. 1 John 3:22
   And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
7. 1 John 3:24
   And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
8. 1 John 5:2
   By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
9. 1 John 5:3
   For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
10. 2 John 1:6
    And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
11. Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
12. Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13. Revelation 22:14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I think a Christian would hold on to and believe what Christ says and the scripture clearly shows, rather than a 'spirit' that teaches against it...

What "spirit" are you talking about ?

[Hobie_]

21 hours ago, JimmyB said:

I have no idea why you're focusing on the commandments, when the Bible clearly says that Christians are to be led by the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit given to us by Christ.  Here is some Scripture for you to read and meditate upon...

Romans 8:1-11, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit. For the outlook^[of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but  the Spirit is your life because of righteousnes¹ Moreover if the Spirit of the one^[who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you."

Nothing could be plainer than what Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome concerning living by the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit does not guide you away from Christ, and we see what Christ and scripture says of what He wrote with His own finger....

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

1 John 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

1 John 2:4

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Hobie_]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

What "spirit" are you talking about ?

Well, its not of God that is clear if it turns you away from Gods Word and denies what Christ says. Now if you look deeper, the law is based on God's holy nature and as such scripture states are holy, just, and unchanging, and we see this in the Ten Commandments. But then you also have the ceremonial law which focused the people’s attention on God and gave the people signs that point to the coming Messiah, such as the Passover, and the sacrifices of the unblemished lamb by the priests. One was written with Gods own finger, and the other was from Moses.

Matthew 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We see here that Jesus stated "Think not that I am come to destroy the law..but to fulfill", what did He mean? Now, since Jesus knew what laws His death would fulfill, would He be saying this about the Ten Commandments if He were going to fulfill them? So what was He fulfilling, it seems clear it was what pointed to Him, Moses’ ceremonial law which is evident if we see what Jesus said when asked.

Mark 12:28-31 King James Version (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 22:37-40 King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Ten Commandments are arranged in two groups, the first group, from one to four, deal with our relationship to God, the second group, from five to ten, deal with our relationship to one another. When we read Matthew 22:37-40, it is obvious that it is the Ten Commandments Jesus is talking about. So did Jesus want to do away with the Ten Commandments or did He came to fulfill that which pointed to Him as the Lamb of God, the ceremonial law of Moses, I think its plain to see..

[JimmyB]

9 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

But the Holy Spirit does not guide you away from Christ, and we see what Christ and scripture says of what He wrote with His own finger....

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

1 John 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

1 John 2:4

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

It is important to understand to whom Jesus and John were communicating with and what they were saying in context.  

Matthew's and John's gospel were addressed to the Jews before Jesus died and the Holy Spirit was given.  He was telling them to keep God's Old Covenant commandments, a.k.a., the Law.

After the Holy Spirit was given, Christians keep God's commandments because the Spirit guides us.  Why do you think Paul wrote extensively about being dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus?

 

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." Romans 7:4

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

(Bolding put in by search engine)

If you are under the law you deny Christ.  It's that simple.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by JimmyB

[Hobie_]

41 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

It is important to understand to whom Jesus and John were communicating with and what they were saying in context.  

Matthew's and John's gospel were addressed to the Jews before Jesus died and the Holy Spirit was given.  He was telling them to keep God's Old Covenant commandments, a.k.a., the Law.

After the Holy Spirit was given, Christians keep God's commandments because the Spirit guides us.  Why do you think Paul wrote extensively about being dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus?

 

"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." Romans 7:4

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

(Bolding put in by search engine)

If you are under the law you deny Christ.  It's that simple.

 

I think scripture shows the truth of the matter....

Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Hobie_

[JimmyB]

17 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

I think scripture shows the truth of the matter....

Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Doing the commandments is accomplished in either of two ways.  Either one tries to keep the written law and fails because of the sinful nature, or one is guided by the Holy Spirit, given to those who are born again.

If you try by your own efforts to "keep the commandments" then you're putting yourself back under the law and denying the salvation of Christ.

Edited August 27, 2022 by JimmyB

[Marathoner]

The Law is for the Jew, as this was given to the seed of Jacob by Moses. Seeing as how the Law is a frequent subject here on the forums, scripturally-based refutations of arguments made by some who fancy themselves preachers of the Law have been provided time and again. Topics like this one proliferate the forums, so I encourage the reader to search the topics where they'll discover this dead horse beaten many times. I tire of the argument.

The notion that the Lord judges all men according to the Law is error, for this error implies that God is incapable of judging a man according to his own works. This speaks of how all men great and small are judged by the Almighty; those who never received the Law stand with the recipients of it before His throne. Most of us in this day and age are strangers to the Law of Moses, and remained that way until a self-styled preacher of the Law came to accuse us.

We remember how certain believers of the Pharisees in Jerusalem preached this error of antiquity, demanding that Gentiles added to the Body conform to the Law of Moses; we also remember the judgement of the Holy Spirit regarding this matter, and how the Lord placed no such burden on Gentiles. The relevant passages from the 15th chapter of Acts is the definitive rebuke of accusers who come to us preaching an admixture of the Law and grace. It's noted that the judgement of the Spirit of God is duly ignored by the same.

It's beyond their comprehension that before the Law, the Lord was well-pleased to justify His beloved; and now that the fullness has come in the only begotten Son of the Father, Jesus Christ, God Himself dwells with us night and day. The Son of God sent His Spirit into the world, pouring Himself upon all flesh, and so we understand this:

The commandment is living and daily, not dead nor frozen in time recorded by letters. We walk by the law of the Spirit, not the letter, for we are the seed of Abraham in Jesus Christ. Matters of Law and grace are for the Jew who believes, not wild branches. Those Jews who believe Christ died and were buried with Him in death... and because the Jew died, they are no longer under the dominion of the Law. The Law only has dominion so long as a man lives. Once he dies, he is freed to serve another.

As for us who were never given the Law, we are grafted into the same vine and joint heirs in Christ by His power and Spirit. There is no Jew nor Gentile (Greek) in the Son of the living God. Why do some who never received the Law seek to subject others to it? If this one desires to subject themselves under the yoke of the Law, then let them do that. Our only concern are for those who are vulnerable to that error of antiquity. 

The new covenant is more excellent in every way to the old.

[Hobie_]

4 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Doing the commandments is accomplished in either of two ways.  Either one tries to keep the written law and fails because of the sinful nature, or one is guided by the Holy Spirit, given to those who are born again.

If you try by your own efforts to "keep the commandments" then you're putting yourself back under the law and denying the salvation of Christ.

I never said "by my own efforts" as you try to imply, it is always through Christ, and He says it clearly and unequivocally..

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:10 PM, R. Hartono said:

Not even the blood of Jesus can purify sins if people do not repent from all sins and wickedness of hearts.

 

So you believe in a works salvation? The blood of Jesus DEFINITELY IS enough. That's why he cried out on the cross " It is finished ". So if it's finished, what more are we to do? If we must be obedient, then we are earning salvation. It's no longer a gift. There are many salvation passages that don't mention repentance at all. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

8 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Doing the commandments is accomplished in either of two ways.  Either one tries to keep the written law and fails because of the sinful nature, or one is guided by the Holy Spirit, given to those who are born again.

If you try by your own efforts to "keep the commandments" then you're putting yourself back under the law and denying the salvation of Christ.

It is good to try to follow the commandments as that are good for us. But salvation is not dependent on us following them. Faith in Christ is all that is necessary. The church has become legalistic and imposed additions to the finished work of Christ. It is God himself that keeps our salvation secure, not whether we obey the law or not. No one can obey the law. Jesus did it for us because we can't.