Two questions for pretribulationists

[JoeCanada]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Aaahhhh! "The Church"? But the Bible, in each case, pointedly does not call them that. It may be termed semantics, but "saints" who must pass through the "Tribulation" seems more correct than Church.

Let's call them what they are. 

The "church".... the "ekklesia"...... is made up of believers in Jesus. They are also referred to as:

bondservants

saints

believers

the bride of Christ

the faithful

the elect of God

the beloved of God

Did I miss any?....maybe

Whatever the case, we will go thru the tribulation, but we will be rescued from the Wrath of God. The tribulation, the 3 1/2 years... not 7,  is cut short for the sake of the elect of God. 

AFTER the tribulation of those days..... then begins the Wrath of God., which lasts for a year and 10 days.....

"AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH".... learn this. How long were the days of the flood? One year and ten days. That was God's wrath on those who dwell on the earth, the ungodly.

The flood did not take anyone away except for those on the Ark. They were taken above the flood waters. The rest were drowned IN the flood waters, not taken away. 

That's my take

[AdHoc]

15 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Let's call them what they are. 

The "church".... the "ekklesia"...... is made up of believers in Jesus. They are also referred to as:

bondservants

saints

believers

the bride of Christ

the faithful

the elect of God

the beloved of God

Did I miss any?....maybe

Whatever the case, we will go thru the tribulation, but we will be rescued from the Wrath of God. The tribulation, the 3 1/2 years... not 7,  is cut short for the sake of the elect of God. 

AFTER the tribulation of those days..... then begins the Wrath of God., which lasts for a year and 10 days.....

"AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH".... learn this. How long were the days of the flood? One year and ten days. That was God's wrath on those who dwell on the earth, the ungodly.

The flood did not take anyone away except for those on the Ark. They were taken above the flood waters. The rest were drowned IN the flood waters, not taken away. 

That's my take

Thank you. I've read and noted your reply.

Go well bro.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Rev 5:9-10 is an unfortunate error made by translators of the KJV,NKJV, WEB, YLT.

The majority of translations....NLT, ESV, CSB, NASB95, NASB20, NET, RSV, ASV, DBY, HNV.....say: 

You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slaughtered,

and you purchased[fn] people[fn]

for God by your blood

from every tribe and language

and people and nation.

You made them a kingdom[fn]

and priests to our God,

and they will reign on the earth

Is it a mistranslation that these 24 elders have crowns, which we know are rewards?

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Jesus says He brings His rewards when He comes.

Rev 22

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

It would appear that Jesus has come and given rewards to the 24 elders. Which means it appears that Jesus has come. 

The fig tree has two harvests.

[WilliamL]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:20 PM, AdHoc said:

In Revelation 7 the Beast is introduced and allowed to reign 42 months. During this time it is given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them (13:7). How so if the rapture has occurred?

Correction, his "mouth" is given to reign 42 months. 13:5

As far as the saints the Beast kills: there will be post-Rapture saints on earth, including the 144,000. Because when Jesus appears in the clouds, "and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him," then many will be come to faith in him, as we are told in Heb. 12:10.

On 12/13/2021 at 3:20 PM, AdHoc said:

As for Daniel's 70th week being complete, how is it possible when the sequence of Matthew 24 is (verse 15) WHEN you see the abomination of desolation, flee ... (verse 21) THEN shall be tribulation as never before .... (verse 29) IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of THOSE days ... (verse 30) THEN shall the Son of man appear. The grammar indicates these events being IMMEDIATELY SEQUENTIAL.

"The abomination of desolation" is a term from Daniel 12:11 (an End Time prophecy), not Daniel 9:27 (a prophecy about the fall of the Aaronic priesthood Temple). The Hebrew therein does not use that term, despite what your Bible may say.

On 12/13/2021 at 3:20 PM, AdHoc said:

The daily oblation spoken of in Daniel was to be offered at God's dwelling place (Ex.29). The Temple must be standing for this. But Daniel designates the prince WHO IS TO COME as a prince of the people who destroyed the Temple. Now, when Daniel was in Babylon, Solomon's Temple had already been destroyed, so the "people who destroyed the Temple" must be Romans and the Temple that of Zerubbabel. So which Temple is standing for Daniel 9:27?

The literal Hebrew says in verse 26,

…וְהָעִיר/and the city וְהַקֹּדֶשׁ/and the sanctuary/holy place יַשְׁחִית/he shall cause to ruin/destroy [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] עַם/people נָגִיד/of a leader/commander הַבָּא/the one coming in [Qal Active Participle ms with ה prefix]…

“…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary.” …

The commander "coming in" (to Israel) was Vespasian, whose people destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. That Jerusalem Temple, with the Aaronic blood sacrifices etc., is what Daniel 9:27 was prophesying about. Which prophecy has been fulfilled. \

But the prophecy of Daniel 12:11, which Jesus quoted, has not yet been fulfilled. As that prophecy say nothing about blood sacrifices.

Daniel 9:26 and 9:27 are fully translated and explained here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1592-daniel-924-27-examined-part-4-verse-26/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

[WilliamL]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:05 PM, The Light said:

Can you tell me where these things were fulfilled?

Dan:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This is an incorrect translation. But this verse, when properly translated, foretell what Christ accomplished during His first coming, His resurrection, and His ascension to heaven to atone for sins. And thereafter, the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple due to the apostasy/pesha of the Aaronic priesthood.

The following is a quote from https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

" Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

God provided this prophecy via Daniel to Jews living under the Law of Moses. Nothing in verse 24 makes any reference to the Church or to the End Times. "

 

[truth7t7]

31 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This is an incorrect translation. But this verse, when properly translated, foretell what Christ accomplished during His first coming, His resurrection, and His ascension to heaven to atone for sins. And thereafter, the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple due to the apostasy/pesha of the Aaronic priesthood.

The following is a quote from https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

" Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

God provided this prophecy via Daniel to Jews living under the Law of Moses. Nothing in verse 24 makes any reference to the Church or to the End Times. "

 

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred ninety years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.

When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off as Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[WilliamL]

15 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

If you check the Hebrew, you will see that this is literally "three sevens days."

Whereas the word "days" is NOT found in after the use of "sevens" in Daniel 9:24-27.

So you are equating apples with oranges.

[truth7t7]

7 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

If you check the Hebrew, you will see that this is literally "three sevens days."

Whereas the word "days" is NOT found in after the use of "sevens" in Daniel 9:24-27.

So you are equating apples with oranges.

We will disagree, if Daniel meant 70 weeks to mean 490 years he would have written 

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

We will disagree, if Daniel meant 70 weeks to mean 490 years he would have written 

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

But Gabriel (not Daniel) did not say weeks, he said "sevens."

Calling them "weeks" is your presumption. But history provides the evidence to determine what was actually meant: seven 360-day prophetic "times."

[truth7t7]

28 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

But Gabriel (not Daniel) did not say weeks, he said "sevens."

Calling them "weeks" is your presumption. But history provides the evidence to determine what was actually meant: seven 360-day prophetic "times."

We disagree, the KJV translation committee, 60 christian scholars would declare otherwise

(Seventy Weeks) not (Four Hundred Ninety Years)

I fully agree it's seventy sevens, and seven days equals one week

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by truth7t7