Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[The Light]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The order is Christ the first to rise then after him they that are christs at his coming..

No. The order is first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

Christ is the first fruits of them that sleep. When Christ comes for the dead in Christ they will rise and return with Him to heaven.

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

all saints were given to Christ so this would mean all the saints from all time would be raised at his coming..

The dead in Christ rise first. Are those before the flood in Christ? Did they have a choice to accept or reject Jesus as Messiah?

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

fulfilling what Paul we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump.. it has to fit all three criteria -all must be changed, all must be changed at the last trump and all will be changed in a moment in the twinkle of an eye .. not some saints changed at one time some other saints at another time..no.. 

How can what you are saying possibly be true if the dead in Christ rise first? Then the alive believers that remained are changed when He comes for us.

Then God turns His attention to the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. At the 6th seal coming of Jesus, at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the dead and alive are changed together.

You seem to want skip all the details in scripture.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

All the saints will come back with Jesus from heaven..

Agreed

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

how do The OT saints and Trib saints get up to heaven because they are not included in the pre trib rapture. . Pre trib only has them resurrected at the end but there is no ascension so it is impossible for all the saints to come back according to pre trib… Zech and Paul said when the Lord returns all the saints will come with him.. It’s impossible for that to happen in a pre trib scenario

The Lord Himself comes for His bride the Church before the seals are opened. That is the pretribulation rapture.

When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in God turns His attention to the part of Israel.

Then immediately after the tribulation, the Lord returns to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal. These all return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

That is why you see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper.

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

In conclusion, there are two raptures, one for the Church and one for the 12 tribes. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes as they are the first fruits of the second harvest. This second harvest will occur when Christ returns at the 6th seal as...........they are Christs at His coming but were not believers when Christ came for the Church.

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

In conclusion, there are two raptures, one for the Church and one for the 12 tribes

First of you never have answered how it is that even with two raptures all the saints can not come back with Jesus at the second coming.. The OT saints are not raptured nor the trib saints according to pre trib..so they aren’t up in heaven to return with Jesus.. It’s not just saints from Pentecost till before the tribulation that come back with him .. the bride consists of both old and New Testament saints so in pre trib all the saints CANNOT come back with him .. trib saints have not even died yet and the pre trib resurrection has allegedly taken place.. you can’t resurrect and rapture trib saints before they even die.. that is what resurrection is - people who have died brought back to life- so pre trib is contrary to both  and Paul and Zech who said when the lord comes all the saints will be with him.. CANNOT  work according to pre trib

[garee]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I've already explained that Jesus is NOT anyone's brother in the Lord.  Jesus IS IS IS the Lord.  Are you not able to understand this?

Sorry I have given you the references. How many do you need to believe God?

Jesus the son of man the lord (small case l) is not our one good teaching Master .

Not the one Lord the Creator . God  is the Lord of earthly lords. . the Father not seen of earthly fathers,  King of kings. 

God is not a creation made form the rudiments of this world  no matter how many times you desire he was created. 

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, garee said:

Sorry I have given you the references. How many do you need to believe God?

How about any that support your claims?  So far, you haven't.  And don't worry about what I believe.  

12 minutes ago, garee said:

Jesus the son of man the lord (small case l) is not our one good teaching Master .

It appears you don't know what you are talking about.  Saying "small case lord" is pathetic.  Let me show you what the Bible says.

Rev 17:14 - They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings —and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Rev 19:16 - On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

12 minutes ago, garee said:

Not the one Lord the Creator . God  is the Lord of earthly lords. . the Father not seen of earthly fathers,  King of kings.

I just refuted your ideas from the Bible.

12 minutes ago, garee said:

God is not a creation made form the rudiments of this world  no matter how many times you desire he was created. 

What a ridiculous comment.  I never made any such suggestion.  It seems you are not understanding anything I have posted.

btw, ALL 3 Members of the Trinity were involved in original creation.  Apparently you are unaware of that.

Who taught you that Jesus Christ is not fully God?  Whoever it is, you need to get as far away from that false teacher as quickly as you can.

[garee]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

First of you never have answered how it is that even with two raptures all the saints can not come back with Jesus at the second coming.. The OT saints are not raptured nor the trib saints according to pre trib..so they aren’t up in heaven to return with Jesus.. It’s not just saints from Pentecost till before the tribulation that come back with him .. the bride consists of both old and New Testament saints so in pre trib all the saints CANNOT come back with him .. trib saints have not even died yet and the pre trib resurrection has allegedly taken place.. you can’t resurrect and rapture trib saints before they even die.. that is what resurrection is - people who have died brought back to life- so pre trib is contrary to both  and Paul and Zech who said when the lord comes all the saints will be with him.. CANNOT  work according to pre trib

 

Exactly the Amil works the best 

Those who teach now you see them now you do not now they are back .

When does the believer receive the new incorruptible bodies that will never die or grow old. .Those  no longer under the Sun that all die not receiving not even knowing what they will be as sons of God ?  

Will they be in the new incorruptible bodies  when raptured or still in thier corrupted flesh and blood that could never enter heaven .

Where do the bodies of flesh go when some disappear and then return ?  

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is

 

[Marathoner]

There's a considerable amount of off-topic back and forth going on. If anyone wishes to discuss something other than the Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture then by all means, do so elsewhere. Thanks! 

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

All the saints will come back with Jesus from heaven..

Agreed

When zech. And Paul said he would return with all the saints he did not mean part of the saints… saints who lived from Pentecost to before the tribulation are not all the saints.. those are part of the saints.. the saints that are missing is the OT saints and the tribulation saints.. they will not come with Jesus at the second coming according to pre trib doctrine.. the pre trib doctrine does not provide a rapture for the  OT saints or the tribulation saints so that makes  pre trib in violation of scripture.. when God said he would come with all his saints that means all these saints must be raptured.. The true bride descending down from consists of both old and New Testament saints.. pre trib does not agree with the definition of the bride given in scripture because when they say they are the bride they do not even consist of all the New Testament saints because pre trib cannot have tribulation saints or Old Testament saints in the bride but rather only have those from Pentecost to before the tribulation as the bride- but this is not the bride… as defined in scripture - this is only part of the bride pre trib is wrong- zech and Paul and Jesus and John are right..

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The Lord Himself comes for His bride the Church before the seals are opened. That is the pretribulation rapture.

The lord does not come before the seals.. the scripture says we will be changed at the last trump .. the opening of the seals is not the last trump.. when the 7th trumpet sounds it is THEN the time of the dead that they should be judged.. it is THEN when all the saints, the prophets, and them that fear thy name are rewarded.. all the saints are rewarded at the 7th trumpet means they weren’t rewarded before the 7 th trumpet..

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

How can what you are saying possibly be true if the dead in Christ rise first?

The dead ascend up first,, all are changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.. being changed does not mean ascend.. it means this mortal puts on immortality… look at the two prophets.. they were physically dead and then the spirit of life from God entered them and they stood upon their feet.. this was this change, putting on immortal bodies, happens to both the living and the dead at the same time but the dead ROSE up or was caught up before the living was… the distinction is that the dead was caught up before the living but both put on immortality at the same time…