Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[transmogrified]

10 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Let me just say this. If you are a Christian and do not see yourself the O.T.

I'm sorry I am not understanding what you mean by seeing myself the O.T?

[transmogrified]

17 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I'm sorry I am not understanding what you mean by seeing myself the O.T?

God's people ( Christians) were chosen in Him before the world began. We are mentioned very much in the O.T. Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 31 are good examples, along with the book of Psalms.

Yes, believers before the law and believers during the law and believers under the New Testament are all the saints of the most high...Jesus said 'whoever does the will of my Father, the same is my brother and mother and sister...' 

The example in Romans 11 shows this to be the case...the vine in the analogy is Jesus as he said 'I am the true vine and ye are the branches..' so even in the Old Testament the saints were in Christ, and of course when Israel gets saved they are only being graffed back into the vine they were cut off from some 2000 years ago...

[Sister]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So when Job says 'in my flesh I shall see God' this would be true of any saint. It says we will be changed...this is how it says Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection...it say he appeared unto them 'in another form' -

When Jesus first rose from the dead, he saw Mary and told her not to touch him for he had not yet ascended to the Father (had not yet been reunited with him).

John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Would you say that Jesus was already raised incorruptible?  From this day forth he could never die again?  

1 Corinthians 15:35   But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36   Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

  1 Corinthians 15:37   And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

  1 Corinthians 15:38   But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
 

We know that if we follow in Christ's footsteps we shall be raised incorruptible just like he was, this is our hope, and this is the resurrection of the just, but all are not raised equal as it says it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain.  This takes me back to the different vessels in God's kingdom, some of gold, silver, wood, stone, some for honour and some for dishonour.  Every one has to be raised at some point to answer for the things they have done in their body.

But the question is, are they all raised at at the same time?  Because we know now in the book of Revelation, that there are two resurrections.

Revelation 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

  Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Please give your thoughts about this.  We know that the end time saints mentioned above in verse 4 will not be the only ones in that resurrection, because many others who followed Christ will be in that same resurrection, but who are the dead who lived not until the thousand years were finished?

[Sister]

22 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Alot of people believe the two witnesses of Christ in Revelation are good followers of Christ. What do you think? Do you believe those two witnesses of Jesus are doing what Jesus taught by tormenting people and killing them?

They sure have some kind of works those Christians do. 

Shilohsfoal

I believe that transmogrified already answered you on this one, and he answered correctly, but if you need a second opinion I suggest read the scripture again, the answer is in there;

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

  Revelation 11:4   These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

They have God's protection because he has sent them to wreak havoc on this kingdom of the Beast.

Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

Do you remember God doing this before on the kingdom of Egypt using Moses?  Do you recall how God used him to turn the waters into blood, and to send all the other plagues on to Egypt?  What about Elijah, how God used him to stop the rain for 3.5 yrs? In your opinion was Moses and Elijah considered evil men because they were bringing on all this evil? or were they just instruments used by God because they were holy men?  Remember they were not acting on their own.

  Revelation 11:7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast is killing them because they are of God.

[Sister]

23 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Well. According to Daniel. The little horn would travel southeast into the pleasant land. It would become strong. It would be diverse from the other horns it shares the kingdom with. It would subdue three horns. The little horn has eyes like that of a man's eyes and a mouth that speaks great things. It's boastful. It will persecute the saints for 3. 5 years. Then it's kingdom along with the ten will be destroyed and the kingdom will then be given to the saints forever.

Everything Daniel wrote about the little horn describes the state of Israel. It's origins and its present location. The one verse you just posted shows who persecutes those saints and Jesus mentions it on more than one occasion in the gospel. The saints in Israel who are persecuted by thier own people are the ones who will reign with Christ . They inherit the promised land forever. 

It was a promise God made to Abraham. 

Yes but you said 1948.  I wanted to know how you came to that conclusion?  You have just given details of what is said in the book of Daniel that we can all read, but don't necessarily come to your conclusion?  I showed you in scripture that this little horn is the FP, the one who will persecute the saints.  The little horn is only given 3.5 yrs to reign.  That's not a long time.  It's during his reign that Christ comes, so how can he have come in 1948 when he has not even appeared on the scene yet?

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

10 minutes ago, Sister said:

Shilohsfoal

I believe that transmogrified already answered you on this one, and he answered correctly, but if you need a second opinion I suggest read the scripture again, the answer is in there;

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

  Revelation 11:4   These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

They have God's protection because he has sent them to wreak havoc on this kingdom of the Beast.

Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

Do you remember God doing this before on the kingdom of Egypt using Moses?  Do you recall how God used him to turn the waters into blood, and to send all the other plagues on to Egypt?  What about Elijah, how God used him to stop the rain for 3.5 yrs? In your opinion was Moses and Elijah considered evil men because they were bringing on all this evil? or were they just instruments used by God because they were holy men?  Remember they were not acting on their own.

  Revelation 11:7   And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast is killing them because they are of God.

No he didn't answer correctly. 

Yes I remember God smiting the Egyptians and I remember God making fire come down from heaven. 

 

I'm not so sure it's God that is doing the tormenting in this verse. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-5.htm

If anyone tries to harm them, fire proceeds from thier mouths and devours thier enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 

 

I happen to know the gentile military that shall be occupying Jerusalem for those 42 months. I know for a fact that fire comes out of the leaders mouths of that military to destroy thier enemies. 

It's common knowledge 

The same military has the power to stop heaven so that it does not rain. It's called cloud seading.That process began during the Vietnam War. It was called operation Popeye in that war. 

Just keep in mind. The verse before the two witnesses are mentioned is talking about the Gentiles that occupy Jerusalem for those 42 months. 

[Shilohsfoal]

16 minutes ago, Sister said:

Yes but you said 1948.  I wanted to know how you came to that conclusion?  You have just given details of what is said in the book of Daniel that we can all read, but don't necessarily come to your conclusion?  I showed you in scripture that this little horn is the FP, the one who will persecute the saints.  The little horn is only given 3.5 yrs to reign.  That's not a long time.  It's during his reign that Christ comes, so how can he have come in 1948 when he has not even appeared on the scene yet?

 

 

No the little horn is not given 3.5 years to reign. That is only the amount of time it persecutes the saints. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

It doesn't say anything about how long he is given to reign. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

32 minutes ago, Sister said:

When Jesus first rose from the dead, he saw Mary and told her not to touch him for he had not yet ascended to the Father (had not yet been reunited with him).

John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Would you say that Jesus was already raised incorruptible?  From this day forth he could never die again?  

Yes. There is a difference between being resurrected and ascending up to heaven. Paul said the body is sown in weakness and it is raised (resurrected) in power...it is sown a natural body it is raised (resurrected) a spiritual body, it is sown in corruption, it is raised (resurrected) in incorruption. It is important to realize that at the point of resurrection is also the point of being changed into a glorified body...This is different than any of the other resurrections outside of Jesus. People such as Lazarus was resurrected but eventually he died again, because he was not resurrected into an immortal body...at the resurrection of the saints at the Second Coming all the saints, both dead and living will be changed into immortal bodies.

So the phrase that Jesus is called 'The FIRST BEGOTTEN' from the dead illustrates this as does also the phrase the 'ONLY BEGOTTEN'  of the Father, as does also the phrase 'Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.'

The phrase 'Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee' is shown to be referring to the resurrection of Jesus and not to when he was begotten of Mary at his birth. Peter says:

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And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; (the resurrection, not his birth) as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Sister said:

We know that if we follow in Christ's footsteps we shall be raised incorruptible just like he was, this is our hope, and this is the resurrection of the just, but all are not raised equal as it says it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain.  This takes me back to the different vessels in God's kingdom, some of gold, silver, wood, stone, some for honour and some for dishonour.  Every one has to be raised at some point to answer for the things they have done in their body.

 

Yes. Everyone has to be raised at some point to answer for the things they have done in their body, as you said. This is what Paul said as well:

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For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The wording 'it may chance of wheat or some other grain,' is not meaning there will be varying types of bodies we will be resurrected in. It states our body will be 'like unto his glorious body,' and that we will 'be like the angels, being children of the resurrection. He is saying the analogy would apply to whatever type of grain that would be planted. Another translation makes this clear:

NLT -

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And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting.

And NIV -

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When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

Looking at the scripture you cited about vessels of gold and silver:

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But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

The great house is the church. The two people that were in the church he had just mentioned were Hymenaeus and Philetus. He said they had erred from the faith saying that the resurrection had already taken place. And we can see what resulted from this teaching was that they had overthrown the faith of some.

He is using them as an example of  being the vessels of dishonor. The fact that they had erred from the faith shows that at one time they were in the faith but had turned aside unto profane and vain babblings. The instructions given was we are to purge, or cleanse ourselves from these vessels of dishonor so we can be a vessel unto honor.

As Paul said in Timothy..."If any man teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words..we are to withdraw ourselves from such.'

He is not showing varying degrees of holiness ...there are only two categories..one is honorable and the other is dishonorable...he is describing those who are saints (the honorable) from those who are in error (the dishonorable).

2 hours ago, Sister said:

But the question is, are they all raised at at the same time?  Because we know now in the book of Revelation, that there are two resurrections.

Revelation 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

  Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Please give your thoughts about this.  We know that the end time saints mentioned above in verse 4 will not be the only ones in that resurrection, because many others who followed Christ will be in that same resurrection, but who are the dead who lived not until the thousand years were finished?

Most of the discussion about this subject will end up with pitting the resurrection in Daniel 12:3  against who the rest of the dead are in Rev. 20:5. It is because of the misunderstanding of who the rest of the dead are that has cause so many to insert time gaps and add and subtract from many of the texts that show both are resurrected at the same time.

We can see that both the wheat and the tares are to grow together until the harvest...and then at the end of this age both are resurrected, judged and rewarded. The tares are cast into the fire and the wheat are gathered into the barn. The problem is that the tares cannot be cast into the fire at the same time the wheat is rewarded if they are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

We can also see the sheep and the goats are all before the Lord at the Second coming. The goats are cast into everlasting fire at the same time the sheep enter into the kingdom. The problem is that the tares can not be cast into the fire at the same time the sheep inherit the kingdom if they are not resurrected until 1000 years later.

The same example goes with the good and bad fish. The net is only let down one time and is not drawn to shore until if full of both good and bad fish. It is then drawn to shore and the good are kept and the bad are cast away. But this cannot be if the bad fish are not resurrected until 1000 years later.

So as you rightly said those who reign with Christ for the 1000 years are not just the those who were killed during the tribulation, but pertains to all saints.

So the question gets back to who are the rest of the dead?  Jesus told Caiphas  he would see him when he comes in the clouds of heaven. So we know from this that he has to be first resurrected before he could see Jesus coming in the clouds.

At this time Caiphas is seeing Jesus, and by extension, all the wicked dead will see him,  for it  says 'every eye shall see, even those who pierced him.' This means both the living and the dead will see him when he comes. 

Caiphas sees Jesus coming with all the saints, so the saints have been resurrected. 

But where are they coming to? He is coming to Armageddon for the great supper where all the birds are gathered to eat the flesh of mighty men and captains who will shortly be killed.

 What does this mean? It means the wicked men who were slain on that very day were not in the resurrection of the wicked for they had been killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already taken place.

These killed at Armageddon are the rest of the dead that will not be resurrected until the 1000 years was finished. 

These are specifically mentioned in Isaiah :

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And it shall come to pass in that day, (The Second Coming) that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. ( all the kings that were  gathered together at Armageddon)

And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, (bottomless pit) and shall be shut up in the prison, (death and hell)  and and after many days (1000 years) shall they be visited (resurrected) 

 

So on the day the Lord returned all the wicked dead were resurrected. On this same day all the armies of the beast are also dead. The only dead ones on that day who were not resurrected were those slain at Armageddon, so these are the rest of the dead. And the reason they are in a different category that will be resurrected at another time is that they were killed AFTER the resurrection of both groups had already taken place. 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Only a remnant of national Israel will be saved.

That is what I was getting at...only 144,000...but he will fulfill his promise to this remnant

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I'm not so sure it's God that is doing the tormenting in this verse. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-5.htm

God is the one who gives them the power to do so:

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And I (God) will give power unto my two witnesses, (the two witnesses belong to God) 

The Gentile military is not prophesying and clothed in sackcloth for 42 month..it is two people:

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and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The Gentile Military is not the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the whole earth:

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These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The fire comes out of the mouths of the two witnesses, not the Gentile military:

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And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies:

They get their power from God, not Operation Popeye:

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These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

God gives them power to turn the water into blood and to smite the earth with all plagues...it is not the Gentile Military:

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and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

They are killed by the beast....The beast is not going to kill the Gentile military:

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And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The body of the Gentile Military is not going to lay dead in the street for 3. 5 days:

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And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The two witnesses are going to be killed and are resurrected, the Gentile Military is not going to be killed and  resurrected and ascend up to heaven:

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And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by transmogrified