Heb. 12:1 KJB - "so great a cloud of witnesses" - Heavenly unfallen angels or men of earth? The Bible says ...

[DignifiedResponse]

Heb. 12:1 KJB -  "so great a cloud of witnesses" - Heavenly unfallen angels or men of earth?  The Bible says:

Heb 12:1: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Well, there you have it, in context.  The answer is 'heavenly unfallen angels'.  Look closely now.  It's right there, in a single word, relating back to Hebrews 11:1-4.

Then just do a study on "cloud(s.)" in scripture.

Edited February 27, 2022 by DignifiedResponse
spelling

[In Him]

5 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

Heb. 12:1 KJB -  "so great a cloud of witnesses" - Heavenly unfallen angels or men of earth?  The Bible says:

Heb 12:1: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Well, there you have it, in context.  The answer is 'heavenly unfallen angels'.  Look closely now.  It's right there, in a single word, relating back to Hebrews 11:1-4.

Then just do a study in "cloud(s.)" in scripture.

Why couldn't the great cloud of witnesses be the saints on the other side who have gone on before us cheering us on in our race?

Just a sidenote: I learned from a brother recently that the book of Hebrews was written for Hebrews who had studied the Torah, so I keep that in mind every time I read it.

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...

Hebrews - Complete Jewish Bible - Read the Bible - StudyLight.org

Edited February 27, 2022 by In Him

[DignifiedResponse]

2 minutes ago, In Him said:

Why couldn't the great cloud of witnesses be the saints on the other side who have gone on before us cheering us on in our race?

Do you see that little word "also"?  If you do, go back to Hebrews 11:2,4 at least.

Heb 11:2: "For by it the elders obtained a good report."

Heb 11:4: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

When "Abel" "obtained witness", by whom was it from?

Remember, Heb. 12:1 said, "we also", which means Abel is included in being, "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses".

Heb 12:1: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Now, did you do a study on "clouds" in scripture?  How about the "Watcher"?

As for the latter point, have you read Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:13,15,19,35,39-40, 12:23?

[Selah7]

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

- Hebrews 12:1-3 (NKJV)

Paul is pointing out that there are a lot of witnesses who are willing to testify for the Lord. He compares the size of their gathering to a "cloud." Paul is comparing the ministry of all the saints' witnessing and doing the Lord’s work to a marathon race.  Those who claim the name of Christ are the runners in this race and Paul is encouraging us to put aside every burden and distraction that would keep us from finishing our race with endurance.  In chapter 11, we read about the faith of those who have gone before us; we are to have the same faith in these latter days and stand firm for the Lord.  

[DignifiedResponse]

I see.  My questions will just have to go unanswered, and the context I revealed unaccounted for and instead replaced with 'non scriptural commentary'.  If you are satisfied with your foundation, I shall never be content with such, and must continue to receive what is actually written in the word over personal ideologies in each instance. (Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13)

Please let me know when you want to address from scripture the "also", and the "clouds" in scripture.  Anything else is a poor use of my time and mental energy.

Thank you.

[OneLight]

I can see a few issues when someone tries to spiritualize scripture this way DR.  First, the word also is an inclusive term, which I'm sure you are aware of.  But who is being included?  Besides those who the author is addressing, the author includes the witnesses spoken of who may or may not be in their audience.  There were many people who watched those of "The Way" back in the time of this writing, so they could witness what they did to come to a personal conclusion or report back to someone or a group.  There were many who did this.  The author is using the term "cloud" as a metaphor for a crowd. 

Gnosticism was an issues in the early church when people started to look at scripture for such hidden meanings, sort of like what you are doing.  I see your question (and due to your wording -  your belief) that in order to understand what the author is saying, because the word cloud was used, it must mean a heavenly entity, like an angle.  

[missmuffet]

9 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

Heb. 12:1 KJB -  "so great a cloud of witnesses" - Heavenly unfallen angels or men of earth?  The Bible says:

Heb 12:1: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Well, there you have it, in context.  The answer is 'heavenly unfallen angels'.  Look closely now.  It's right there, in a single word, relating back to Hebrews 11:1-4.

Then just do a study on "cloud(s.)" in scripture.

The cloud of witnesses is the testamony of Saints who have died before us. Their unyielding faith bears witness to the promises of Jesus Christ. 

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

Heb. 12:1 KJB -  "so great a cloud of witnesses" - Heavenly unfallen angels or men of earth?  The Bible says:

Heb 12:1: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Well, there you have it, in context.  The answer is 'heavenly unfallen angels'.  Look closely now.  It's right there, in a single word, relating back to Hebrews 11:1-4.

Then just do a study on "cloud(s.)" in scripture.

What kind of an argument is this? 

Why even suggest that the Hebrews text of 12:1 which is making a reference to: "a cloud of witnesses" that in the writers mind when he put down "a cloud of witnesses" that he had in his mind " unfallen Angels" without specifying what are "unfallen Angels".

Do you call "unfallen Angels" all these people mention on chapter 11 beginning with Abel till Abraham and of course could be others not known to the  Hebrews Rabbi which he did not know.

But the point is made that they were people before and outside of Abraham who were Godly people. 

And then we have Abraham and Sarah and Issac and Jacob and Josef and then we have Moses and the Israelites with the Law...

Which one time the Hebrew  Rabbi once was before he believe in Jesus Christ. 

And at the time of this letter he is speaking as a believer in Jesus Christ. 

And this is what he said that they had to wait to be perfect at the same time as us.

So we all are being made perfect in Jesus Christ after the death of Jesus Christ. 

We are made perfect because we believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. 

They too had to believe the same thing after the fact of the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. 

So they can be heirs of the Heavenly Inheritance.  

This is what they were looking forwards to a Heavenly Inheritance, which only was made possible with the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross and requires faith in Jesus Christ after the fact of his death on the Cross. 

The last verse in ch.11: 

TO BE MADE PERFECT AT THE SAME TIME WITH US 

The time to recieved their Heavenly Inheritance could not come before the death of Jesus Christ only after when Jesus Christ inherited Heaven. 

They Hebrew's Rabbi believed that the all those he mentions in ch.11 and all the others they believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ when the Gospel was preached to them after the fact of the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. 

So they were made perfect in the same way we are made perfect when we believe Jesus Christ and our sins are forgiven and we are given the perfect representation of Jesus Christ, which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[AdHoc]

On 2/27/2022 at 12:47 PM, DignifiedResponse said:

I see.  My questions will just have to go unanswered, and the context I revealed unaccounted for and instead replaced with 'non scriptural commentary'.  If you are satisfied with your foundation, I shall never be content with such, and must continue to receive what is actually written in the word over personal ideologies in each instance. (Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13)

Please let me know when you want to address from scripture the "also", and the "clouds" in scripture.  Anything else is a poor use of my time and mental energy.

Thank you.

I do differ with your understanding, but also do admit you have thoughtfully studied the matter. Here is my argument.

The two key words are "cloud" and "witnesses". Chapter 12 verse 1 starts with "wherefore". This joins it to what went before. And what went before in Chapter 11 is a crowd of faithful people who faced death for their faith. Thus, the "cloud" of witnesses are those who were martyred but have not yet received the inheritance because they have to wait for us to run our race. We are to be part of this cloud. But why is it called a "cloud" of Witnesses? The answer lies in their ORIGIN and NATURE. In Chapter 3 verse 1 the once Jews whom the Book addresses are those of the "heavenly calling". This is important because Abraham, father of the faithful, was promised TWO seeds (plural). (i) Seed as the sand of the sea-shore - that is, OF EARTH with earthly benefits and earthly nature, and (ii) seed (plural) who are as the stars of heaven - that is, heavenly in calling, origin and nature. It would have been obscure to have called them by an earthly designation, such as "crowd" or "flock". It would have detracted from their status.

Then we come to the word "Witnesses". The Greek is the word we also use for "martyrs". But the sense of the word in Greek is; "one who was present and saw what happened and will testify truthfully at all cost - even their life". The "witnesses" are men and women who have traveled a road in life and seen and experienced things. They have run their race and now sit in the Olympic Stadium to watch and encourage us who still have to run our race. The Olympic Stadiums were oval or round, thus we are "encompassed" by them.

The cloud is "they" (11:37) who have run, and wait for the inheritance, while "we" and "us" of 12:1 are yet to complete our course. The "cloud of witnesses" (who have already run a course we have to run) are to spur us on. Others have done it - so can you. But our view is of Christ, the Chiefest of runners, the One who, having run His race to well, sits ABOVE the cloud of Witnesses "above all heavens" (Eph.4:8-9). From Him we have both our example and strength. From the "cloud of witnesses" we have the witness that weak men can complete the course.

Finally, 11:40 should seal the argument. "They" have run, and must wait until "we" JOIN THEM. They must be men, for angels have not run the course of martyrdom - but we must be willing to go this way.

[Jayne]

The witnesses are not dead saints watching us and/or "cheering us on".  

The witnesses are the men and women of chapter 11.  They are witnesses TO us, not OF us.

Dead brothers and sisters in Christ CANNOT see us and our sin, struggles, pains, abuses, and torments here.  They would be terribly said, upset, and would be shedding many tears.