Israel, the Church, an the Parable of the Olive Tree

[not an echo]

Hello all,

It has been with a degree of reluctance that I am (for the second day in a roll) starting another thread, as I haven't had the time I would like to spend with the threads I have already started.  But, I have hopes that this will not only be of a help to others, but also to me, as I will now be able to give a link to this thread when discussions in my other threads stray in this direction---possibly affording me some more time in the long run and helping to keep other threads more on track.

Concerning the thread title, I want to put forth for everyone's consideration some thoughts I have concerning distinctions I see between the Nation of Israel and the Christian Church, especially as these distinctions are clarified by Paul's Parable of the Olive Tree (Rom. 11:16-24)

To begin, in the Bible, there is seen a sense in which a nation can be thought of as a church, and a church can be thought of as a nation.  On the one hand, Stephen referred to those of the Nation of Israel as "the Church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38).  On the other hand, Peter referred to those of the Christian Church as "an Holy Nation" (I Pet. 2:9).

With this in mind, foundation wise, when we open the Bible, we find immediately that something stands out.  There is what is referred to as the Old Testament, and there is what is referred to as the New Testament.  Further, we know that in the Old Testament, the Nation of Israel stands out, and in the New Testament, the Christian Church stands out.  But, something equally important actually precedes what is meant by either of these testaments and that is a covenant that God made with Abraham---a covenant commonly referred to as the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is a covenant that God made with Abraham way back in Genesis chapter 12, when God said the following to him:

  1   Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

  2   And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great;  and thou shalt be a blessing:

  3   And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:  and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Later, God reinforces to Abraham concerning His Covenant with him.  In Genesis 22 we read,

 15  And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of Heaven the second time,

 16  And said, By Myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

 17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;  and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

 18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;  because thou hast obeyed My voice.

I must say, that that there is a promise!  Now, think of this Covenant as the root the Olive Tree that Paul spoke about in his parable (again, Rom. 11:16-24).  We see the beginning of the growth of this Olive Tree with Abraham, continuing through Isaac and then Jacob, into the early formation of the 12 limbs (or tribes) that later sprouted forth from the trunk (Isaac, then Jacob).  These 12 limbs (Jacob's sons), flourished into the tree of the Israelite Nation, if you will.  And, did it ever flourish!

In time, however, something happened, which was not necessarily a bad thing (in the bigger picture of things), but a needful thing.  God had to prune His Olive Tree, and to an extent that it became only a remnant of what it had been.  Have you ever seen a fruit tree before, and then after it was pruned?  The first time I ever did this to the apple tree that I had planted for my son when he was born (almost 30 years ago), my wife thought it would die!  But, it didn't.  Yet, the pruning that I did, did change the shape of things.  Annnyway, God pruned His Olive Tree (which also changed the shape of things), and He also did some grafting.  Twelve grafts actually (the 12 Apostles).  Jewish in origin, but all Christian in character.  And, all drawing nourishment from the root of the Abrahamic Covenant and the tree that it had become.

When I think of the Israelite Nation, I think of the older, bigger, branches (that used to be little limbs) of God's Olive Tree.  When I think of the Christian Church, I think of the later grafts, or those newer limbs.  And the fruit?  I don't know much about olive trees.  And I never took a liking to olives.  Yuck!  But, I do know a little about other fruit trees I grew up around.  My step-grandfather had a big orchard.  Both he and it are gone now, and have been for years.  But, I do have three fruit trees...and a grapevine!  Although I haven't done any grafting myself, I know that I could graft a Honeycrisp limb into my Red Delicious tree and my Red Delicious tree would begin to produce both Red Delicious and Honeycrisp apples.  Now, a Honeycrisp is not a Red Delicious, BUT IT IS AN APPLE.  And, there are distinctions between the two that can easily be made.  Interestingly, I could prune and do grafting work on my Red Delicious tree such that it wouldn't even produce Red Delicious apples any more, but only Honeycrisps.  Or, Fujis, or Galas, or whatever I want, as long as I use apple tree limbs (or scions).  I could even cut off one of the Red Delicious limbs and graft it back in somewhere else on the same tree.  Or, if I wanted to and had time to play, I could have one apple tree bearing 10 different kinds of apples (or more)---all depending on the kinds of limbs that I use.  One thing that is not going to happen though is this:  A Red Delicious limb is never going to produce for me another variety of apple.  It knows what it's supposed to make.  Same with a Gala limb.  Same with a Golden Delicious limb.  Same with any limb.  That's just the way our Father set things up.  Isn't it neat!

I've said much of the foregoing to say this:  There are distinctions to be made between the Nation of Israel and the Christian Church.  Moreover, in God's eyes, spiritually speaking, all that say they are of Israel are not (e.g., Rom. 2:28-29;  9:6-8), and all that say they are of the Church are not (e.g., II Cor. 11:13-15;  II Pet. 2:1-3).  Succinctly, some out there are bad apples.  But the good apples?  It don't matter a bit if they are Honey Crisps, Galas, Granny Smiths, or whatever---THEY ARE ALL APPLES!

Finally, God has not forgot those old natural branches of His Olive Tree.  He certainly hasn't forgot the trunk and root (His promise to Abraham).  One of these days, He's going to make a sweeping and far reaching harvest of what has come forth of the 12 New Testament grafts (the Church), and then, He's got special plans for that ole tree.  What can the Lord do with an old tree and all the bushels it has produced?  One of these days He's gonna show us, right here on this earth---for a thousand years!  Hey, and it's gonna be better than Grandma's homemade apple pie, with ice cream on top!!!

I know an article like this can get all unraveled and in a tangle.  I hope the major points don't end up being missed because of a harboring on the minors.  I have enjoyed working it up.  Hope that all in the forum family (and our guests) enjoy it as well. 

For those who may be interested, these thoughts also relate to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is the link to my master thread by that name, which also gives links to all the other threads that I have started so far, which pertain to this subject.  Some of these threads have now gotten quite long.  My encouragement would be to at least read my opening post(s) of each thread.  Further, I am not finished responding in any of my threads.  But, I am often limited on time.

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/)

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo
add link

[not an echo]

(Reserved)

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

(Reserved)

1Pe 1:3-5  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  (4)  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,  (5)  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Seems applicable.

[Keras]

Good article; not an echo.  God will keep His Promises to the Patriarchs, to those people who display the faith of Abraham. Actual descent is no longer relevant, as in over 50 generations, everyone on earth has some of Abrahams genes. 

 

“Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you…,” so the old children’s song goes. Although it’s a silly song that requires the raising of arms, legs, and the nodding of heads, the song’s theology is unquestionably biblical.

In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all.  Galatians 3:26-29

 

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness.  Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people.  Romans 2:28–29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14

 

Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God.

 

[not an echo]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:57 AM, Michael37 said:

On 8/10/2021 at 7:58 PM, not an echo said:

(Reserved)

1Pe 1:3-5  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  (4)  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,  (5)  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Seems applicable.

Hey Michael,

I certainly like those reservations!

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

Israel, the Church, an the Parable of the Olive Tree

Jesus said:

• Mat 24:32  -> Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

We know that Jesus cursed the fig tree (Mat 21:18-20). What is this fig tree and what represent its restauration?

[not an echo]

On 8/11/2021 at 4:44 AM, Keras said:

Good article; not an echo.  God will keep His Promises to the Patriarchs, to those people who display the faith of Abraham. Actual descent is no longer relevant, as in over 50 generations, everyone on earth has some of Abrahams genes. 

 

“Father Abraham had many sons, many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you…,” so the old children’s song goes. Although it’s a silly song that requires the raising of arms, legs, and the nodding of heads, the song’s theology is unquestionably biblical.

In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all.  Galatians 3:26-29

 

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness.  Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people.  Romans 2:28–29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14

 

Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God.

Thanks Keras, I enjoyed working it up.  I can also appreciate your words.

[not an echo]

On 8/15/2021 at 12:46 PM, Leonardo Von said:

Quote

Israel, the Church, an the Parable of the Olive Tree

Jesus said:

• Mat 24:32  -> Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

We know that Jesus cursed the fig tree (Mat 21:18-20). What is this fig tree and what represent its restauration?

Hello Leonardo,

The fig tree deserves a thread all its own!  But, this one time I will here point out just a couple of things of note to me, lest I be a party to derailing my own thread!  Jesus was at this time (Matt. 21:18-20) returning to Jerusalem, after He had made His Triumphal Entry into it the day before---the week He was to be crucified.  All very interesting.  At the time that He cursed the fig tree, it's certainly not hard to imagine Him having Israel and Jerusalem on His mind and His desire to find something there that He was not finding.  I think of what God had said of Jerusalem in I Kings 11:36 (and other places) concerning it being "the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there."  Interestingly, when the disciples "marvelled" over the withering of the fig tree, Jesus talked to them about the power of faith (Matt. 21:21-22), which His people, of all people, were renowned for having a lack of.

Relating to Matthew 24:32, consider what Luke's parallel account of what Jesus said reads (and what I've highlighted), as recorded in chapter 21:

 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;  for your redemption draweth nigh.

 29  And He spake to them a parable;  Behold the fig tree, AND ALL TREES;

 30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

 31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

In light of both of the above accounts, Jesus' words reveal that what He was wanting them to understand related to something that was characteristic of all trees, not just the fig tree.  A little something to remember that I think is often overlooked.  Again, the fig tree deserves a thread all its own.

Edited August 18, 2021 by not an echo

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Leonardo,

The fig tree deserves a thread all its own!  But, this one time I will here point out just a couple of things of note to me, lest I be a party to derailing my own thread!  Jesus was at this time (Matt. 21:18-20) returning to Jerusalem, after He had made His Triumphal Entry into it the day before---the week He was to be crucified.  All very interesting.  At the time that He cursed the fig tree, it's certainly not hard to imagine Him having Israel and Jerusalem on His mind and His desire to find something there that He was not finding.  I think of what God had said of Jerusalem in I Kings 11:36 (and other places) concerning it being "the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there."  Interestingly, when the disciples "marvelled" over the withering of the fig tree, Jesus talked to them about the power of faith (Matt. 21:21-22), which His people, of all people, were renowned for having a lack of.

Relating to Matthew 24:32, consider what Luke's parallel account of what Jesus said reads (and what I've highlighted), as recorded in chapter 21:

 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;  for your redemption draweth nigh.

 29  And He spake to them a parable;  Behold the fig tree, AND ALL TREES;

 30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

 31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

In light of both of the above accounts, Jesus' words reveal that what He was wanting them to understand related to something that was characteristic of all trees, not just the fig tree.  A little something to remember that I think is often overlooked.  Again, the fig tree deserves a thread all its own.

I read the OP and didn't see the conclusion. What's the Thesis? 

" At the time that He cursed the fig tree, it's certainly not hard to imagine Him having Israel and Jerusalem on His mind and His desire to find something there that He was not finding."

Yeah, like figs. And maybe thinking, "Gee, I'm really hungry." Then getting stood up by a mere tree and thinking, "That's it! You're done." Then thinking, "I gotta find some food."

This isn't even speculation

"In the morning, as Jesus was returning to the city, He was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. “May you never bear fruit again!” He said. And immediately the tree withered."

We don't have to guess what He was thinking, nor do we need to imagine it. 

 

 

[Kelly2363]

30 minutes ago, Diaste said:

"In the morning, as Jesus was returning to the city, He was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. “May you never bear fruit again!” He said. And immediately the tree withered."

What bible version is that?