Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

In Matthew 24:37, "the days of Noe" specifically refers to "the days that were before the flood..." v.38.  Here, Jesus is drawing a comparison with how people behaved in the days before the flood to how people will be behaving in the days just before Jesus returns.  

In Noah's day, God's wrath likely killed everyone in the firsr hour, even though the text first mentions the fact that every living thing on dry land died within the first 40 days. (Gen. 7:17-23). 

4 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

 

Sure, but it is not 'just' the days that were before the flood. 

Keep reading... "and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away"

The 'flood came' is not just a single day event. It torrentially rained for 40 days and nights ..... and the waters  prevailed for many many months.

They all died in the first hour??? Ok, now I know you are throwing some humor into this conversation.

4 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

So, the wrath of God was not one year long, because the effects of God's wrath were immediate upon those whom God judged. 

Jesus is comparing His coming to the "days of Noah"

You know from Revelation that the 5th Trumpet judgment is 5 months long, right?

God's wrath is at least 5 months long.... there are 6 more Trumpet judgments and 7 Bowl judgments..... the effects of God's wrath is not immediate during His judgment of the Trumpet and Bowls, and neither was it immediate during His judgment in the days of Noah. 

Do you think that the flood covered over the peaks of the highest mountains, drowning all that lived, in the first hour as you said?

So, you tell us ... How long was God's wrath? ..... His wrath against all that He created because it had been corrupted, except for the inhabitants of the ark, ..... Using scripture .... How long?

 

[BornAgain490]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

So you think that it was Israels disobedience and utter failure..............as the reason God came in the flesh?

God knew Israel would fail to be a light to the nations, which is why the True Light - Jesus Christ - God in flesh, came.  Jesus came as God's suffering servant, He came to perfect the will of God, He came to be a perfect sinless sacrifice to die a sinners death to absorb the wrath of God on our behalf, to be a ransom for many, to draw the nations to Himself through faith in Him,  in who He is and in all He's done, in His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

So you can chatter on and on about the Gentiles being first

I never said Gentiles were first, but I guess Gentiles are first, since neither Seth, nor Enoch, nor Noah, nor Shem, nor Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob,  nor anyone that came before Jacob who had faith in the promised Seed, were Jews, they were all Gentiles. 

There's only one harvest, though, because there is only one body - the BODY OF CHRIST, which is what Paul calls the ISRAEL OF GOD. 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:22 AM by BornAgain490

[BornAgain490]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The 'flood came' is not just a single day event. It torrentially rained for 40 days and nights ..... and the waters  prevailed for many many months.

It didn't just rain, and yes, the flood came and killed everyone on the first day. 

Genesis 7:10-12 "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. ... the same days were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."  

All that water from under the deep, and all water from the firmament of the heaven above the earth was unleashed by God, which created a violent and sudden catastrophic flooding event that no one could survive, and no one did survive.  It was so massive, so violent, so sudden, that it even changed the geological topography of the entire world.  It was worse than all the tsunamis and all the flooding of Katrina, Helene and all the hurricanes combined throughout history.

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You know from Revelation

Revelation is full if symbolism. 

 

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So, you tell us ... How long was God's wrath? ..... His wrath against all that He created because it had been corrupted, except for the inhabitants of the ark, ..... Using scripture .... How long?

God's wrath was poured out when He flooded the earth, and His wrath was perfected when all that He had repented of creating were dead, which happened on the first day. 

Why God flooded the earth for 150 days after He had killed all that He intended to kill, God only knows. 

What we do know is that God stopped the waters from heaven, restrained the rain, stopped the waters of the deep, and the waters returned to from off the earth until the ark rested on the mount, and some time after God told Noah to "Go forth of the ark."  

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

21 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You know from Revelation

Revelation is full if symbolism. 

With a wave of the hand, Revelation is discounted to mere symbolism.

 

19 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

His wrath was perfected when all that He had repented of creating were dead, which happened on the first day. 

Really!!!

Wow .... I never knew that.

19 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Why God flooded the earth for 150 days after He had killed all that He intended to kill, God only knows. 

I guess that His wrath lasts more than just a day..... just like we see in 'symbolic' revelation.

 

[BornAgain490]

33 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

With a wave of the hand, Revelation is discounted to mere symbolism.

I did not say that.

Symbolism in the Bible is as important and meaningful as all writing genres found in the Bible. 

[BornAgain490]

41 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I guess that His wrath lasts more than just a day..... just like we see in 'symbolic' revelation.

As the Bible says,  which I included in a prior post, God's wrath is revealed from heaven every day against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. (Romans 1:18).  

The "day" of the Lord does not literally mean one day,  and the "year" of recompenses does not refer to a literal period of 360 days; these are figures of speech.  Just as the 144,000 in Revelation figuratively and symbolically refers to a great number no one can count, and the five months in Rev. 9 is likewise figurative and symbolic of eternal condemnation for all that are not in Christ. 

Edited 8 hours ago by BornAgain490

[The Light]

21 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

God knew Israel would fail to be a light to the nations, which is why the True Light - Jesus Christ - God in flesh, came.  Jesus came as God's suffering servant, He came to perfect the will of God, He came to be a perfect sinless sacrifice to die a sinners death to absorb the wrath of God on our behalf, to be a ransom for many, to draw the nations to Himself through faith in Him,  in who He is and in all He's done, in His death, burial, and resurrection.

Do you think Adam was symbolic as you seem to discount where the fall of man began?

21 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

I never said Gentiles were first, but I guess Gentiles are first, 

Really? Here is your quote where you say the Gentiles were not "Plan B" That would make them Plan A which would be first.

And you said God planned on the Gentiles being targeted from the beginning. This means you think that the Gentiles were plan A from the beginning.

I posted scripture that shows Israel..........the Jews, were Gods plan from the beginning, meaning the first harvest and the Gentiles were to be the second harvest as the fig tree has two harvest.

You can only make empty claims as there is no scripture that says differently. 

"Neither were Gentiles nor the church God's "Plan B".  Gentiles were God's targeted people from the beginning, and Israel was the instrument chosen by God by which God would draw the Gentile nations of the world unto Himself."

21 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

There's only one harvest, though, because there is only one body - the BODY OF CHRIST, which is what Paul calls the ISRAEL OF GOD. 

 

Bad logic. It's two folds into one fold which is the Israel of God.

The first fold is the Gentiles as they see Jesus as the Messiah. THEN blindness will be removed from part of Israel.

[BornAgain490]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Really? Here is your quote where you say the Gentiles were not "Plan B" That would make them Plan A which would be first.

You can call Gentiles Plan A if you like.   But I prefer to say God chose/purposed Israel to be His holy instrument to be a light by which it would draw Gentiles out of darkness, away from idol worship, and into faith in God.  

The teaching that the Gentile church, was God's Plan B is a false dispensational teaching which posits that Jesus came only to save the Jews. This false teaching argues further that, since the Jews rejected Jesus, God turned His attention to the Gentiles to establish a "Gentile church." 

As I've argued before, not only here but in live discussions with dispensational teachers, this 'Plan B' argument is unbiblical to say the least. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Do you think Adam was symbolic

No. 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

And you said God planned on the Gentiles being targeted from the beginning.

God did target Gentiles from the beginning: Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and everyone prior to Jacob who had faith in God and in God's promised Seed, were all Gentiles.  God then chose the nation of Israel to be a priestly nation and a light to the Gentile nations. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I posted scripture that shows Israel..........the Jews, were Gods plan from the beginning,

God did have Israel in His plan of redemption, but not just to redeem Israelis, but to be a priestly nation and a light to draw the Gentile nations to God. God's plan was to save as many as in the world that would have faith, and God purposed Israel as His instrument to draw the nations to Himself. 

 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

It's two folds into one fold which is the Israel of God.

It's one fold when the two are joined, and scripture clearly states it is one.  Just as when you take two groups of olives from two different olive trees from two different lands, and crush them in one vat to get the oil from them to make one bottle of oil.  Of course, Paul uses the olive tree analogy, where Jews are cut off and Gentiles are grafted in to the one olive tree. 

Yes, the Israel of God is the total sum of all believing Jews and all believing Gentiles. 

1 hour ago, The Light said:

THEN blindness will be removed from part of Israel

Blindness in part is permanent, it stays. Blindness in part means that there are some Jews that will never believe.  That is what "I part" means.   

The phrase "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" refers to the completed sum total of the Israel of God, i.e., all faithful Jews and all faithful Gentiles.  When that occurs, the blinded Jews remain blinded and lost with the lost Gentiles. 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

You can call Gentiles Plan A if you like.   But I prefer to say God chose/purposed Israel to be His holy instrument to be a light by which it would draw Gentiles out of darkness, away from idol worship, and into faith in God. 

No. I'm not saying the Gentiles were plan A.

Israel was supposed to be the 1st harvest but they served Baalpeor. Because of that the Gentiles will be the 1st harvest........hence the pretribulation rapture.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The teaching that the Gentile church, was God's Plan B is a false dispensational teaching which posits that Jesus came only to save the Jews.

The fig tree has two harvests just like the Word says. 

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

This false teaching argues further that, since the Jews rejected Jesus, God turned His attention to the Gentiles to establish a "Gentile church." 

You seem to lack a basic understanding of God's plan. It's all in the Word so no need to draw false conclusions.

Matthew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

As I've argued before, not only here but in live discussions with dispensational teachers, this 'Plan B' argument is unbiblical to say the least. 

Stange, you have no scripture to support your argument. It is unscriptural and just an opinion with support.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

God did target Gentiles from the beginning: Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and everyone prior to Jacob who had faith in God and in God's promised Seed, were all Gentiles.  God then chose the nation of Israel to be a priestly nation and a light to the Gentile nations. 

Well, you understand that. Good.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

God did have Israel in His plan of redemption, but not just to redeem Israelis, but to be a priestly nation and a light to draw the Gentile nations to God. God's plan was to save as many as in the world that would have faith, and God purposed Israel as His instrument to draw the nations to Himself. 

And yet Israel was found a grapes in the wilderness.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

It's one fold when the two are joined, and scripture clearly states it is one.

Awesome. You got it. The Gentiles are the 1st fold, pretrib rapture, and the Jews are the second fold, prewrath rapture. Two folds into one fold

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Yes, the Israel of God is the total sum of all believing Jews and all believing Gentiles. 

Exactly. Now you are getting it. Gentile Pretrib rapture, 1st fold, 12 tribe prewrath rapture, 2nd fold. Both folds become one fold..........The Israel of God.

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Blindness in part is permanent, it stays. Blindness in part means that there are some Jews that will never believe.  That is what "I part" means. 

Well, what it really means is that blindness will be removed from the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. They will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. They are the 1st fruits of the harvest that takes place at the 6th seal.

As for the woman, Israel, their blindness is not removed. Those that flee when the AOD is set up will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection. 

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

 

The phrase "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" refers to the completed sum total of the Israel of God, i.e., all faithful Jews and all faithful Gentiles.  When that occurs, the blinded Jews remain blinded and lost with the lost Gentiles. 

Not logical. How can blindness be removed from part of Israel so they can see if all of the Jews and Gentiles are saved before the blindness can be removed?

Totally illogical, and unscriptural.